is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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jimmyhackers   100 W

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is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by jimmyhackers » Jul 09 2019 11:16am

Got myself into a youtube spat with a yank who i think is suffering from post purchase rationalization and group bias.

i get the SUR-RON bikes are good, go well and look nice.....but i still think they are overpriced/overhyped for what they are.

i feel most of the price/money goes into the frame/forks/suspension and neither the batteries or motor are that great.

hence my argument is you could spend half as much and make something as good or better.

am i living in la la land or is there some validity to my argument
if you do learn from your mistakes, i should be a genius by now.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by MadRhino » Jul 09 2019 11:28am

From what I have seen when they did hit the market. I have found the price was fair. I spend more to build my bikes, and if they were mid drive even more.

I find them small and underpowered though. A friend has one that he upgraded, yet too slow to follow me in the mountain.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by flat tire » Jul 09 2019 1:23pm

Yes. It's a low quality bike with small power, heavy weight. It's not street legal and won't fly under the radar like a bicycle. So it's basically a shitty motorcycle for people who don't know any better.

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brumbrum   100 kW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by brumbrum » Jul 09 2019 1:58pm

Whats good.. Forum members and retailers are into hot rodding them, so there are opportunities to make them into what they should be. but, of course this all comes at extra cost.
Whats bad.. You need to completely customise them to make them hot rod.... At cost.
I would take the frame, drive train, and battery case,, that's all.
My NYX and cromotor build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74615
My LMX 161 dirt bike build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94074

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 09 2019 2:35pm

They are priced at the point where they will sell to the public. That being said, as more and more brands begin making and selling electric dirt bikes, the choices will improve and the prices will come down.

Alta has suspended dirt bike production, and Kuberg is even smaller and less powerful. Sketch Coleman built a real kick-ass E-dirtbike conversion, but he is not selling them.

He published all the details, ain't nothing to it but to do it...

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by markz » Jul 09 2019 3:27pm

Its just too easy to build your own ebike these days.
Absolutely no need for an attention getting motorcycle looking ebike. No need at all.

With my trained eyezzzzzz I actually like LQQK$ of the store bought ebikes when they are out being riding, because if I can barely tell if its an ebike or not, then thats great for a mid drive system, however they are way to over priced. I see more and more of them on the bike paths, and I make a comment everytime that they are frigging expensive store bought, because I do hit up the LBS and take a gander at them on the show room floor. Far too nice to lock up and be out of sight, far too nice and far too expensive.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 09 2019 4:57pm

I appreciate the sentiment, and yet...if the Sur-Ron is "over-priced", then...that means that everyone reading this thread has an incredible opportunity. Call up a factory in China, and spec the dream e-motorcycle you want, pay up front for a few hundred of them, and then you will BURY Sur-Ron. Plus, you will get rich in the process...

Jackson made a youtube teardown of the Sur-Ron, and he was honest about the pluses and minuses of the base model. That being said, if there is something better than Sur-Ron in that weight/size/performance category...post a better option here.

Stop hiding the Sur-Ron killer...post it now...

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by neptronix » Jul 09 2019 5:07pm

What's underhyped is building your own ride.. :mrgreen:

I think the sur ron is reasonable for what they're asking, in the same way that an ezip was a very reasonably priced electric bike. I see it as a starter ride, and the machine you build to your specification and tastes, which makes you beam with pride every time you twist the throttle... is the main dish :thumb:
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by tomjasz » Jul 09 2019 5:41pm

flat tire wrote:
Jul 09 2019 1:23pm
Yes. It's a low quality bike with small power, heavy weight. It's not street legal and won't fly under the radar like a bicycle. So it's basically a shitty motorcycle for people who don't know any better.
Finally! Thank you!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by sn0wchyld » Jul 09 2019 9:33pm

I'm struggling to see a bike of similar power/range/quality that comes in at this price. LBS ebikes are limited to 250w continuous, usually around 1kw peak, and 25km'h. Instead for less/similar money I can get a road legal, 50km'h (for the road legal part) ~5kw bike with good potential for upgrades to ~10kw. All electric motorbikes I know of are more expensive, and require more stringent licencing. They'll generally leave the surron for dead, sure, but you'd expect that when paying 2-3x as much.

I haven't gotten mine yet so I'll have to reserve judgement of performance till I do, but I dont see the justification for the issue people seem to have when saying its 'overpriced'. Show me the better one for the same price, or a equal one for less. And even if you do, show me one that can be registered so I dont have to ride as conservatively when on the road in order to not stand out, and can get a significant power boost for ~$1000 in parts (controller and paralleled lipo battery). The deposit i've paid is fully refundable so im happy to cancel my order if someone can point to such a unicorn - the sur ron is by no means my ideal bike, just one of the best ive seen available thus far.


edit:
for comparison (DH frame with similar ebike power, $AUD)
2nd hand DH bike: ~$2k
1.5kwh battery: ~$1500
battery charger: ~$100
5kw controller: ~$400
5kw motor: ~$400
chains and sprockets: ~$100
Bits and bobs to fit: ~$400++

thats all pretty conservative numbers - totaling $4900 before counting any of your own time putting it all together, for something roughly equivalent to the sur ron at ~$4900. And probably wont fit together as nicely as the sur ron, or be as durable (possibly remains to be seen). And 0 chance of having it meet legal registering rules for <$1k... which the sur ron does. As stated, im not seeing the issue some people have with the price.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by jonescg » Jul 09 2019 10:11pm

E-stuff is expensive, and high quality e-stuff is more expensive. There are folks out there who like what they see and are happy to pay the going rate for it. For what its worth, I can't build a bike that's as good for the same price or less... :|

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by Overclocker » Jul 09 2019 11:18pm

IMG_20190607_174131 (1) (Medium).jpg
well i built this bike which is similiar to the surron. it's even a bit lighter and holds more cells. total cost was still LESS than the price of a surron even if you include the cost of welding equipment and other tools.

but it sure took a LOT of time :lol:

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by MadRhino » Jul 09 2019 11:38pm

Yep, when I looked at the Surron frame, components and cost, I have found it's fair. Yet I would build a lot of upgrades, if the frame was bigger. Not a bike for me. I like big frames and large wheels in my trails.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by brumbrum » Jul 10 2019 3:32am

This cost me less to put together than a Sur-ron. About 12kg lighter and 10kw peak on 16s. Though i did have some bike parts and a CA knocking about in the garage.
Image
My NYX and cromotor build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74615
My LMX 161 dirt bike build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94074

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by Tommm » Jul 10 2019 8:09am

Mine also cost less and is ~33kg, about two-thirds the weight of the sur ron. A bit more power too (~6.2kW).

Much more stealth, I commute every day, put it on trains and trail ride every weekend. They even let me in some mtb bike parks (after giving the owners a few joy rides :lol: ).

Image

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by sn0wchyld » Jul 10 2019 9:02am

brumbrum wrote:
Jul 10 2019 3:32am
This cost me less to put together than a Sur-ron. About 12kg lighter and 10kw peak on 16s. Though i did have some bike parts and a CA knocking about in the garage.
Image
mate, love it. if it could be registered here i'd have to consider it again... but the frame kit is ~1.5-2k euro from memory, and cant find it on their site anymore? not seeing it being <5k aud at that starting point :P
Tommm wrote:
Jul 10 2019 8:09am
Mine also cost less and is ~33kg, about two-thirds the weight of the sur ron. A bit more power too (~6.2kW).

Much more stealth, I commute every day, put it on trains and trail ride every weekend. They even let me in some mtb bike parks (after giving the owners a few joy rides :lol: ).

Image
to be fair though, i don't think that'd be as good in the rough stuff as the surron, nor take the same abuse (frame wise)... thats the cyclone.tw mid drive though right? I'd considered their bikes vs the surron but wasn't sure on the frame quality/strength/ergo, and came in ~5k for one of their complete bikes too (delivered).
edit
Tommm do you mind sending me the dimensions of their mid drive? particularly the dia, width of main body and sprocket offset from the main body? could never find it on their site and they're never great at giving good measurements - wondering if its possible to retrofit it to an existing bike :P


keep the comparisons coming though, its good to see some nice builds i've missed!

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by Tommm » Jul 10 2019 10:53am

sn0wchyld wrote:
Jul 10 2019 9:02am

to be fair though, i don't think that'd be as good in the rough stuff as the surron, nor take the same abuse (frame wise)... thats the cyclone.tw mid drive though right? I'd considered their bikes vs the surron but wasn't sure on the frame quality/strength/ergo, and came in ~5k for one of their complete bikes too (delivered).
edit
Tommm do you mind sending me the dimensions of their mid drive? particularly the dia, width of main body and sprocket offset from the main body? could never find it on their site and they're never great at giving good measurements - wondering if its possible to retrofit it to an existing bike :P


keep the comparisons coming though, its good to see some nice builds i've missed!
Meh, the frame is good enough for light bike parking (red trails mainly, flowy with small jumps), under big jumps, you would probably twist something, but did you see a guy in the sur ron thread broke his linkage doing a jump? I lost a lot of respect for it then.

Yes, I bought it frame+motor only. Don't bother with the complete bike, the components/battery you will get are shiit with a markup and will get dinged with higher shipping/customs too.

The motor dia is exactly 136mm. Length is about 180mm depending how you measure it.
There are no bolts to mount it, as the motor is just a round cyclinder, you can push the motor to either side to align your front sprocket/chainline, so the exact measurement shouldn't matter.
This is the 4kw motor so it can do 72v with 80A for 5 mins, 120A for 30s. If you keep the gears (I did), you can go over 60mph easily, you won't be able to assist with the pedals because the rpm is stupid high (~700rpm) to keep the chain torque low.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by flat tire » Jul 10 2019 11:43am

Sur ron will definitely have issues if ridden hard too but nobody who buys a sur ron is capable of abusing it. If you can ride hard you wouldn't be caught dead on one. Take that statement with a small dose of reality and don't get upset, but it's true.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by Tommm » Jul 10 2019 12:01pm

flat tire wrote:
Jul 10 2019 11:43am
Sur ron will definitely have issues if ridden hard too but nobody who buys a sur ron is capable of abusing it. If you can ride hard you wouldn't be caught dead on one. Take that statement with a small dose of reality and don't get upset, but it's true.
Completely agree, the people who are breaking and machining custom linkages/swingarms have plenty of dirt bikes and (ab)use the sur ron as a toy.
The dirt bike look of the sur ron is mostly for style.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by tomjasz » Jul 11 2019 1:51am

A 250lb fella looks like an ape on his little sisters bike. Still kinda cool and doubtless it will evolve or be the seed planted for other builders.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by John in CR » Jul 11 2019 1:56am

BrumBrum's LMX build above is a more refined and better ebike in all respects than a SurRon, so if it came in at less cost, then that's the way to go. Over-hyped for sure, and AFAIC over-priced too.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by sn0wchyld » Jul 11 2019 4:37am

John in CR wrote:
Jul 11 2019 1:56am
BrumBrum's LMX build above is a more refined and better ebike in all respects than a SurRon, so if it came in at less cost, then that's the way to go. Over-hyped for sure, and AFAIC over-priced too.
quoting from brumbrum's build thread, in reference to the question 'how much'?:
"If buying everything, startng with nothing probably over £4k gbp"
which is a shame, i'd prefer the LMX but price wise the sur ron is borderline as it is. $3k aud pays for a lot of upgrades, or even a basic second bike.

My plans for the surron will initially result in (compared to brumrum's)
2.5 x the battery capacity,
~same power,
registered/street legal,
for ~$1000 less (~2000 less if not street legal trim)
not including shipping costs for the lmx bits,
and not counting labor, or alternatively
3600 less (4600 non street legal) than a pre-built lmx, before shipping $? from France, and ignoring the $1000 of GST (a cost that depends on if customs 'catch' it as it comes through), and still with more power, and 1.5x the battery capacity.

As I mentioned earlier, there isn't many (any?) options that really compete $/$. Some stuff gets close if you put in (plenty of) your own labour and/or find stuff particularly cheap, but doing it without compromise is difficult, to say the least - there's certainly (afaik) nothing off the shelf that competes, particularly when considering the upgrade potential and "registability" ... and I say this as someone who's still building another mid drive based on my norko frame, that will be close in performance to teh surron, possibly better in areas, albeit smaller battery. Will be over 5k though, counting cost of stuff I already have.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by Tommm » Jul 11 2019 5:23am

They should sell the sur ron frame/battery/motor only, so people wouldn't need to buy the bike with crap components, and then buy and fit some better ones. Eric has asked them afaik but they were reluctant.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by MadRhino » Jul 11 2019 5:56am

Tommm wrote:
Jul 11 2019 5:23am
They should sell the sur ron frame/battery/motor only, so people wouldn't need to buy the bike with crap components, and then buy and fit some better ones. Eric has asked them afaik but they were reluctant.
I would have been willing to buy the whole bike and re-build it for my requirements, if only they'd make it larger. I have a 'pit bike' feeling on the Sur-ron.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by sn0wchyld » Jul 11 2019 7:53am

MadRhino wrote:
Jul 11 2019 5:56am
Tommm wrote:
Jul 11 2019 5:23am
They should sell the sur ron frame/battery/motor only, so people wouldn't need to buy the bike with crap components, and then buy and fit some better ones. Eric has asked them afaik but they were reluctant.
I would have been willing to buy the whole bike and re-build it for my requirements, if only they'd make it larger. I have a 'pit bike' feeling on the Sur-ron.
outside of being road legal I couldn't agree more. Would be very happy with -2k to get a bike with everything but battery and controller (yea, shocks arn't great but passable enough for a first-round build, and probably cheap enough to be worth it).

And yea, if it was 20% bigger I dont think I'd be on the fence like i am atm.

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