Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

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theblindsaint   1 mW

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Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by theblindsaint » Jun 11 2019 12:22pm

I'm in the process of converting a bike with this kit and have a few questions I hope to get help with https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079T ... UTF8&psc=1

1. Is there a recommendation for twist throttles that are slim enough that they wont completely jam the shifter levers?
2. How safe is it if I connect a 52V battery instead of a 48V? Image of the controller https://imgur.com/eTaLKHi
3. I don;t want a PAS, but still want a speedometer and battery indicator. Where can I find a display that only handles those two, and how do I check if it;s compatible with my controller?
4. Another compatibility question, the brake sensors I want to use have 3 wires (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F3 ... UTF8&psc=1), but the connectors on my controller only have 2 connections. Is it impossible for the sensor to work with my controller then?
5. Related to 3 and 4, if the controller that came with the kit doesn't suit my needs, what controller is recommended?

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E-HP   1 MW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by E-HP » Jun 11 2019 2:44pm

theblindsaint wrote:
Jun 11 2019 12:22pm
I'm in the process of converting a bike with this kit and have a few questions I hope to get help with https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079T ... UTF8&psc=1

1. Is there a recommendation for twist throttles that are slim enough that they wont completely jam the shifter levers?
2. How safe is it if I connect a 52V battery instead of a 48V? Image of the controller https://imgur.com/eTaLKHi
3. I don;t want a PAS, but still want a speedometer and battery indicator. Where can I find a display that only handles those two, and how do I check if it;s compatible with my controller?
4. Another compatibility question, the brake sensors I want to use have 3 wires (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F3 ... UTF8&psc=1), but the connectors on my controller only have 2 connections. Is it impossible for the sensor to work with my controller then?
5. Related to 3 and 4, if the controller that came with the kit doesn't suit my needs, what controller is recommended?
1. Too many shifters and throttles out there to know what the problem is that you're describing.
2. 95% sure safe, but you could open it to see if the caps are rated at 60V or above. If you're replacing the controller, just wired this one up and see.
3. Just don't use it. The display will still work as long as you change the setup so throttle is always active. If your goal is to replace the display, then the dumb version of the Cycle Analyst looks like it would work.
4. If you're replacing the controller, just get one that supports both hi and lo brake signals. Or, you can just use two of the three wires and replace the plug with the 2 pin one from the kit levers.
5. Don't know what your needs are, but 2-4 are irrelevant if this is what your intention is.

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Drunkskunk   100 GW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by Drunkskunk » Jun 11 2019 2:53pm

Welcome to the forum.

Can you return that kit? it doesn't look like it will meet your needs, and other kits on Amazon might work better for you. The motor is fine, actually possibly very good if it's manufactured by who I think it is. It's the rest of the parts that seem to be a mismatch. The controller says it's been de-rated and speed limited. kind of a huge waste on a big motor like this. Like being served a huge steak dinner, but only being allowed to smell it while you eat toast.

You can just replace the controller. If you don't mind paying a premium for good parts that will work far better than that silver box of sadness, and the display of despair, then a Baserunner and Cycle Analyst would be a perfect combo, for about $300 combined.
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... unner.html
There are cheaper alternatives, though it really depends on what your needs and end goals are. There is also a lot more expensive, again, depending on your needs and goals whether those would be of any use on this bike.

The brake switch won't work. It's a variable output hall sensor best used for progressive Regen breaking on a controller that can take that kind of input. Your kit, and most in this price point, the switch just kills the motor. it's a simple throttle cut, like having your car turn off the engine every time you hit the brake. And it's really unneeded. In a few places it's a legal requirement, but if you are the sort of person who can't remember to let go of the throttle when you want to stop, complex and dangerous machinery Like Ebikes, Automobiles, and Doorknobs may not be for you.

There is almost no an issue using 52v batteries on 48 volt kits. But I did say almost. The cut off voltage programmed in the controller is going to be too low. Lithium batteries are very sensitive about their minimum voltage. So if you run the battery down until the controller cuts the power, you may have damaged the battery. The easy and cheap solution is to watch your voltages and know when you have to stop. Some controllers do let you program this, but I'm not expecting that cheap controller to be able to do that.

Do you have the rapid fire shift levers, or something like those? Mounting the throttle the stock way will interfere, but it's actually easy to mount it so that it doesn't with no other mods.
Ignore the battery lights on the throttle. they will be totally useless with a 52v battery, and are nearly useless anyway so you don't need to see them. With those ignored, the throttle really has no "Top" or "Up" position. Rotate the throttle base to a position where the cable lead isn't in the way. for the 2 bike's I have with that style of shifter, the position was different on each.
Next, loosen and move the brake and shifters to the left about an inch, so that the shifters clear the throttle. This will feel weird at first, but you should still be able to reach the shifters with your thumb and finger with out issue. The brake should still be accessible, but your hand position will have changed. If you had a very short handled brake, you may want to swap to a 4 finger style brake handle, but that shouldn't be necessary. The new position of the shifter and brake may seem sub-optimal at first, compared to your old style of riding. However your hand position will change due to this now being a throttle, not a grip.


lastly, you will need a spoke wrench. And you're going to need to learn to true a wheel. These cheep kits come with cheap and overly thick spokes that don't allow for proper tightening and stress relief. Consequentially, the spokes will loosen themselves nearly every ride for the first couple hundred miles. once loose they will rapidly start to fail and break. keeping them properly tightened and true will prevent that.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Monster Bike:http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=38667

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E-HP   1 MW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by E-HP » Jun 11 2019 3:09pm

Drunkskunk wrote:
Jun 11 2019 2:53pm
The brake switch won't work. It's a variable output hall sensor best used for progressive Regen breaking on a controller that can take that kind of input.
Interesting. How does that work? Doe it vary by the distance the magnet is from the sensor?

I had assumed by the description that it was simply +5V out of the signal wire when activated.

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E-HP   1 MW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by E-HP » Jun 11 2019 3:20pm

E-HP wrote:
Jun 11 2019 3:09pm
Drunkskunk wrote:
Jun 11 2019 2:53pm
The brake switch won't work. It's a variable output hall sensor best used for progressive Regen breaking on a controller that can take that kind of input.
Interesting. How does that work? Doe it vary by the distance the magnet is from the sensor?

I had assumed by the description that it was simply +5V out of the signal wire when activated.
EDIT: Never mind, looked more closely.

theblindsaint   1 mW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by theblindsaint » Jun 11 2019 3:29pm

Hi, thanks for the really detailed response. What other kits would you suggest then? I was actually sort of prepared to have to upgrade/replace most of the electronics.

My current goal is a bike that can go roughly around 30~40 mph, with a range of 7~10 miles. The area I'm at is completely flat. Taking those into consideration, what sort of controller/display would you recommend? I'm also confused on how would I connect a different controller to my motor, as the connectors on the baserunner look different then the connector on my silver box of sadness.

Yes my snifters are the same style as rapid fire shift levers. I do understand the option of moving them out of the way is possible, I was looking into the possibility of not having to do that. I just wasn't sure if all grip throttles have such a thick ring, or if I was looking in the wrong places.

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E-HP   1 MW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by E-HP » Jun 11 2019 4:00pm

theblindsaint wrote:
Jun 11 2019 3:29pm
My current goal is a bike that can go roughly around 30~40 mph, with a range of 7~10 miles. The area I'm at is completely flat.
This is helpful. The motor you bought says it's capable of 28 mph @ 48 volts. Based on that, you'll need a 72 volt battery to approach that 40 mph. 60 volts will approach 35 mph.

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by amberwolf » Jun 11 2019 11:40pm

Depending on wind, conditions, build of bike, etc., it will also take around 80-100wh/mile to go those speeds.

So 7-10 miles will need around a 700wh - 1000wh battery pack. At 72v, that would be about 14Ah.

If there's headwinds, or a lot of stops and starts, it could take more.

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by amberwolf » Jun 11 2019 11:58pm

The brake switch linked is what is known as the HWBS, or Hidden Wire Brake Switch; there's a fair number of posts about them here on the forum.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search

AFAIK, none of the ones discussed so far are variable output, just on/off.

They simply require 5v and ground to operate, and then when the brake cable moves within it far enough to trigger the sensor, they turn on the output. AFAICR that output basically grounds to 0V when active, and is essentially open when not active, but I'd have to dig the one I have here out to find out (it's a different model, but probably works the same).

So the only thing you should have to do with any generic controller that uses two wires, is to just hook up the signal wire and ground from the controller normally, and then also run a 5v wire from the throttle or whatever, to the 5v of the HWBS.



If the model of HWBS you've linked to does in fact do variable output, then it wouldn't be compatible, but there are a number of HWBS versions linked in the threads in the search above.

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by amberwolf » Jun 12 2019 12:00am

theblindsaint wrote:
Jun 11 2019 12:22pm
1. Is there a recommendation for twist throttles that are slim enough that they wont completely jam the shifter levers?
Grin tech http://ebikes.ca has (or had?) a slim twist throttle.

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by amberwolf » Jun 12 2019 12:02am

2. How safe is it if I connect a 52V battery instead of a 48V? Image of the controller
Probably perfectly safe, however some controllers have an HVC that prevents them from operating above a certain voltage. Rare, but if yours has one, it may only operate with the 48v.

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by amberwolf » Jun 12 2019 12:17am

3. I don;t want a PAS, but still want a speedometer and battery indicator. Where can I find a display that only handles those two, and how do I check if it;s compatible with my controller?
If it doesn't come with the controller, as part of a kit, it's safer to assume that it is not compatible. Most displays are not compatible with anything but their own brand (and maybe even model) controller.

So, for the speedo, you can get a common bicycle computer cheap and easy.

Then for a battery indicator, eitehr get a throttle that has one built in, or a separate one, either as a "level meter" that uses 3 or more LEDs to show full, partly full, and empty, or an actual voltmeter.

OR, better option, is get a wattmeter. This will let you actually see how much battery is used, by capacity, rather than guessing based on voltage.

If you want both in one device, get the Cycle Analyst 2.4, which doesn't ahve all the fancy PAS/control options, but still does the wattmeter thing, and also does the speedo thing.

theblindsaint   1 mW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by theblindsaint » Jun 20 2019 12:40pm

After my last post and a little bit more researching, I've a more solid idea on how to progress, but still have some more questions. My goal is to cruise around 30~40 km/h, with a range of roughly 20km (messed up the unit conversion s last time). I'm also interested in regen breaking ability, and Cycle Analyst 2.4 compatibility (no PAS).

Please tell me if the battery and motor pairing makes sense for what I'm trying to do. The kit/motor I inherited is: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079T ... UTF8&psc=1
The batteries I am considering are:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SH ... UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/Bike-Battery-Lit ... 139&sr=1-5

I am also not exactly sure which controller suits me best, though these seem to be in the rough ballpark?
1. https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... 40-gr.html#
2. https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... 35-gr.html#
3. https://em3ev.com/shop/12-fet-irfb4110- ... ontroller/
Also, what is the biggest difference between the 1st and 3rd controller, they both seem to have the same mosfet and functions.

Some more general question on electronics.
1. Is there a tutorial on how to match the wires of the hall sensors to the controllers?
2. How do I add an on/off button to the Analyst?
3. What should I look out for if I want to chain both head and rear light, along with a horn onto the Analyst?
4. Once I hook everything up, is there a list of things to check before hopping on for a ride?

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E-HP   1 MW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by E-HP » Jun 20 2019 1:03pm

theblindsaint wrote:
Jun 20 2019 12:40pm
I am also not exactly sure which controller suits me best, though these seem to be in the rough ballpark?
1. https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... 40-gr.html#
2. https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... 35-gr.html#
3. https://em3ev.com/shop/12-fet-irfb4110- ... ontroller/
Also, what is the biggest difference between the 1st and 3rd controller, they both seem to have the same mosfet and functions.
The first is a square wave controller and the third is sine wave. If you want the bike to run silent, then you should get a sine wave controller. If you don't care, either option would work.

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by markz » Jun 20 2019 10:54pm

YESCOMUSA is a good place to buy a direct drive, gearless kit.

Buy the Unit Pack Power battery from their aliexpress/alibaba store if the Amazon supplier is not Unit Pack Power themselves which I highly doubt UPP is on Amazon. Get their charger as well.

Leafmotor and Leafbike have nice kits as well, they come with a display. If you want more power, grab their 1500W motor which can go much higher then that :thumb: :mrgreen:

Amazon has a great return policy, so perhaps that Voilmart ebike kit would suffice, as its probably just a generic 9C.

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by theblindsaint » Jun 20 2019 11:37pm

E-HP wrote:
Jun 20 2019 1:03pm
theblindsaint wrote:
Jun 20 2019 12:40pm
I am also not exactly sure which controller suits me best, though these seem to be in the rough ballpark?
1. https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... 40-gr.html#
2. https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... 35-gr.html#
3. https://em3ev.com/shop/12-fet-irfb4110- ... ontroller/
Also, what is the biggest difference between the 1st and 3rd controller, they both seem to have the same mosfet and functions.
The first is a square wave controller and the third is sine wave. If you want the bike to run silent, then you should get a sine wave controller. If you don't care, either option would work.
Sorry if I'm being blind, but did you mean the 3rd is a square wave? Nowhere on the 3rd one;s website does it mention if its a sinewave or not. Also, is the 2nd one not worth considering then?

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E-HP   1 MW

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Re: Half way through a conversion, need help finishing it

Post by E-HP » Jun 21 2019 12:58am

theblindsaint wrote:
Jun 20 2019 11:37pm
E-HP wrote:
Jun 20 2019 1:03pm
theblindsaint wrote:
Jun 20 2019 12:40pm
I am also not exactly sure which controller suits me best, though these seem to be in the rough ballpark?
1. https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... 40-gr.html#
2. https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... 35-gr.html#
3. https://em3ev.com/shop/12-fet-irfb4110- ... ontroller/
Also, what is the biggest difference between the 1st and 3rd controller, they both seem to have the same mosfet and functions.
The first is a square wave controller and the third is sine wave. If you want the bike to run silent, then you should get a sine wave controller. If you don't care, either option would work.
Sorry if I'm being blind, but did you mean the 3rd is a square wave? Nowhere on the 3rd one;s website does it mention if its a sinewave or not. Also, is the 2nd one not worth considering then?
i typed it backwards. first is sine wave.

Any combination of the components you listed are capable of meeting your revised requirements. On the controllers, the second is the best "value" and is also sine wave. The first two have variable regenl (throttle activated), which you may or may not prefer, relative to activating regen via the brake levers (like on the 3rd controller). Although the second is the best value, it doesn't allow you to go up in voltage if you want to later on.

For the battery, the two you listed are very different in form factor, so I'm assuming the frame you're mounting them on has the ability to accommodate either? If you're planning on mounting the big blocky one on your rear rack or something like that, consider it will throw off the balance on your bike until you get used to it. Lower is generally better for a mounting location due to the weight.

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