Tire inside tire any tips

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 22 2022 2:46pm

I'm getting ready to put a tire inside a tire then an extra thick storm-proof slime to on a older XTR front Rim with flat spokes with Rim brakes. And going to use rim glue . Any tips

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10672
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by Chalo » Jun 22 2022 3:38pm

Choose one. Don't use glop if you're going to double up the tire. Also, slime will defeat glue, so don't bother using both.

Are you sure you need to glue your tire on? If the tire and rim are clean and not fouled with sealant, and the tire has adequate pressure, it won't slip. But add some leaked sealant and let your pressure get low, and you're asking for trouble.

Use a slick treaded tire for a liner. Make it .25" to .5" smaller in width than the outer tire. Cut the wires off without removing more sidewall fabric than necessary. Then tuck in the liner tire and center it before you tuck in the tube.

I recently got a flat tire on my cargo bike because of a long thin steel wire that worked its way through the armored tire. I used the opportunity to try out a Tannus Armour liner, which is sort of like using a tire as a liner, but thicker and squishier. So far so good. It does ride softer, but it also drags noticeably more now when coasting.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 22 2022 4:51pm

I think you're right I think I had a tear at the base of the slime tube and when I put on the brakes the wet slime let the tire and tube to rotate 12in up and crashed my bike hitting my head and breaking my collarbone woke up in the hospital. I had rip the rear valve stem off with 5.000watts. But the front with high quality xtr front rim doesn't doesn't make sense ???
So I must cut the steel wire out sounds messy I will go without the extra tire. I was only going to glue the bead to the rim with contentail rim glue with extra thick slime tube.
I might be over thinking this. But 3 weeks mending my collarbone. Can't even sleep in my bed.



Plus I'm scared.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 22 2022 5:55pm

The tire is a serfas drifter.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10672
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by Chalo » Jun 22 2022 6:58pm

If you don't want to mod a slick tire like a WTB Thick Slick or a Schwalbe Kojak for user as a liner, consider Tannus Armour. It's 15mm thick at the tread center and wraps all the way around the sidewalls. It's lighter than a similarly protective liner tire, too.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
spinningmagnets   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12734
Joined: Dec 21 2007 10:27pm
Location: Ft Riley, NE Kansas

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Jun 22 2022 9:10pm

Ive wondered about putting a solid foam tire inside a larger tire with a ghetto-tubeless setup.

If the solid foam was a standard 2-inch wide to fill in a standard tire, and a 3-inch tire would have an inch of air-cusion to have a normal feel to the ride, and the 2-inch foam would allow you to ride home (slowly) on a flat tire.

I'm sure it would be off-balance at high speed, but it could be a useful option for a 20-mph commuter, where a flat would make you late for work.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 22 2022 9:19pm

Spinning magnets good points But ghetto tubeless please. I use to live in a surf ghetto H.B. I was going to use a thick slime tube. Or with tuffy style liner ?

User avatar
E-HP   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3941
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by E-HP » Jun 22 2022 9:29pm

Chalo wrote:
Jun 22 2022 3:38pm
Choose one. Don't use glop if you're going to double up the tire. Also, slime will defeat glue, so don't bother using both.

Are you sure you need to glue your tire on? If the tire and rim are clean and not fouled with sealant, and the tire has adequate pressure, it won't slip. But add some leaked sealant and let your pressure get low, and you're asking for trouble.
I'm trying an old tube for a liner, and FlatOut in the tubes. Lasted six months so far, but don't think I've had a puncture either. I added air to the rear once. I got a CO2 inflator, assuming that the FlatOut works, to air the tire back up. It's just a matter of time/miles before I know whether the stuff works.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 22 2022 10:17pm

I'm not happy with thick slime tube as I got a staple and got a flat so walked it to a gas station a filled it up got 1 mile and flat again. So it still in the garage and still leaks.I just bought 4 . So have 2 more used but still good. As I had so many I just used new ones with new tire.

User avatar
E-HP   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3941
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by E-HP » Jun 22 2022 11:20pm

999zip999 wrote:
Jun 22 2022 10:17pm
I'm not happy with thick slime tube as I got a staple and got a flat so walked it to a gas station a filled it up got 1 mile and flat again. So it still in the garage and still leaks.I just bought 4 . So have 2 more used but still good. As I had so many I just used new ones with new tire.
When I was a kid, we used to put Prestone antifreeze in our tubes since most of the trails down by the river had goatheads. It worked well for stopping leaks from those small thorns. That's what slime reminds me of. Hard to imagine it working on a large puntrure. This FlatOut stuff has visible fibers, so it's like shredded kevlar suspended in some fluid. I actually want to see how it performs, and would rather it perform well :shock:

Nothing really has worked so far, besides being extra careful to avoid stuff.

scianiac   100 W

100 W
Posts: 101
Joined: Oct 24 2018 10:55am

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by scianiac » Jun 23 2022 8:50am

I think it may be interesting to note the differences between viscosity based sealants and latex based sealants. The stuff like Slime and Flatout just stays as slime, if I recall it's mostly PEG with some rubber bits and fibers. The latex based stuff like Stans is just liquid latex also sometimes with rubber bits and fibers.

The latex stuff once it's starts getting exposed to air and shooting out of a hole, the ammonia in it that is keeping the latex suspended starts evaporating and the latex starts turning into rubber. This of course seals the hole very well but I think there is another interesting thing to note here, if you get some latex stuff on the bead I think in many cases it has enough air exposure to just glue the bead together and not act as a lubricant like the PEG based stuff does. This is also why the latex based stuff goes bad eventually and just turns to latex inside your tire, the ammonia eventually leaks out, which you can actually add more ammonia to top it up instead of just adding more sealant.

I've seen a lot of people use various mixtures of the two with good results, the Flatout has amazing clogging properties with it's fibers and then mixing that with either a latex based sealant or just some liquid latex and ammonia. This is what I'm currently running but have not gotten a puncture yet so don't know how well it works.

In terms of max durability though I think a tubeless setup has potential, not because the sealant is some magic fix all, but because you can carry a tire plug tool and some bacon strips and just plug away. The issue there is then you probably should properly patch the tire when you get home which will be messy and annoying.

I think really if you get a lot of punctures the tube armor solution could be the best but we just don't have one that is good enough, many of the addon products seem to not provide enough puncture resistance or just operate on distance, a 2nd tire is not really designed for the purpose. Will somebody just make a ballistic kevlar or UHMWPE liner that is properly thick enough to stop everything. If they can make stab resistant vests out of it then surely it can't be that hard to stop a nail.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10672
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by Chalo » Jun 23 2022 9:12am

scianiac wrote:
Jun 23 2022 8:50am
Will somebody just make a ballistic kevlar or UHMWPE liner that is properly thick enough to stop everything. If they can make stab resistant vests out of it then surely it can't be that hard to stop a nail.
In my observation, no textile belt will stop a wire or a thorn. Those things push fibers aside. They work against things like sharp rocks or pieces of metal. Might help with nails and screws, but that would depend somewhat on how sharp and pointy they are.

I imagine that a liner that effectively prevented puncture by such things would resist conforming to the tire's shape, would gnaw holes in the tube, and would ride poorly. Two of these problems would be mitigated by using the belt inside the tire layup, rather than as an add-on.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

scianiac   100 W

100 W
Posts: 101
Joined: Oct 24 2018 10:55am

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by scianiac » Jun 23 2022 10:33am

Chalo wrote:
Jun 23 2022 9:12am
In my observation, no textile belt will stop a wire or a thorn. Those things push fibers aside. They work against things like sharp rocks or pieces of metal. Might help with nails and screws, but that would depend somewhat on how sharp and pointy they are.

I imagine that a liner that effectively prevented puncture by such things would resist conforming to the tire's shape, would gnaw holes in the tube, and would ride poorly. Two of these problems would be mitigated by using the belt inside the tire layup, rather than as an add-on.
Ah yeah wires will be tricky, although many ballistic fabrics actually have the fibers molded into a soft plastic binder, it would make it somewhat stiff which I agree could cause issues but may help with wires. And I agree perhaps putting such things into the tire would be good but I was thinking if the protection belt is an addon then it allows the belt to deform with the impact and push on the tube easier with more flexibility than if it was the tire, perhaps reducing the force that the piercing object has to pierce. Maybe there are some technical reasons you can't just use all aramid fiber in a tire at very high thread count and layers to make it super tough. Maybe it's just that such things haven't been developed because these problems are mostly for cyclists with our thin tires and riding on shoulders that collect sharp objects. What do I know, I'm no tire engineer.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 23 2022 4:14pm

Looking at the tannus Armour protector. They look and might fill soft with my rear at 5.000 watt or 45mph ? But do like these tires schwalbe pick up super defense or and kwick drumlin sport both e50 rated. ?

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10672
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by Chalo » Jun 23 2022 8:58pm

999zip999 wrote:
Jun 23 2022 4:14pm
Looking at the tannus Armour protector. They look and might fill soft with my rear at 5.000 watt or 45mph ?
I can't say, haven't been riding long enough on mine. Evidently they compress to a thinner size when the tire is left inflated for a while; the instructions include deflating the tire periodically to allow the insert to plump back up.
But do like these tires schwalbe pick up super defense or and kwick drumlin sport both e50 rated. ?
I use Kwick Drumlin Sport and Kwick Drumlin Cargo. I have mixed impressions of them. Two out of four Kwick Drumlin Sport tires I've had developed lumps from casing damage, at pressures well within their ratings, and with low mileage. The 26 x 2.0" model I had felt really squirmy in turns and I never got used to its handling qualities. The 700x50 tires feel just fine on the same width rims.

Puncture protection has been superb. I got a flat from a roofing nail, another from a big construction staple, and a third from a piece of thin steel wire. But that's five tires and several thousand miles.

Here's a picture of the cross-section of a 700x50 with KS+ (the thicker 5mm belt versus 3mm "KS"). Total thickness is 7mm:
IMG_20220623_205513679~2.jpg
IMG_20220623_205513679~2.jpg (352.72 KiB) Viewed 321 times
The Cargo version has a thinner breaker belt, but a double thickness casing. I've had no problems at all with that one.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 23 2022 9:14pm

Ok then I will see if they have schwalbe pickup 50e tire and 26in. 2.2 flat attack tube and the tannus Armour. Protector.
And then rim glue on the bead with Continental glue.
Will clean with Coleman camp fuel as white gas ? I have two gallons.
I also have a cheap front fork and have ebrake ready front and rear disc brake setup I could use but might fit giant 23.5in frame with tall neck. I also just got giant 21.5 frame it has to fit. Maybe move everything over and weld a 3/8 rear brake hanger ?
Last edited by 999zip999 on Jun 23 2022 9:45pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34036
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by amberwolf » Jun 23 2022 9:39pm

Chalo wrote:
Jun 23 2022 9:12am
Two of these problems would be mitigated by using the belt inside the tire layup, rather than as an add-on.
FWIW, my experience and experimentation (back when I used tire liners like Slime plastic ones) a slick-surfaced liner that is separate from the tire and tube (or integrated into the tube's exterior surface) is more likely to be effective in deflecting things that do penetrate the tire (and any liner it has), to go "around" the tube rather than into it.

For instance, if you glue a Slime liner to the inner surface of the tube to prevent it from "sidewindering" off the center of the tread area, it is now able to be easily penetrated by anything that won't be bent or broken off as it goes thru the tire and into the liner. That means most things in the way of pointy road debris can go right thru the liner now, whereas when the liner just sits between the tube and tire, it is more likley to hit the surface of the liner at enough of an angle to slide along it and be pushed to the sidewall rather than up thru the tube.

A fibrous liner that isn't slick on it's surface wouldn't deflect things like that so it doesn't apply; the stuff could catch on the fibers and be "forced" to attempt to penetrate it whether it was fixed to the tire or not. (I never used such a liner so I don't know exactly how it would happen).
If you found this advice helpful, supporting contributions are accepted here.

Beginning of a New Life


Give a listen to my music!

(More here, including experimental)
.

calab   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1336
Joined: Dec 11 2013 1:00am

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by calab » Jun 23 2022 11:45pm

You might just have to suck it up, ride different or switch your tire game up.
Play it by ear

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 25 2022 12:02am

Yes you might be right and clean my rim with Coleman fuel the rim first

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 25 2022 12:04am

Why does he has to do this if it takes you that you didn't post it and then you post it and then you post it twice add stop in this beer tres remedy this is Doctor
What this talk to text.

calab   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1336
Joined: Dec 11 2013 1:00am

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by calab » Jun 25 2022 12:10am

A smooth tire would be needed, but having that tire not have any wires in its tread should be key.
If you hit any dumpster behind any local bicycle store, you should have plenty to choose from.

Thorn proof tubes are thicker and would work great as a tire liner. How it stays in place, probably tape it to the under/inside the tire, slightly inflate the tube, making sure the tube is of sufficient size for tire size. Too big a tube for the tire, can cause damage to the tire liner by the bead.

You could also try belt noise/squeel suppressant spray from the automotive store, has a sticky & tacky feel to it. It can also help adhere the bead and keep the tire to tube. Tire slippage could be a thing, sometimes for some tires they go on so easy, slip on and seem loose yet air it up and its all good, yet some other tires you feel you need steel motorcycle tire spoons as tire levers. Leverage is a thing we learn quickly dont we.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 25 2022 2:36pm

Sorry about that last text it's frustrating with talk to text so I let it fly.
I got my hands on a J&B catalog and going to order up everything for the next two years . Yes ever thing.
Tube rims tires brakes liners cables tools and other stuff

Hummina Shadeeba   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2430
Joined: Apr 25 2014 10:26pm
Location: Sausalito

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jun 28 2022 5:27pm

JBI? what percent to retail is it? or maybe im confusing things but seems youre going to get things wholesale somehow. Maybe you sell me some of everything too? i need 4 tires, 2 headsets, ..


(shameless)

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10568
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 28 2022 9:28pm

Yea it's a shop catalog a lo of general stuff most bike stores work on 100% mark up.
Shameless

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10672
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Tire inside tire any tips

Post by Chalo » Jun 28 2022 11:05pm

999zip999 wrote:
Jun 28 2022 9:28pm
Yea it's a shop catalog a lo of general stuff most bike stores work on 100% mark up.
Shameless
Okay then... you try to pay your rent, staff, employer payroll taxes, insurance, utilities, shipping costs, inventory taxes, credit interest, premises maintenance, advances to wholesalers, etc., and maybe if you're lucky a little profit-- on whatever markup you consider reasonable.

The shop owners I know well enough that I understand their business details? They pay themselves less than their employees.

Industry standard of 100% retail markup really only applies to low cost components and accessories. Expensive stuff is marked up less, complete bikes are marked up less. Distributors are constantly raising wholesale costs without commensurate increases in MSRP, so now a lot of the little time wasting purchases don't even command normal markup.

I don't really mind the corollary shift to a more service based business model, because that's what I think local shops are best at, that online sales will not take away. But if it were easy to to make good money running a bike shop, they wouldn't shut down so often.

Read and learn about other businesses' markups:
https://www.wisebread.com/cheat-sheet-r ... mmon-items
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

Post Reply