new eZip motor

john61ct said:

Wow, unexpected.

Purists will never be satisfied, but buying from a Canadian company shojld be good enough for most.

One day the Chinese will control the maple syrup monopoly worldwide. Would probably be great for the consumer

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Only for their hip pocket. You heard of the melamine in baby formula scandle? It's why a $30 tin of baby formula in Australa, commands $130-180 in China. That's before the horse meat in beef, Hep-A in vegetables grown with recycled human effluent...

Don't get me wrong. I buy from China. My track record is about one dodgy in about 15 orders, even with my excessive due diligence. But I know caveat emptor applies 10x more than a local ebay purchase, and 100x more than a physical shop purchase.

Now there's rumours than Italy donated medical equipment to China in Jan, and now China is selling the same equipment back to Italy. Could be false, but if it's true, I reckon the party to win the next election will be whoever can think of the most punitive way to respond to China.

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns.

Thanks Sunder. I was looking into Those good batteries you posted quite awhile back and I reposted it. Think it was like 240 for 20.

That fast charge chemistry is LTO, very different from LFP or any other LI, and very poor density.

Sunder can you link to your supply posts on those? lost track. . .

latecurtis said:

It really don't make sense why the same stuff we buy from there we could make here and not have to pay the freight bill to transport it thousands of miles

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Started as cheap labor. But now also they have the super-efficient supply-chain, Just In Time interconnects at very high density right with the manufacturing designers.

And less regs to deal with.

US business and lots of workers too, just don't want to deal with the low margins and real work of manufacturing anymore.

That genie's out of the bottle, not reversible I think.

The trend will be for our common people to equalize standard of living, downward, while the developing world comes up until they match. Fair enough I guess. . .

latecurtis said:

Different battery chemistry than Lithium ion. Was it Lithium iron phosphate. Full charge in 10 minutes I think and 10,000 charge cycles. Also high discharge rate.

I think it is ali express - made in China. I don't understand economics that well. I watch politics a little. It really don't make sense why the same stuff we buy from there we could make here and not have to pay the freight bill to transport it thousands of miles.

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Lithium Iron Phosphate or LiFePo4 is not fast charging and only lasts for 3000 or so cycles. Still a lot longer than LiPo and safer to boot. The chemistry I was talking about was Lithium Titanate Oxide, or LTO. That's the one with the 10C (6 minute) charge, and 10,000 cycle lifetime. The down side is that it's more expensive and much heavier per watt hour.

Why aren't all these products made in Western countries? Two reasons:

1. Lake Baotou is reason number one. There's no chance this place would be accepted or legal in any Western country.


In the few cases where we do mine, process and produce rare earths and heavy metals, very strict regulations, both on staff and the environment blow the costs out extensively. Really expensive to suit someone out in full hazmat gear and buy them health insurance against possible cancer later. In China, if you're with a good employer, you might get some rubber gloves and a disposable mask at the start of each shift.

2. These women are willing to work for about $1.75 an hour, for 11 hour shifts.


Pretty sure not many Americans are willing to work for that little.

john61ct said:

That fast charge chemistry is LMO, very different from LFP or any other LI, and very poor density.

Sunder can you link to your supply posts on those? lost track. . .

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Which supply posts? To the cells? To the BMS? Something else?

Whoops LTO. Yes cells, but reco for reliable BMS / balancers would be good.

Custom pack builders?

^Be your own pack builder!

Especially when cheaping out, but if you got the money then yeah outsource it and spend the extra peso's amigo.

https://www.dhgate.com/product/10pcs-2-3v-66160-40ah-35ah-30ah-lto-bater/530219905.html?f=bm%7cGMC%7cpla%7c1471809117%7c59782623991%7c530219905%7cpla-294573402136%7c103006001%7cUS%7cliuzedongkkkk%7cc%7c2%7c&utm_source=pla&utm_medium=GMC&utm_campaign=liuzedongkkkk&utm_term=530219905&gclid=Cj0KCQjwybD0BRDyARIsACyS8mv230SqD_ZCvRtspvLNjPJvUxUExOBTR7ys8mLd9L36KcUKpc9Rhh4aAlBSEALw_wcB

I did a google search.

I need to do more searches.

AMAZING !!! Started out 5 or 6 years ago with lead ASS batteries. WOW. I was scared to death of LiPo for a long time.

How much superior this type of battery chemistry really is. I wish I ordered to start. Money I spent on cheap SLA and LiPo could had REAL batteries.

Thanks and any links to this battery type greatly appreciated. I got about 6 working e bikes and big plans for more. However need this new battery chemistry to continue.

Thanks so much guys and let me know what is out there when you can.



I cant stop drooling. I watched a video on youtube of that bike being converted to electric. That is gorgeous. Thanks

LC out.

john61ct said:

Whoops LTO. Yes cells, but reco for reliable BMS / balancers would be good.

Custom pack builders?

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So I've bought 4 sets of LTO cells, 3 from OSN Power:

https://www.osnpower.com/lto-batteries_c10

They are not the cheapest and have high minimum orders, but they were recommended by another forum member, and they professional and trustworthy. First time I paid by Paypal to be safe, following two by international money transfer. Every time they shipped within 3 days, their customs agent did everything, and the boxes just turned up on my doorstep within 2 weeks. (Maybe a touch more. Probably longer for you guys, since Shenzhen to Sydney is shorter than Shenzhen to America by sea)

They also run an Alibaba store if you want to pay a bit more for trade assurance: https://osn.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-812270920/LTO_2_3V_2_4V_battery_cell.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.88.26.3d191f53XpXoyP

Oh, someone did ask about alternative suppliers for 18650 LTO. OSN is one of them, but I haven't bought that particular product: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/OSN-POWER-lto-18650-Battery-2_60785077237.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.6b942112LEpbho

Because I needed a really small order that OSN couldn't do, I took a punt on Shenzhen Fuxiang https://gtkpower.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2756.trade-order-list.0.0.75c776e9I3xT2q&tracelog=from_orderlist_company

They are one of many "sales fronts" with very variable reputations, all for GTK - the manufacturer. The practice doesn't seem uncommon in China, with QS Motor doing the same thing. I worried a bit about this order, as last time I tried to deal with another front (Shenzhen Foxell), they shafted me, and I had to wait over 60 days to get my money back through Alibaba.

Shenzhen Fuxiang were okay though. Slow to ship, but the products were close to what I ordered (Lowest capacity cell was 3850mah for a 4Ah claimed capacity). Worryingly, when I unwrapped the cells, they smelt of that sweet ester smell, but I inspected every cell for leaks, and couldn't find any, and within 48 hours, the smell had gone. So it could have just been contamination caught in the shrink wrap.

In terms of BMS, I've had 4 ANT BMSes and they've all been rock solid. I've bought from IC GoGoGo. Again, poor communication, and slow shipping, but everything got here, and everything worked.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32997552090.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.5a0ae4db0ZwRZV&algo_pvid=eccb1ee1-9e3b-496f-bdb1-530f02e2243c&algo_expid=eccb1ee1-9e3b-496f-bdb1-530f02e2243c-0&btsid=0ab6fab215862583207685861e93e8&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

In terms of pack builders, sorry, I build everything myself. Shenzhen Fuxiang do make protected LTO packs, not just cells, so if you are not too picky about exact size or dimensions, you might be able to find something close enough.

latecurtis said:

I cant stop drooling. I watched a video on youtube of that bike being converted to electric. That is gorgeous. Thanks

LC out.

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Since we're talking about drooling, I've been dreaming about tweaking my ride, even though it's perfectly fine. I've had thoughts of lacing a Q100H into a carbon fibre aero rim. I overtook another rider on the flat once, but on the down hill, he was straight past me again. He'd obviously designed for drag. Aero wheels, profile bars, deep v rims. I wasn't that shocked that he passed me. My motor caps out in the high 40s (km/h, not mph). But what shocked me was that I was going 58km/h down the hill, and he passed me like I was standing still. At those speeds, aero must make a huge amount of difference.

So I was thinking maybe Q100H into aero rim, move the whole lot to my Specialized Tarmac (basically somewhere between a road bike and a race bike), and see how much more efficient it is. Get closer to the motor's unloaded speed, maybe even play around with field weakening to get a bit of extra top speed.

It's an incredibly expensive bike to trash though: $6k USD RRP when new. I bought it second hand and paid nothing near that ($1200 USD - poor guy had back problems, and like me, he's a bit taller than average, so had a hard time selling it, so let it go cheap). Went for a ride on it this morning just to get some exercise. Stopped by a river.

I always liked Specialized. However would never pay that much for any bike.

Happy Birthday!

latecurtis said:

My stuff is still in storage in upstate NY. After a certain hour you can get a $1,000 fine for being out. I talked to my friends who lived downstairs from where I lived there. I might end up paying storage the rest of my life. I will never give up on my stuff as long as I am alive.

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At some point it might be worth just letting go of it, and getting new stuff. Not sure what you're paying for storage per month, but it's been over a year now, right? If you think it's going to be another, maybe remember what you had in there, and decide to stop paying storage, and save up to replace them instead. A waste, yes, but less of a waste of money.

latecurtis said:

PS. What really gets me is the economy. I do not fully understand economics that much but do know that a lot of it makes no sense. For example Why would someone burn hundreds of gallons of fossil fuel to haul a truckload of potatoes 500 miles or 1,000 miles from Idaho when anyone could grow them in their backyard or build a green house like DA has.

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It's called specialisation of labour, and economies of scale. I do some really esoteric stuff. It takes years to learn to do what I do, and not everyone has the mindset or personality to do it. I could grow my own potatoes. There is some skill in doing that. But in the amount of time it takes me to grow 10kg of potatoes in one season, I could probably buy several tonnes of potatoes. Add to that a farmer already with the right knowledge, the right equipment and the right contacts, could grow easily 1000x as many potatoes as I could for the same amount of effort.

Even after you add in a trucker's time, the cost of the truck, the cost of fuel, the retailers, etc. Still cheaper.

latecurtis said:

Why can't we make everything we impost from China in every country. Would that give everybody a job. Import and export could happen between states that border each other but limited and use electric vehicles. Oil companies could build solar panels and small efficient EVs.

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Same thing on a global scale, but add in all sorts of complicating natural advantages - like a cheap uneducated labour force in China, and a lack of care for the environment. We covered this already. I might add that there is only so much labour and resources available in the US and Australia, so if we made solar panels here, we might be pulling farm hands from farms, and assigning them to solar panel factories. Now some land sits idle, and there's less potatoes to go around.

latecurtis said:

What really gets me is I have not heard anything about a technology that could possibly cure any virus. Nanotechnology. Scientists have been working on it for decades. They talk about a vaccine ? REALLY !!!!! How can it work if the virus mutates. I think The governments just dont want to cure it. My sister works in an ER in Michigan. She says nanotechnology is science fiction. Well I am sure 100 years ago just about any modern medical equipment such as X ray machines was also Science fiction. Same with cell phones. The original Star Trek invented them. lol .

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It depends on what part mutates. If you programmed a body guard robot to automatically shoot anyone who has a gun, then switching from a Browning to a Colt is unlikely to stop the robot doing its job. But switching from a rifle to a derringer will probably make the robot ignore that person.

Same with the vaccine. I believe current attempts are to target the spike protein that attaches to the ACE2 receptors on cells. If the vaccine is successful in targeting that, then it will be valid for all viruses which enter the cell through that receptor.

latecurtis said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koxdcMVnDA4

Whats up with that ???? You wont see that on the news !!! Does governments really want a cure ????? I wonder.

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Yes you will: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8226899/Injection-decoy-proteins-stop-coronavirus-infecting-cells-body.html

They use different words to describe the same process. By the way it has nothing to do with stem cell research.

Very cool. Thank you for that feed back.

As the Hub Motor turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. We got an extra 2,400 bucks thanks to our great president Donald Trump. He just won my vote for re election.

Good to hear your stimulus came through. Make sure your old lady gets her fair share of it, and it's not all about getting you a van and an eBike.

Yeah, I'd love to get a proper full suspension mountain bike and go trail riding. But I know I'd go riding a couple times a year at most.
We still have the right to work from home, and now allowed to move around a bit more. I was thinking of heading up to my dad's hobby farm. No trails there, but some nice dirt roads through parklands with very few cars that would serve well as an alternative.

3000 Watt. You're going to need some pretty decent batteries and controller for that. Small rows of 18650s aren't going to power that. If you use bigger 21700s, Samsung's 40T can do 25A, so if you're building a 48v battery, 13 x 3 of those will do. You'll need something way better than the Vruzend connectors though. They're good for 5A each, and you want to carry 65A over 3 rows, so at least 21A each, more than 4x the rating

The reality is though, unless you have the aerodynamic profile of a house, 3000W will only be short bursts as you start the bike or go up hills. For a mountain biker to cruise 40mph, you need about 1700w at the wheels, so slightly over 2000w at the battery.

A lot to think about there - especially if you want your pack to last. It'll be an engineering challenge where going cheap or designing poorly will result in pretty ordinary outcomes.

When you're ready, post some ideas, and we can offer suggestions to improve it. Or I can post some later when I have more time.

Hope life's treating you reasonably well.

those batteries that charge in 10 minutes were lithium iron phosphate right.

It is impossible to obtain a motor vehicle now as they are closed and not issuing tags due to the pandemic. I will be ordering batteries the first of next month as this month am attempting to get my accounts in order and in place to save money for either a motor vehicle , a new apartment or mobile home or a burial fund in case I do not survive I do not wish to burden my family in any way.

Since I have an existing e bike built and my battery packs are years old and probably close to 1,000 charge cycles I will need the better batteries capable of 10, 000 charge cycles and 10 minute charge capabilities. It only makes sense and a large enough pack should work as well with my 500 watt geared e bikeling motor as well as the 3,000W brushless power house I want for my next build.

I know you posted links before but times do change and hopefully there is a USA warehouse or warehouse somewhere that is NOT in China. The warehouse NOT in China preferably USA made or UK or even Japan or Australia As long as not from China.

I am willing to spend between 200 and 300 for lithium iron phosphate batteries. Thanks.

LC. out.

No LTO is the fast charging chemistry.

LFP needs to be really nice and warm to charge faster than in a couple hours

without reducing lifespan.

$1/Ah per cell delivered would be a real challenge to get good quality in good condition, unless you get very lucky.

If I were in the US, these cells would be gone faster than a bat out of hell.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-LTO-Battery-Cells-34-in-total-45W-2-3V/324162455611?hash=item4b7996883b:g:kyoAAOSworxeuKdI

They look to be original 20Ah (hence 46Wh) Toshiba (Japanese made) SCiBs from one of the early generation iMievs, before they changed battery chemistry.

Brand new, these retail for $20USD each + shipping, so assuming they work at all, to get 34 of them used for $40 is dirt cheap. (No doubt now I've posted them on this forum, I'll probably start a bidding war).

With 34, you could make 2 x 36v batteries out of them. Each with 690wh, assuming they are all good. Or you could do a 48v battery with some spare to weed out weaker cells, etc.

no word on condition though, could be scrap

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EBIKE-BATTERY-LITHIUM-Li-Ion-36V20AH-Bicycle-E-Bike-Motor-Electric-Scooter-Power/293382740325?hash=item444ef95965%3Ag%3Agt8AAOSwzTFeXmUr&LH_BIN=1&LH_ItemCondition=3

https://www.ebay.com/itm/36v-14Ah-rechargeable-battery-pack-li-ion-bicycle-500W-E-BIke-electric-charger/174244256238?hash=item2891c459ee%3Ag%3AgvIAAOSw7ZRc6M2u&LH_BIN=1&LH_ItemCondition=3


Two of those would be 28 Ah.

Not sure if any one has any experience using either of those batteries ?

So not interested in the bargain LTO's I linked? Looks like John61ct is the only bidder, so still $40.

As long as there are enough good cells in there to build at least 1 x 36v battery, you'll never get a deal like that again.

The bad description works in your favour, because if you didn't recognise the source of the batteries like I did, most buyers would steer clear.

Like John61ct said though, no word on the condition, and one of the packs does say "bad cell" on it. But that is very unlikely to be all cells in the pack. LTOs are that tough.

I haven't bid

john61ct said:

I haven't bid

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Ah, the bid appeared around about the same time as your PM so I assumed it was you.

Shipping is 108 bucks and then will need to do a lot of solder work and not sure about a BMS. I am not even close to having an e bike work shop. I live in a third floor attic studio.

Right now I need a 16 or 20 Ah pack that can plug and play. I ran the old packs which are still good for 10 miles, 5 miles on the 4P SONAs and 5 miles on the 6P SAMSUNGs. The SONAS seem to have more power going up hills but both are good for 5 miles. They are many years old and been run hard probably more than 500 cycles possibly closer to 700 or 800.

With a fresh 16 or 20 Ah pack I will have at least 20 miles if I run the old packs 10 miles and the new 16 or 18 Ah packs back.

I might buy the two 14 Ah packs for 28 Ah. Not sure.

Has anybody ordered any of the packs I posted ?

Thanks.

LC out.

latecurtis said:

Shipping is 108 bucks and then will need to do a lot of solder work and not sure about a BMS. I am not even close to having an e bike work shop. I live in a third floor attic studio.

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Ouch. Considering it can easily go by ground transport, no idea why shipping would be that much.

The packs are actually screw based - no soldering, no spot welding. All assembled through screws only.

As long as you use the right sized charger, you don't necessarily need a BMS. You use one of these per cell:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-3-5cm-Universal-2-7V-500F-Super-Capacitor-Balancing-Protection-Board/132105234835?hash=item1ec215e993:g:AfMAAOSw2iJbFJlP



and an appropriate fuse. Why? Think of all the failure modes:

1. Dead short - Fuse will take care of it.
2. Unbalanced cells - Those protection boards will take care of it.
3. Overdischarge - LTO doesn't care- no damage.
4. Overcharge - Damage doesn't occur until about 3v, so you'd really need to stuff up to damage your cells, and even then, it's only capacity loss. No fires.

But if you aren't keen on building your own pack, I won't push.

Regarding the packs you linked: The 14Ah Okoman one looks dodgy as hell. Bad photoshop, fake 5 star feedback, (they actually have a rating of 57%!) The 20AH Cao MM one looks legit - The weight and dimensions look right for the claimed capacity, power output looks reasonable, etc.

I am thinking of building a booster pack for my car. As the battery hits 5 years old, the capacity is still there, but the power capability has dropped, so that it has to start the generator up moderately steep hills. An 80 or 160 cell high current 18650 pack could probably be built for under a grand. I bought a really cheap spot welder, which I thought would be easier than soldering that many batteries. I'll let you know how easy it is to use. Might allow you to build packs out of quality cells cheaper than buying them online, and less risk. Sony VTC6s can be got online for under $5 each, and they are tried and true tested not just new, but they hold their capacity and power rating to 800 cycles.

Should finish off my motorcycle project first though. Too many half finished hobby projects.