Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Tangalle   100 mW

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 17 2019 7:24pm

Depends more how autonomy I want

Or electric plug I find on the street

I don't have home to charge.

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by billvon » May 17 2019 9:10pm

Tangalle wrote:
May 17 2019 2:37pm
3x 600W supplies would get you 1800 watts of charging
What do you mean by supplies in this sentence?
You can connect some Meanwell supplies in series (or parallel) to increase power. Meanwell supplies - especially the unpotted, forced air ones - are relatively cheap/light for their power.
The more power you have, the more power you will use.
Can we limit the power by the controller or something else?
Sure. But you will still use more power overall unless you never exceed that power limit. And if you never exceed that limit, might as well get a smaller/more efficient motor and increase your range.
The thing is : I want to charge 1300wh in 60 90 minutes.
That's a .75C to 1C rate. Many li-ion batteries will handle that.
Limit the size of the battery to charge quicker?
The smaller the battery the slower you can charge in terms of watt-hours per minute (which is what you care about.)
Have 2 3 charger? But the weight too.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
--bill von

Tangalle   100 mW

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 17 2019 11:11pm

Hooo, a 3kwh charger !!! 48v

https://www.eltek.com/products/flatpack2-483000-he/


So billvon, I express myself badly. I want to quickest charging possible.
The limit of a plug who give 10A on 220v.

If it's easy to do it in 1 hour, let go for 20minuts.

But ok, if I change my mind (I just started to look, nothing, absolutely nothing is writing inside stone) I know lithium ion can do it in one hour.

__

Witch power I will use my motor? Depends about many things. And how many plug and sun I meet on my road.

The battery will be around 1200 1300wh. I think it's a good balance

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by amberwolf » May 17 2019 11:15pm

Tangalle wrote:
May 17 2019 9:58am
That's why I would like to know if I can definine on a controller for exemple i want to use only 25w/mile. And undo it when i have a special challenging time.
Controllers don't work like that. Would be nice if they did...but they don't.

You can use a wattmeter and watch it so the average wh/mile doesn't exceed whatever limit you like, but there is no automatic method of that (not even with the Cycle Analyst).

The closest you can do is adjusting the current limit of the system so it doesn't exceed a certain amount. Some systems let you adjust it as watts instead, but it is the same limit it's actually adjusting, effectively.


I know people who charge a123 battery with 1800w charger.
First: CALB is not A123. A123, out of the LiFePO4, can be charged relatively quickly.--but fast charging ages the cells faster than slow charging, regardless of how good the cells are. Every cell model by each manufacturer has different specs, because each has different properties. Bigger capacity cells can be charged faster in Amps than small cells, but their actual rate of charging is no different--it'll generally take the same time to charge a big cell as a small one, becuase their rates are usually the same, for the same brand of cell.

A 1C charge rate means taking only 1 hour to charge the cell. 0.5C means taking two hours. 0.25C means taking four hours. Etc.


Second, sure, you can charge anything with an 1800w charger--as long as the battery is large enough to keep the *current* that the cells are charged at to below their specific maximum charge rate (and preferably below their specific recommended charge rate, which is often less than half the max). This is often defined by C-rate, which is determined by the capacity, so a 2.2Ah cell that has a 0.5C charge rate can only be charged at 1.1A. A 20Ah cell that has a 0.25C charge rate can only be charged at 5A. If it's a 10Ah cell that has a 2C charging rate, it can be charged at 20A. And so on.

So let's say you're using a 72v pack, which is probably around 84v full charge. We'll make an assumption that the 1800w comes from being capable of 21A max charge. (1800w / 84v = 21A) If that's not the case, then these assumptions don't work: If you had a 21Ah pack, you'd be charging at 1C, which is a high rate of charge for some cells, beyond their limits, and is kinda fast for other cells, within limits but . If a 42Ah pack, it's only 0.5C, which is a lot easier on the cells. If an 84Ah pack, it's only 0.25C, which is very easy on most cells.


Third, when you are out and about travelling in unknown territory, you may have trouble finding an outlet that can handle 1800w. (if you can find one at all) Your small solar system won't, either (assuming you have an inverter to provide AC power to run the charger). If you get a charger that is adjustable output current, you can set it lower for outlets (or your system) that cant' handle it.

You don't *have* to do this, but I'd recommend it, as it may make your life easier out on the road. ;)






I don't want to go super fast. It's also about how you create your nxus motor no? If I ask for max torque and low speed. Something like 30mph max.
With a trailer like that, 30mph is still pretty dang fast. And unless you make it all very aerodynamically designed, 30MPH is going to use a whole lot of power, whenever you do use it, eating up your capacity quickly.

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 17 2019 11:37pm

So

If I am using a 48v battery pack (I will)

48v and 14a. But two of them, one on eatch side of the trailer
With the limit of lifepo4, 5c, I can charge 14x5 = 70a at 48v?

70x48 = 3300watt charger?

A 3000watt charger.
Flatpack2 48V/3000W HE

But not easy to find in europe

I am good?

With the 1c lithium ion :
48v and 14a.
14x1 = chargement 14a
14x48 = Almost 700w charger

:warn: can we say if we are using the max of the lithium ion 1c capacity charge, we will use them quickly.?
:warn: can we say if we charge the lifepo4 at 5c we will use them quickly?

:flame: the lithium ion have already a kind of short lifetime.
Not the lifepo4.
And because is 5c frocking fast, a 4c can save the lifetime and charge quickly?

:idea:

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by amberwolf » May 18 2019 12:19am

Tangalle wrote:
May 17 2019 11:37pm
If I am using a 48v battery pack (I will)

48v and 14a. But two of them, one on eatch side of the trailer
With the limit of lifepo4, 5c, I can charge 14x5 = 70a at 48v?
5C is usually the *discharge* rate, not the charge rate, for good LiFePO4.

This does not include A123 cells, which are very differnet from the other stuff out there--lots of places that sell generic LiFePO4 use the word A123 in their ads, but arent' actually using A123 cells, so if you think you're getting A123 cells, make very very sure that's what it really is before you treat it like A123 cells.

So let's say you have two 14Ah (not 14A, it's a very important difference) packs in parallel. Let's assume they are chargeable at teh same rate as that Ping pack you linked to, which is less than 0.75C (20Ah / <15A). Let's call it 0.75C max, 0.5C normal charge rate. So with a 28Ah pack (2 x 14Ah) at 0.75C is 21A max charging rate (would take an hour and a half to charge), which is harder on the cells than the normal rate, so 0.5C would be 14A charging current, and take two hours.
70x48 = 3300watt charger?
So, no. At best, for one of those 14Ah packs, you'd have a 10.5A charge current, so around a 500w charger. For two in parallel, 21A, for around a 1000w charger. Better for the cells to use lower charge current; they last longer. So around a 350w for one pack, or 700w for two in parallel.

But not easy to find in europe
Meanwell HLG-xxxH-xxA series (like HLG-600H-54A I use) is are available thru many electronics distributors, probably including places like Farnell, etc. Digikey and Mouser may also have offices in EU that you could get them thru.

They are sealed and fanless, so they are heavier per watt but weatherproof (the Eltek is not--get in a flood and it's toast). They are adjustable in voltage and in current by two little knobs. They will operate from as low as around 90VAC, all the way up to 220-250VAC. Each one can handle 11-12A, and you just hook more of them in parallel to get more current. (or use separate chargers for each pack, whatever works for you). Supposedly they can even take DC voltage input, but I haven't tested that. ;)

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by amberwolf » May 18 2019 12:32am

Anyway, it depends on how long you need the packs to last, as to how close to their maximums you run them. If you can replace them more often, you can use them harder. If like me you need them to last as many years as possible, you should use them at as much less than their max as possible.


As a note, here's what Ping says about his packs:
Lifecycle of the whole pack: >85% capacity after 1000 cycles.
Lifecycle of single cell: >85% capacity after 1500 cycles,
>70% capacity after 3000 cycles.
(<1C discharge rate and <1C charge rate),
Averagely 2000 Cycles
Note that this lifespan is only for when used at less than 1C for both charge *and* discharge.

Meaning, if you had a 48v 14Ah pack, to get that lifespan, you'd have to use it at less than 14A, meaning around 670W max. The more you use it above that, the more it decreases the lifespan.

Two in parallel gives you twice that, so 1340w. Four in parallel gives you 2680W without stressing the packs.

OF course, you can use them at higher rates, it just shortens the lifespan, so it's up to you to decide how this will all work for you.

It sure gets complicated, doesn't it? :/

Tangalle   100 mW

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 18 2019 8:46am

Yeah it is. But that's very interesting.

Especially my study when I was younger was not technical.

Anyway, I REALLY want to say thank you for your really helpful message. Amberwolf and billvon especially but everyone also you just put a small message.

You rock :flame:

I try.

The electric plug can give 220v at 10a. (Ah?) In Europe.
So, the plug can provide 2200w

We can say 2kw

my battery will be around 1300wh. So, without the idea of lifepo4 or lithium, the best thing I can have will be around 40 minutes?

So that's mean, if I want this 40 minutes charge, I need something like 2c battery charge rate?

I start simple :D

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 19 2019 11:52am

:lowbatt:

So, the problem with lithium ion, is not safe to charge more than 0.75c

Lifepo4 : rock and roll and many more good things. Not the weight.

I would like to charge at 48v 40A. The limit of EU plug.

The charger looks like fine : https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Eltek-Flatpack- ... Sw8dNcxg41


And build the battery from that :
https://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batter ... -20Ah.html

I need to find a good BMS

A good (and not too expensive) controller who can manage that. Adaptoo? With the regeneration.

:)

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by amberwolf » May 19 2019 9:07pm

I don't think we're communicating correctly, so there are repeats of important information in the reply below.

If there is any part of it that isn't clear, please ask specific questions so that we can help you understand the parts you need to, to ensure you can find the right stuff for your system that can actually do what you want it to do.

I don't want you to buy stuff based on incorrect assumptions or information, and end up with a system that won't do what you need.
Tangalle wrote:
May 19 2019 11:52am
So, the problem with lithium ion, is not safe to charge more than 0.75c
NO.

Depends entirely on the specific brand and model of *CELL* and how that battery is built (number of cells in parallel, etc).

You have to check what the specs are for those, before you can know what it's charge rate is.

If a battery pack manufacturer specifies the charge rate for the battery, then you can use that.

But each one will be different, unless it is made of the same exact cells in the same way as another battery pack.


Lifepo4 : rock and roll and many more good things. Not the weight.
No idea what you mean by that, but if you think that LiFePO4 in general can charge faster than "Lithium Ion" (which is not a battery chemistry), then you need to look at the specs for the specific brand and model of *CELL* a battery uses, and how that battery is built (number of cells in parallel, etc).

*Some* specific cell models of some chemistries can charge faster than other specific cell models of *other* chemistries.


I would like to charge at 48v 40A. The limit of EU plug.
The current you can charge at is all up to the specific brand and model of *CELL* that your battery uses, and how that battery is built (number of cells in parallel, etc).

You have to pick the *BATTERY*, and then pick a charger suited to the BATTERY.

So pick a BATTERY that can charge the rate you want it to, safely, without stressing it.

But you also have to pick a BATTERY that can handle the current the CONTROLLER needs.

So first you have to pick a CONTROLLER that can provide the current the MOTOR needs, to do the work that you want it to do.

For that, you need to pick the MOTOR that can do the work you want it to do.

So it comes down to first:
-- figuring out exactly what motor you want,
-- and then a controller for that (that also meets your other requirements),
-- and then a battery for that (taht also meets your charging requirements),
-- and then, finally, a charger for that.


Regarding adappto---AFAIK they're out of business, possibly because they couldn't (or wouldn't?) fix all the controllers of their customers that kept breaking (or because they took to long doing it...I don't really know). All the info I have on them is what's been reported around here on ES, so you can look around the forum for them if you like. Many posts may not have "adappto" in them, or at least not spelled right, but may have "midi" or "mini" or "max", which can make them hard to find.


But anyway, don't pick a controller till youv'e picked a motor, and don't do that until you are certain exactly what you need it to do, preferably after using the simulator previously linked, so you can see what kinds of systems do what kinds of work.

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 19 2019 10:47pm

My English is not fluent too :oops:

For 0.75c, I read that's on an another forum who give this advice to not harm and reduce the battery life.
Maybe it's true. It not. I am a specialist. But one thing pretty sure : lifepo4 can charge quicker.

#I will look if I can find a lithium ion who can charge at 2C#

Or, put in // the battery, like 48V 15A for exemple and charging in 48V 15A.

But still, lifepo4 battery have better life cycle and better for the planet.

___

I am not agree about what you said :

The current you can charge at is all up to the specific brand and model of *CELL* that your battery uses, and how that battery is built (number of cells in parallel, etc).

I will build the battery to fit exactly the limit of European plug. European plug can deliver 220v on 10a.

It's because I want to fastest charge possible. And everything behind will fit until this limit.

How I see the things makes sense for me. Maybe I explain myself so bad you could not understand.

___


-- figuring out exactly what motor you want,

Mxus 3000w


-- and then a controller for that (that also meets your other requirements),

I just start to see that.

-- and then a battery for that (taht also meets your charging requirements),


-- and then, finally, a charger for that.

Like I said I just thinking in reverse. I hope you understand. It's because my project and my life is very different. So I have a different approache.

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by amberwolf » May 19 2019 11:06pm

Tangalle wrote:
May 19 2019 10:47pm
My English is not fluent too :oops:
That's, ok, it's WAY better than my French (which is nonexistent). :oops:
But one thing pretty sure : lifepo4 can charge quicker.
Not true of every LiFePO4, vs every other chemistry.

LTO (lithium Titanate) can charge even faster, in general, if you only want generalities.

RC LiPo can as well, in general.

But you can't just assume that any random cell of one chemistry will charge faster than another, or that it will charge as fast as you want it to just because you want it to.


I'll repeat this again:
The current you can charge at is all up to the specific brand and model of *CELL* that your battery uses, and how that battery is built (number of cells in parallel, etc)

Every different brand and model of cell, regardless of chemistry, has different specifications.

Each has a different charge rate.

Each has a different discharge rate.

Each has a different capacity.

There are tradeoffs of each one of those things to get better ability in the others.

If you refuse to believe this and look into it, then you can go ahead and just buy whatever you think is what you want, but I have doubts that you will get what you need. It's your choice.

Like I said I just thinking in reverse. I hope you understand. It's because my project and my life is very different. So I have a different approache.
It's your project, your life, and your money, you're free to use it however you wish.

Sorry I couldn't help you. :(

Tangalle   100 mW

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 20 2019 9:10am

Don't say you could not. Just you don't want. Be honest. No worries. It's your choice if you don't want to help me anymore.
You already did a lot. Thank you for that.

I hope someone will help me :

Build my battery with this elements

http://www.evlithium.com/LiFePO4-Battery/566.html

Maximum charging current : 1c

WTF

This charger

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Used-Eltek-...bYAAOSwGwlaBcTJ

This controller

Adaptoo midi e

http://adaptto.com/Products/Controllers/

Someone have a think about this?

Thanks

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by billvon » May 20 2019 9:14am

Tangalle wrote:
May 19 2019 11:52am
So, the problem with lithium ion, is not safe to charge more than 0.75c
Many li-ion batteries can charge at 1C
The LG INR18650HG2 can charge at 1.25C
The LG 18650HE4 can charge at 1.6C
I would like to charge at 48v 40A. The limit of EU plug.
Standard "europlugs" are 2.5A. The newer 60906 standard is 16 amps. Many of these outlets are limited to 10 amps.

At 10 amps 240 volts you can charge at 2400 watts. That means if you want to charge standard li-ion batteries you need a 2400 watt hour pack. If it's made of the HG2 cells it only has to be 1920wh. If it's made of the HE4 cells it only has to be 1500wh.
--bill von

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 20 2019 9:26am

Interesting :)

Furthermore : all lifepo4 battery I found on internet are limited around 1c charging.

Like this exemple but also on pingbattery

http://www.evlithium.com/LiFePO4-Battery/566.html

What I know about eu plug, and french guys are agree with me

220v on 10A

So 2200w.

With a 2000w charger. Eltek flatpack. So 48v on 40A.

With two 48v 15A or one but Split un 2.

So the charging is 1.5C (around).

Agree?
Cheers

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 20 2019 10:03am

When I read forum, every time come that :

Don't charge lithium ion up to 0.5c if you don't to short the life cycle.

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by billvon » May 20 2019 10:17am

Tangalle wrote:
May 20 2019 10:03am
Don't charge lithium ion up to 0.5c if you don't to short the life cycle.
Read the datasheet. If it allows fast charging then it's OK to fast charge it.

Note that ALL charging shortens the life of a battery. Slow charging reduces it slowly. Fast charging reduces it quickly. Thus it is wise to charge as slowly as possible; below .5C is ideal. Batteries that charge at 1.6C are not damaged too badly by fast charging; they are designed to be able to take it.

Also note that if you build a battery pack it's going to have a short life. History has shown that anyone's first pack doesn't last long. They choose a BMS that has high leakage currents, and it kills the battery after being stored for a month. Or they do a poor thermal design that allows the center cells to get hot (and stay hot.) Or they do a poor job with interconnects and the cells don't share well as a result.

So don't worry too much about battery life. It will be short anyway.
--bill von

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 20 2019 10:26am

Shorter true. But because I will use them everyday (two charge by days it's possible for months), I think lifepo4 are better.

Shorter 3k to 2k life cycle are ok :D
But getting 400 to 300 or 200 life cycle. Not .


But I could not find lifepo4 48v 30ah battery pack with more than 1C charging.

Thanks :)

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by billvon » May 20 2019 10:38am

Tangalle wrote:
May 20 2019 10:26am
Shorter true. But because I will use them everyday (two charge by days it's possible for months), I think lifepo4 are better.
If you don't mind the weight, sure. But you may be heading down a path where:

1) You choose a battery and motor.
2) You put them together and try them out - but the range is too low! Because the bike is heavy.
3) You put a larger battery on to give you more range.
4) You try them out - but now the speed is too low! The bike is now even heavier, after all.
5) You put a larger motor on to give you more speed.
6) You try them out - but now the range is lower again because of the larger motor!
7) You get a larger battery

Etc.

Also, again, you are probably going to destroy your first battery, so it should probably be a cheap one. It tends to happen with great regularity.
--bill von

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 20 2019 11:04am

The range is too low : does not matter if I can charge in 30min.

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Re: Help me to create my solar panel trike with caravan trailer

Post by Tangalle » May 20 2019 4:24pm

Or...

Remove charger. Et use only solar panel

And try to find a light motor.

No fast charge, no lifepo4.

A quick calcul say : I win 20 kilos

I need time to mature that

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