Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by MadRhino » Jul 02 2019 8:49pm

Darren2018 wrote:
Jul 02 2019 1:40pm
MadRhino wrote:
Jul 02 2019 12:29pm
You are crazy if you want to pedal motorcycle wheels and, if you plan some pedal input at all, you are completely in a wrong setup right now. Your requirements need to target a build in the 60 lbs, with a top speed 20% faster than your usual riding speed. Then you can think of adding some pedal input, and dream of respectable efficiency,

My bikes are useless to pedal input. Single and tuned to conveniently pedal the bike powerless. My average energy usage is 149 w/h per km.
Not really understanding the first part but did you mean that you cannot pedal your bike without power? Is this called motor drag? I can still use my current bike without any power although it does feel like riding through mud.
Nope, my crank ratio is set to comfortably pedal the bike unpowered (empty charge). When it is powered, the crank is useless because it is a single gear with a ratio for sub 10 Mph, on a bike that is quick to hit 60 Mph.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by MadRhino » Jul 02 2019 9:02pm

People who are building with such a big hub are not into cycling. They are into motor sport, or fast commuting.

There is a weight and power, at which a bike doesn’t feel like a bicycle anymore. I like to call them ULM, for Ultra Light Motorcycle. This weight and power level does vary with different riders, but for most starts around 75 lbs and 10kw.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

Darren2018   10 W

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 02 2019 9:10pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jul 02 2019 8:49pm
Darren2018 wrote:
Jul 02 2019 1:40pm
MadRhino wrote:
Jul 02 2019 12:29pm
You are crazy if you want to pedal motorcycle wheels and, if you plan some pedal input at all, you are completely in a wrong setup right now. Your requirements need to target a build in the 60 lbs, with a top speed 20% faster than your usual riding speed. Then you can think of adding some pedal input, and dream of respectable efficiency,

My bikes are useless to pedal input. Single and tuned to conveniently pedal the bike powerless. My average energy usage is 149 w/h per km.
Not really understanding the first part but did you mean that you cannot pedal your bike without power? Is this called motor drag? I can still use my current bike without any power although it does feel like riding through mud.
Nope, my crank ratio is set to comfortably pedal the bike unpowered (empty charge). When it is powered, the crank is useless because it is a single gear with a ratio for sub 10 Mph, on a bike that is quick to hit 60 Mph.
Ok got you. What I was worried about was the motor being hard to turn without power. My BBSHD makes it feel like riding through mud which I guess is partly due to the internal gearing and perhaps the motor itself. Roughly how much resistance is there when trying to pedal the QS205 without any battery power? Is it simply the mass of the motor that gives it that resistance or is it something to do with the magnets? I know nothing about motors at all so I apologise if it sounds stupid.

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 02 2019 9:15pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jul 02 2019 9:02pm
People who are building with such a big hub are not into cycling. They are into motor sport, or fast commuting.

There is a weight and power, at which a bike doesn’t feel like a bicycle anymore. I like to call them ULM, for Ultra Light Motorcycle. This weight and power level does vary with different riders, but for most starts around 75 lbs and 10kw.
I am no stranger to speed. I want something that accelerates brutally but it just has to be usable. Essentially what I would like is a fast, stable and efficient exercise bike.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by MadRhino » Jul 02 2019 9:30pm

Darren2018 wrote:
Jul 02 2019 9:15pm
MadRhino wrote:
Jul 02 2019 9:02pm
People who are building with such a big hub are not into cycling. They are into motor sport, or fast commuting.

There is a weight and power, at which a bike doesn’t feel like a bicycle anymore. I like to call them ULM, for Ultra Light Motorcycle. This weight and power level does vary with different riders, but for most starts around 75 lbs and 10kw.
I am no stranger to speed. I want something that accelerates brutally but it just has to be usable. Essentially what I would like is a fast, stable and efficient exercise bike.
So it comes back to what I had said previously: you need to target sub 70 lbs, so it does feel like a usable bicycle. One need to be pretty strong already, to handle 70 lbs like a bicycle.

Stability does rely in geometry and balance, not weight.

Speed is easy to build pretty light weight but: if you target good efficiency at 30, I’d say try not to build faster than 40. Or, you can build with a battery that you can quickly reconfigure, running 12s 4p or 24s 2p at will, is simple with lipo bricks.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

Darren2018   10 W

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 02 2019 10:47pm

I assumed weight would help because at the moment my main issue with stability only occurs when the wind catches the front wheel, it's feels like the front wheel is about to wash out. I am not sure if it's because of the large skinny wheels or the weight but I would have thought it was the weight because the rear does not suffer from this and as soon as I load up the front by using the brake the bike becomes stable. Also the bike does not handle the pot holes or bumps well at all, I am thinking this is because it's a hard tail with a low quality Suntour fork. I thought about building one of those Chinese full suspension M600 bikes but I decided not to due to the cost of the components vs the capacity and power. If I am going to iron out the problems I have on my current bike which is stability/range/power I thought I might as well get one of those bulky EEB style frames.

Here is my current bike
IMG_3710.JPG
Aesthetically these are the best EEB style frames I have seen so far
1547974808.jpg
1547974808.jpg (84.91 KiB) Viewed 532 times
s-l1600-11.jpg
google.jpg
I need to do some research on motor KV, battery voltage, phase current and controllers to try and figure out what combination will be best. If you know of any educational threads regarding these topics please link them (I hate reading through posts like mine looking for premium info :roll: )

rockstar195   10 W

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by rockstar195 » Jul 03 2019 7:27am

1) Build your own and save $: www.em3ev.com OR buy one already made
2) Have 2 separate bikes: 1 for exercise and the other for commuting because EEB are too heavy to try to pedal for long distances. The only way I see around it to have a dual purpose EEB is to install a PAS.

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 03 2019 11:56am

The PAS is exactly what I was going to do. How well have Sabvaton implemented it? Does it work flawlessly?

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by rockstar195 » Jul 04 2019 12:51am

Research "PAS Sabvoton" and let us know what you find. I dont even know if Sabvotons are PAS compatible.

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by harmonist » Jul 04 2019 6:28pm

I purchased an EEB frame from EM3EV and have been commuting 5 days a week on it for around 8 months now, its awesome and hasn't failed me yet. I would have preferred the futr alpha frame but its a bit too expensive, although if I was building again I'd probably suck it up and buy the alpha. I'm running a lighter 1500w edge motor up to around 5000w, average 1-2000w when cruising on the flat, gets me going along pretty quick, I bought it with PAS but never installed it and to be honest wouldn't bother, as others have said its a fast commuter not an exercise bike, I pedal sometimes when I'm overtaking other bikers or going past cops but otherwise don't bother too much, you'll have grand ideas of pedaling at the start but with that much power you eventually just stop as its not worth it, and I would never pedal it around not powered unlike say a BBSHD which you can ride fine with turned off. I've got another non electric bike at home that I still use on the weekends when I want the extra exercise etc.

Anyways hope you find the right bike for you! :)

Darren2018   10 W

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 04 2019 10:31pm

rockstar195 wrote:
Jul 04 2019 12:51am
Research "PAS Sabvoton" and let us know what you find. I dont even know if Sabvotons are PAS compatible.
This is exactly what I am going to do.

Darren2018   10 W

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 04 2019 10:33pm

harmonist wrote:
Jul 04 2019 6:28pm
I purchased an EEB frame from EM3EV and have been commuting 5 days a week on it for around 8 months now, its awesome and hasn't failed me yet. I would have preferred the futr alpha frame but its a bit too expensive, although if I was building again I'd probably suck it up and buy the alpha. I'm running a lighter 1500w edge motor up to around 5000w, average 1-2000w when cruising on the flat, gets me going along pretty quick, I bought it with PAS but never installed it and to be honest wouldn't bother, as others have said its a fast commuter not an exercise bike, I pedal sometimes when I'm overtaking other bikers or going past cops but otherwise don't bother too much, you'll have grand ideas of pedaling at the start but with that much power you eventually just stop as its not worth it, and I would never pedal it around not powered unlike say a BBSHD which you can ride fine with turned off. I've got another non electric bike at home that I still use on the weekends when I want the extra exercise etc.

Anyways hope you find the right bike for you! :)
I keep hearing about the EDGE motors I'll have a look into these.

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 04 2019 10:37pm

Does anyone know of an online calculator for gearing? I have seen quite a few but none of them use the circumference of the wheel. I have been told that pedalling is not an option but I was wondering if a 52T on the front and a 11T on the rear along with a 17" rim with a high profile tyre would amount to a reasonable speed and cadence. Can a 52T and an 11T even be done on these bikes?

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jul 05 2019 12:35pm

Darren2018 wrote:
Jul 04 2019 10:37pm
Does anyone know of an online calculator for gearing? I have seen quite a few but none of them use the circumference of the wheel. I have been told that pedalling is not an option but I was wondering if a 52T on the front and a 11T on the rear along with a 17" rim with a high profile tyre would amount to a reasonable speed and cadence. Can a 52T and an 11T even be done on these bikes?
Mammoth ebike offers the suntour vboxx pedal transmission gearbox just like stealth bomber that allows pedaling effectively from low through high speeds.. or consider an overdrive bottom bracket such as comes on fighter, etc for a cheaper overdrive pedal option.. qulbix also offers an overdrive system for pedaling at higher speeds..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

j bjork   100 W

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by j bjork » Jul 05 2019 1:37pm

If you are going to use a big QS 205, I guess you intend to use a 50H?
Then you cant have a smaller than 16 tooth sprocket on the motor as far as I know. If you want to pedal at higher speeds you would need a crazy big front sprocket. I had a 48 tooth, I could maby fit a 50 or 52 sprocket on my frame. But with my 17" wheel it would be far from enogh to be able to pedal at speed.

As others have said, maby an overdrive would work. Or you would have to go with an edge or simular 35mm motor to be able to fit a casette with more gears on the motor, and you would still need a rather big front sprocket.

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 05 2019 4:13pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jul 05 2019 12:35pm
Darren2018 wrote:
Jul 04 2019 10:37pm
Does anyone know of an online calculator for gearing? I have seen quite a few but none of them use the circumference of the wheel. I have been told that pedalling is not an option but I was wondering if a 52T on the front and a 11T on the rear along with a 17" rim with a high profile tyre would amount to a reasonable speed and cadence. Can a 52T and an 11T even be done on these bikes?
Mammoth ebike offers the suntour vboxx pedal transmission gearbox just like stealth bomber that allows pedaling effectively from low through high speeds.. or consider an overdrive bottom bracket such as comes on fighter, etc for a cheaper overdrive pedal option.. qulbix also offers an overdrive system for pedaling at higher speeds..
THANK YOU! This should make it possible! This problem of gearing has been bugging me for weeks! All of the solutions required an ugly work around or a custom frame design but the Schlumpf drive that's used on the Fighter is perfect.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by MadRhino » Jul 05 2019 8:05pm

The schlumpf hs drive is good but, very expansive, PITA to install, requires rimming your frame’s BB, and spare parts are long to get.

No matter the solution that you end up with, keep in mind that you must be able to pedal the big bike home in case of empty battery, or system failure.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

Darren2018   10 W

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 06 2019 2:02am

MadRhino wrote:
Jul 05 2019 8:05pm
The schlumpf hs drive is good but, very expansive, PITA to install, requires rimming your frame’s BB, and spare parts are long to get.

No matter the solution that you end up with, keep in mind that you must be able to pedal the big bike home in case of empty battery, or system failure.
How do you rim the bottom bracket? I have not found a reseller of these drives, do you know where I can get one or how much I should expect to pay? By the look of the options available pedalling will not be a problem, 48T for when the battery is empty and 120T for 30mph pedalling (correct me if I am wrong). Do you know if you can get a 12T for the QS 205? If not what is the lowest that will go on?

I have also seen a few posts mentioning that the clearance for the rear brake disc is quite poor and has resulted in wires being damaged. I had a magical idea to do away with the rear calliper and disc all together and use a hydraulic e lever capped off but connected to the regen system and then just fill the lever with a little fluid and mostly air to give it a synthetic hydraulic like feeling without the calliper actually being needed. This would clean things up considerably whilst giving the phase cables more clearance and also decrease the amount of parts which would need cleaning, maintenance or replacing. I then thought if I should use a regular MT5 for the front as the 2 braking systems would then be totally isolated from each other and also the regen from the throttle.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by MadRhino » Jul 06 2019 4:15am

Resellers usually rent the tool for rimming the BB, if you can’t improvise and make one yourself. Those who are making/selling tadpole trikes are the ones to see for a Schlumpf HS drive.

Brakes installation and tuning is not a problem for those with mechanical consciousness. Only newbies try to ride with a brake that is not set and aligned properly, and wiring that is not safely secured. Ebike building does require some basic fabrication skills: making dropout plates and/or custom brake brackets is not rocket science, but seems a big challenge for some.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

Darren2018   10 W

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by Darren2018 » Jul 06 2019 4:40am

MadRhino wrote:
Jul 06 2019 4:15am
Resellers usually rent the tool for rimming the BB, if you can’t improvise and make one yourself. Those who are making/selling tadpole trikes are the ones to see for a Schlumpf HS drive.

Brakes installation and tuning is not a problem for those with mechanical consciousness. Only newbies try to ride with a brake that is not set and aligned properly, and wiring that is not safely secured. Ebike building does require some basic fabrication skills: making dropout plates and/or custom brake brackets is not rocket science, but seems a big challenge for some.
I do not have access to a work shop or tools so eliminating as many problems is quite important.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by MadRhino » Jul 06 2019 8:06am

Angle grinder, drill, files, hacksaw, knife, crimping tool, multimeter.. that is about all that you need to build ebikes. You still need the usual bicycle tool kit, of course.

A Magura Gustav M caliper does fit without any mod with a rotor mounted direct on the QS 205, no spacer required. Yet, the Gustav caliper is not that easy to find, but spare parts are available and brake pads are not expansive.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jul 06 2019 12:45pm

I believed there are currently three options for bottom bracket speed drive / overdrive worth looking into schlumpf, truvative, Patterson ..
all require tool rental or professional installation..

pattersonbike.com
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

markz   100 GW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by markz » Jul 17 2019 1:36pm

Yup the Schlumpf (IGH crankset) sure looks good!
Schlumpf

https://www.alphabent.com/internally-geared-cranksets
Speed-Drive, Mountain-Drive, and Highspeed-Drive.
Each of these systems integrates the bottom bracket with the crankset and a planetary gear system to give cyclists gearing without conventional front derailleurs and multiple chainrings.
have two modes: geared and non-geared. In non-geared mode, the planetary gears are bypassed and just transfer power from crank to chainring.

http://www.haberstock-mobility.com/inde ... ducts.html
Be well worth a look, indeed!
http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/retailers.html

Gotta be rich!
$750
https://www.cyclemonkey.com/schlumpf-drive-haberstock




Truvativ Hammerschmidt
$300'ish??????
SHORT TERM VERDICT
Debatable at MSRP, but a definite YES YES YES at $300 and if you're not a weight weenie.
https://www.mtbr.com/product/drivetrain ... hmidt.html

A closer look
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Truvativ- ... -2008.html


If someone has the search "foo"
In Cycling magazines' big multi-speed gearing article, they listed 24 IGHs and 4 bottom bracket gears. One of the bottom bracket gearsets was a three speed.

This was in the February, 1907 issue.

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jul 06 2019 12:45pm
I believed there are currently three options for bottom bracket speed drive / overdrive worth looking into schlumpf, truvative, Patterson ..
all require tool rental or professional installation..

pattersonbike.com

markz   100 GW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by markz » Jul 17 2019 2:05pm

Here is one, at a measly $500
http://www.efneo.com/gearbox/

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Building an EEB with a QS 205... Help needed

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jul 17 2019 2:09pm

markz wrote:
Jul 17 2019 2:05pm
Here is one, at a measly $500
http://www.efneo.com/gearbox/
nice find:) I especially like this feature :
"Easy to install.. The easiest front gearbox to install ever. No frame modifications necessary..."
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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