MAC motor worth it?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
markz   100 GW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by markz » Apr 26 2020 8:49pm

Bullfrog wrote:
Apr 26 2020 8:30pm
Amberwolf...I am with you on unfinished projects :lol: .
I am just too lazy and too cheap to get unfinished projects completed.

I just noticed today that I have about 4 or 5 broken spokes on my rear Hub motor. Which means I got to buy 12g spokes locally or probably throw them in with my new battery purchase from www.ebikes.ca Grintech.

I am normally able to wing together something from parts to get riding again on my ebike. But this time, no. The Cyclone 4kw needs a new fw crank and arms to get rolling. Then I think I should buy the cast rim from Leaf, its 19" but then I wont be having no more broken spoke problem which has plagued me riding rear hub cuz I am so fuckingfat. Well My fats stretched out, just a big mofo I am.

donn   10 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by donn » Apr 26 2020 9:49pm

Ow, Bullfrog. Ow. If you happen to be somewhat tall and thin, maybe you can use my armor jacket and pants from when I had a motorcycle. Boots, too, and gloves with hard caps on the knuckles.

colsaunders2   1 mW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by colsaunders2 » Apr 27 2020 6:35am

Bullfrog wrote:
Apr 26 2020 8:30pm
colsaunders2...what about a MAC build for use on hard packed and/or paved surfaces or a BBSHD with a high amperage controller? Just don't follow my example below.
My prior experience is all TSDZ2, so this is a bit out of my wheelhouse :warn:

I imagine that a GMAC 10T with tubeless rim/tire combo and torque-sensing BB would feel superior until thermal throttling kicked in :flame: but the BBSHD would have nearly double the wheel torque in low gear, assuming both were paired with a Phaserunner (RIP cassettes). Justin mentioned yesterday in his presentation that they're looking at oil/liquid cooling for the GMAC since it's properly sealed, so a 2000W+ MAC might be possible (without overheating) after all?
...well I should have stuck with my 26x3.8" Maxxis FBR. Mounted a new Vee Apache Fatty Slick that is 26x4.5" to get the rolling resistance down and at 15 psi (minimum inflation pressure) I went around a corner at about 30 mph and the rear end slid out with the asphalt coming up to meet me very rapidly
Oof! I slid across the pavement going 20 mph last fall; didn't break anything but donated a bit of skin from either arm and spent 2 months in physical therapy for my shoulder. Since then, I have been a proponent of cornering at 15 mph and saving speed for the straightaways. I've got Schwalbe Energizer Plus 40-622 on a rigid commuter frame; still have to watch for bumps/potholes/cracks in the road but glad I'm no longer running 32mm WTB Slicks.

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Bullfrog » Apr 27 2020 9:49am

That was a great presentation wasn't it :D ...when Justin was talking about somebody oil cooling and "water" cooling a MAC, he was talking about me. He helped me a lot as far as figuring out how to plan my experiments. IMO oil and water cooling can work for a MAC/GMAC but they both have unique challenges. After having done it, IMO it is a lot easier to just limit your speed and/or run a smaller diameter wheel/tire so you don't overheat the MAC.

Here is a link to some of the water cooling and clutch info with pics: viewtopic.php?t=104226
and
Here is a link to the Low Viscosity ATF experiments...my experimental data is on page 77 of the thread: viewtopic.php?t=48753&start=1900

IMO the guy that built a custom shroud to pump air through his MAC would be a real good option...no chance of leaking any fluid. Air cooling doesn't work as good as liquid cooling but it is a lot simpler. If I could get one of his shrouds I would run it and use a K&N filter to remove any debris from the incoming air. His info and pics are towards the top of page 77 of the same thread.

donn....Thank You but I have the safety gear, just foolishly didn't put it on since I was only going to ride about a 1/2 mile. ATGATT (All the Gear All the Time) would have been the smart thing to do but noooo and I paid for it.

markz...check with "Balmorhea" (that is the name he uses on this forum), he has a source for spokes that are 13/14 gauge and you can get them custom made to whatever length you need and they are fairly inexpensive. Nice thing about them necking down is you can get better tension in the spokes which makes a wheel that doesn't tend to loosen up over time. Probably not a good idea to run different spokes in a perfect world but "different" would be better than a missing spoke :lol: . Read somewhere that one broken spoke is OK, two broken spokes isn't good but still OK, three broken spokes and you should get it fixed :D . I weigh about 210 lbs with all my gear on and I beat the crap out of my bikes (all hardtails)...I run 13 gauge Sapin spokes with the nipples that have a hemispherical contact surface against the rim (I think)...all from EM3ev and they seem to hold up nicely. Of course I re-tighten them after riding for a little while when the wheel is new. I use the tone they make after tapping them with a wrench to get tension fairly equal as opposed to a fancy tension gauge which would be better if I wasn't soo "thrify" :lol: . You probably already know all of this...but maybe a newbie reading it will learn something :wink: .

NEW PROJECT #1...after I get these stitches out :lol: . Just received my 8T MAC from EM3ev and I plan to run it with a 12 FET (IRFB3077 FETs) controller programmed for 50A battery and 140A phase current. Along with a 14s6p (25r cells) battery. The controller comes programmed to the max that EM3ev recommends which is 40A/112A.QUESTION...has anybody run a 12 FET controller above 40A/112A and if yes, how did it work?

Project #2...Try my 12T MAC on 72v. If anybody has tried a 12T MAC on 72v, I'd sure like to hear your results. From what I have been able to find, the core losses start to stack up a little too much if you spin a MAC over about 400 rpms but that is the older MAC with thicker laminations...haven't been able to find any data on the newer MAC with 0.27mm laminations (decreases eddy current losses) that might even use higher quality steel (decrease hysteresis losses).

Thanks everyone :D .
Last edited by Bullfrog on May 08 2020 11:18am, edited 1 time in total.

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Bullfrog » Apr 27 2020 10:04am

Reasonable_Echidna...just sent you a Private Message.

I apologize for posting so much on the thread you started but I get excited talking about the MAC :lol: .

IMO it is the best motor known to man as long as you keep the power levels low enough so that it doesn't over heat.

There are better options for "off road" (BBSHD) and "high speeds" (Direct Drive Hub Motor) but a 10T MAC is the best solution for a lot of DIY ebikers...IMO :D .

Stu Summer   100 W

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Stu Summer » Apr 27 2020 12:46pm

I have a 5T Mac in a front LWB recumbent (Ryan Vanguard). I like everything about it except the whine, which is loud (especially with the winter fairing on. Statement: It would be much quieter in the rear. Question: How and how frequently do I lube a Mac? Could low lube be part of it loudness?
2013 DB Haanjo Commuter with BBSHD and Zzipper fairing
Marin Rift Zone FS with BBSHD
Kysmo "lab" bike with 350w hub motor
Ryan Vanguard recumbent LWB with a 36v Cyclone 350w middrive and a 56v MAC 5t in the front hub.

markz   100 GW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by markz » Apr 27 2020 1:45pm

Stu Summer wrote:
Apr 27 2020 12:46pm
I have a 5T Mac in a front LWB recumbent (Ryan Vanguard). I like everything about it except the whine, which is loud (especially with the winter fairing on. Statement: It would be much quieter in the rear. Question: How and how frequently do I lube a Mac? Could low lube be part of it loudness?
It is the gears that make some of the noise, if you use a sinewave controller it will reduce the noise level. Its been mentioned here on endless sphere in various threads.

colsaunders2   1 mW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by colsaunders2 » Apr 27 2020 3:56pm

Bullfrog wrote:
Apr 27 2020 9:49am
That was a great presentation wasn't it :D ...when Justin was talking about somebody oil cooling and "water" cooling a MAC, he was talking about me. He helped me a lot as far as figuring out how to plan my experiments. IMO oil and water cooling can work for a MAC/GMAC but they both have unique challenges. After having done it, IMO it is a lot easier to just limit your speed and/or run a smaller diameter wheel/tire so you don't overheat the MAC.
Neat! I had read your post before but didn't make the connection. I like the MAC 8T at stock power (33 mph @ 52V w/ 30 amp controller); just needs some tuning especially on starts. Not sure whether I should bother hacking my "094110ST" (9x 4110 infineon?) or just drop the cash on a Baserunner_L10. I'll pass on the CA3 but would jump for a bluetooth/app dashboard.
From what I have been able to find, the core losses start to stack up a little too much if you spin a MAC over about 400 rpms but that is the older MAC with thicker laminations...haven't been able to find any data on the newer MAC with 0.27mm laminations (decreases eddy current losses) that might even use higher quality steel (decrease hysteresis losses).
Curiously, the Motor Simulator's model for the GMAC doesn't match Grin's advertised specs (assume they copied the data from the older MAC). Here's an RPM-matched comparison of the 10T: https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h ... throt_b=95
10T shows a 2% efficiency gain, 8T around 1.2%. We could be seeing 90%+ peak on the current gen with FOC.
Last edited by colsaunders2 on Apr 27 2020 4:00pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Bullfrog » Apr 27 2020 3:59pm

Stu Summer wrote:
Apr 27 2020 12:46pm
I have a 5T Mac in a front LWB recumbent (Ryan Vanguard). I like everything about it except the whine, which is loud (especially with the winter fairing on. Statement: It would be much quieter in the rear. Question: How and how frequently do I lube a Mac? Could low lube be part of it loudness?
Stu...are you sure it is a MAC? I wasn't aware they made anything faster than a 6T. Their current offerings are 6T, 8T, 10T, and 12T. I'd lube the gears with Mobil 1 SHC 100...use just enough to fill the teeth on the ring gear, you don't need a lot.

All MACs have a 5:1 reduction via the planetary gearing.

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Bullfrog » Apr 27 2020 4:03pm

Contributor to my crash yesterday....got to thinking about what happened and there wasn't that much debris on the road and I hve made the same turn many times at faster speeds with different tires.

The Durometer reading that Vee Tire states is 57. I measured it with my Durometer and I get 72-73...so pretty hard rubber was a contributor. Me not wearing any of my gear except a helmet was foolish regardless :wink: .

After the hard rubber and previous Vee Tires that came apart....don't think I could recommend Vee Tire Co.

Schwalbe and Maxxis....always had good results with both :D .

colsaunders2   1 mW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by colsaunders2 » May 02 2020 7:09pm

Well, I had to ... sprung for the Baserunner and CA3-WP. I was unhappy with the Infineon's throttle response and wanted to see what the CA could do for PAS, not to mention having a real need for temperature control and electronic freewheeling. It will be interesting to see whether this franken-MAC has a built-in speed sensor or if I'll have to do some pole pair/wheel circumference hacking.

colsaunders2   1 mW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by colsaunders2 » May 23 2020 11:36pm

Update: Baserunner and CA3 installed successfully. This combo, without a doubt, destroys the generic Infineon boxes. Proportional regen, electronic freewheeling, and field weakening for the win - who knew that an 8T could hit 40 mph on the flats? :shock:

Setup was delayed due to my failure to understand basic soldering technique, resulting in melting one set of battery connectors :flame: :flame: Neither speed nor temperature reported... fired off an email to Grin and got a reply from Justin himself. Cue me doing a full teardown and realizing that the sensors simply didn't exist - odd that they would go through the trouble of stuffing an L1019 cable in there only to cheap out on the PCB. Blame it on Covid? Confirmed that I have a locked plate in lieu of a clutch - also looks like I have an "11T" with an apparent Kv of 10.58 per the autotune. Anyhow, I re-purposed a brake sensor for my speedometer and am holding off on modifying the CA3 in hopes of being able to use the 2-pin temperature sensor input instead.
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rheo   100 µW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by rheo » Feb 17 2021 12:29am

KarlJ wrote:
Feb 27 2020 9:35pm
MAC 10T for the win for sure.
40A controller and rear drive. 100% great combo have built more than a dozen
Hey I just noticed your in Melbourne. Is that Melbourne Australia? If so - where are you getting your 10T Mac motors from?

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Bullfrog » Feb 17 2021 8:37am

colsaunders2....Where did you buy your MAC and what turn "T" was it advertised to be?

I bought a "locked plate" like in your motor from EM3ev back when they were selling MACs but I have note installed it yet. I am curious to see if it works with my rear freewheel (not cassette) motor.

AHicks   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by AHicks » Feb 17 2021 9:43am

Here's a thought. I absolutely LOVE my MAC 12t for my application. Unfortunately they seem to have disappeared on the market for some weird reason.

My question is, would there be any way to install a clutch in a GMAC motor to take advantage of the design changes (torque arm and cable exit location)?

If that might be possible, where can you source/who is selling MAC parts?

Thanks!

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Bullfrog » Feb 17 2021 10:08am

AHicks wrote:
Feb 17 2021 9:43am
Here's a thought. I absolutely LOVE my MAC 12t for my application. Unfortunately they seem to have disappeared on the market for some weird reason.

My question is, would there be any way to install a clutch in a GMAC motor to take advantage of the design changes (torque arm and cable exit location)?

If that might be possible, where can you source/who is selling MAC parts?

Thanks!
I am pretty sure you can NOT install a MAC clutch in a GMAC...different diameter axles and different keys holding the clutch to the axle. That is my memory based on wanting to go the other way i.e. a GMAC plate in a MAC.

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by amberwolf » Feb 17 2021 2:03pm

I'm sure you *could* install *a* clutch into a GMAC (just not a plain old MAC clutch), but you would probably have to design it and have it manufactured; I doubt there's an off the shelf part that would just pop in there. It also may require changes to other structures inside the GMAC depending on how it's made inside (I have not seen it's internals).

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Bullfrog » Feb 17 2021 5:02pm

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 17 2021 2:03pm
I'm sure you *could* install *a* clutch into a GMAC (just not a plain old MAC clutch), but you would probably have to design it and have it manufactured; I doubt there's an off the shelf part that would just pop in there. It also may require changes to other structures inside the GMAC depending on how it's made inside (I have not seen it's internals).
Anything is possible given enough time and money :D .

1boris   100 W

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by 1boris » Feb 22 2021 9:32pm

ebikesolutions sell Mac motors 250 w and 500 w.both are same motors just diffrent markings.They call it Puma

https://www.ebike-solutions.com/en/shop ... otors/?p=2

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by Bullfrog » Feb 23 2021 8:57am

1boris wrote:
Feb 22 2021 9:32pm
ebikesolutions sell Mac motors 250 w and 500 w.both are same motors just diffrent markings.They call it Puma

https://www.ebike-solutions.com/en/shop ... otors/?p=2
Thank You Very Much.

Just figured out they are quite pricey (over $500 USD plus shipping) and don't ship to the US :cry: .

2old   100 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by 2old » Feb 23 2021 12:37pm

Eunorau used to sell a MAC (12T AIR), but it's not on their site now. They have brushless, geared, cassette motors (500w) listed, but don't specify the "T". Why isn't the MAC readily available?

1boris   100 W

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by 1boris » Feb 23 2021 3:02pm

sorry ,didnt know they dont shipp to USA.Yes they are extremely pricey.
What about the mxus xf19c motor,i belive it is stronger and can take more power.Also you can order the speed you want.
I ordered mine from here:
MXUS EBIKE CONVERSION KIT
Claire Jin
Skype: mxus021
Mail: Claire@mxusebikekit.com
Mob: +86-13585320165
Website: mxusebikekit.com

markz   100 GW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by markz » Feb 23 2021 5:43pm

Why isn't the MAC readily available?
Well with everything going on, doesnt take much to put a ripple in the supply chain and the delivery chain and the production chain.

2old   100 kW

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by 2old » Feb 23 2021 8:45pm

markz wrote:
Feb 23 2021 5:43pm
Why isn't the MAC readily available?
Well with everything going on, doesnt take much to put a ripple in the supply chain and the delivery chain and the production chain.
I realize that, but it seems as though em3ev was selling them, and no other company picked up the slack when em3ev went "battery-only" or whatever. Just seems like some company should be selling them even if the supply chain is impaired. I'm not trying to argue, but might have been interested in a rear motor, but looks like that's not possible.

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Re: MAC motor worth it?

Post by AHicks » Feb 23 2021 9:05pm

2old wrote:
Feb 23 2021 12:37pm
Eunorau used to sell a MAC (12T AIR), but it's not on their site now. They have brushless, geared, cassette motors (500w) listed, but don't specify the "T". Why isn't the MAC readily available?
They still have this one showing (MAC 8t), but it appears to be part of a bundle - and that bundle uses a controller with no display, or lead for a display.

https://eunorau-ebike.com/collections/b ... kit-45km-h

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