is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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fechter   100 GW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by fechter » Jul 11 2019 8:03am

Of course building your own bike from scratch should be a lot cheaper (if you ignore your labor cost). But for off-the-shelf, ready to ride I haven't seen much that comes close for the price. Most of the places they got cheap are easy to upgrade.
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John in CR   100 GW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by John in CR » Jul 11 2019 10:46am

Having been hubmotoring for 12 years I don't know how you guys get past the noise. While I've made a couple of chain driven mid-drives that were near silent, they were both based on taking a hubbie out of the wheel, so the drive sprocket was quite large. Every video I hear with higher rpm mid-drives sound like electric chain saws to me, so I'd have to go belt drive.

I'm finally starting pull together parts for my first offroad ebike. I've have the 21" moto wheels for a while and recently scored a set of MX forks that needed repair for $10. I'll finally get one of my high efficiency MiniMonsters rewound to a Kv of 30-40, which when ventilated I'll be able to pump 30kw into, not bad for 8-9kg and that low Kv. Before it's all said and done I'll probably have less than $1,000 in it not counting my time, with the biggest cost being the controller. But that's only because I picked up the last of those out of production motors at half of the bulk rate price, $100 ea, and I got salvage price on some great e-car batteries at salvage price before they got into high demand ($100-$120/kwh). If I can find the right controller I'll use the beta test battery pack I received as a gift. The only significant thing left to find is an adjustable mono-shock up to the task for really cheap. I got lucky on the fork and was able to straighten the bent tube.

It will be a full size bike capable of much more than I am, and certainly put any SurRon to shame except in weight.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by Tommm » Jul 11 2019 11:00am

John in CR wrote:
Jul 11 2019 10:46am
Having been hubmotoring for 12 years I don't know how you guys get past the noise. While I've made a couple of chain driven mid-drives that were near silent, they were both based on taking a hubbie out of the wheel, so the drive sprocket was quite large. Every video I hear with higher rpm mid-drives sound like electric chain saws to me, so I'd have to go belt drive.
The sound of the motor has nothing to do with it being a mid drive. It has to do with being chain or belt driven(near silent), and square or sine wave driven(near silent).

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by flat tire » Jul 11 2019 1:43pm

Tommm wrote:
Jul 11 2019 11:00am
whoosh
You are so eager to explain that you misread his post. John already knows what you wrote and is complaining about the chain noise and it's implied the the difference of a mid drive over a hub is it's not direct drive and needs additional noisy linkage. The Surron has a louder chain noise than most bicycle mid drives because it uses a much heavier chain.

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brumbrum   100 kW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by brumbrum » Jul 11 2019 3:57pm

flat tire wrote:
Jul 11 2019 1:43pm
Tommm wrote:
Jul 11 2019 11:00am
whoosh
You are so eager to explain that you misread his post. John already knows what you wrote and is complaining about the chain noise and it's implied the the difference of a mid drive over a hub is it's not direct drive and needs additional noisy linkage. The Surron has a louder chain noise than most bicycle mid drives because it uses a much heavier chain.
My lmx also sounds like a chainsaw, and as John has said, how do i put up with it? It is something i am currently battling to overcome. The chain on the lmx is #219 pitch gokart chain so not as heavy duty as the chain on the surron, but without doubt just as noisey. The noise is genrated by the chain and the front small drive sprocket. The motor certainly is not quiet but I'm currently getting a 3D file made of the sprocket and will hopefully soon be trying out some different types of composites and resins as a substitute to steel. Realistically i am not sure i will find anything strong enough. A hardened nylon infused with carbonfibre sounds hopeful. Even then it will probably need changing every ride.
My NYX and cromotor build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74615
My LMX 161 dirt bike build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94074

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by flat tire » Jul 11 2019 5:36pm

There are plenty of belts that will take final drive power but belts have an issue offroad with debris.

For a quiet chain, look at cam chains. I know they have used those in higher power applications and they are much much quieter than roller chain.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by John in CR » Jul 11 2019 6:59pm

I think chain noise is due primarily to the small drive sprockets combined with the small pitch chains people seem to prefer with more links to make noise, along with the lack of chain tensioners that makes the chain rattle against itself. I used regular bike chain on my two efforts with no issues running over 5kw and near silence. Perfect alignment was critical along with tensioners (tensioners top and bottom on the one with regen). Most of what noise there was came from the chain interacting with the toothless tensioners. Limited reduction and large sprockets helped the bike chain dependable due to less force on the chain.

Not only is chain noise ugly but it means efficiency loss too. Motorcycles don't make as much chain noise as most mid-drives I've seen unless the motorcycle chain isn't properly adjusted. The whir of high rpm motors can sound cool, but not chain noise, which often really does sound like a $20 electric chain saw. About the only good it does is help a pedestrian hear you coming. Get a bike bell instead. :mrgreen:

"Silence is golden".

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by flat tire » Jul 11 2019 7:26pm

John in CR wrote:
Jul 11 2019 6:59pm
Motorcycles don't make as much chain noise as most mid-drives I've seen
Ha. Motorcycle roller chain like 520 is INCREDIBLY noisy. I have a Zero FXS with chain drive. It's almost as loud an an Alta MXR which has additional noise from reduction gearing. Exactly which full size electric motorcycles with chain drive have you ridden / heard in real life?

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brumbrum   100 kW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by brumbrum » Jul 12 2019 2:04am

flat tire wrote:
Jul 11 2019 5:36pm
There are plenty of belts that will take final drive power but belts have an issue offroad with debris.

For a quiet chain, look at cam chains. I know they have used those in higher power applications and they are much much quieter than roller chain.
Unfortunately a belt cannot be used on an lmx as there is no reduction in gearing as there is on the surron. If you think about it, a belt on an lmx would have to change tension as the swingarm altered position. On a surron the chain has a different pivot point due to the jack shaft gearing.
My NYX and cromotor build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74615
My LMX 161 dirt bike build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94074

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by boytitan » Jul 12 2019 6:21am

Every dirt bike build here required welding. The suron is a starter light electric dirt bike. Lets stop comparing it to t to e bikes for 1 it's meant for trails. I can't take my 2000+watt hub motor ebike on the trails a suron can handle. The suron can't ride around in streets as freely as my ebike. The suron also has high upgrade potential. Its mid drive is equal in potential to the cyc pro 900+ dollar mid drive.

For sreet use the csc city slicker is a actual street legal electric motorcycle for 2.8k and comes with a cyc pro mid drive. Again easy for a hobbiest to upgrade for 1-1.5k I could upgrade a sur ron or a city slicker into the 13kilowatt range easily. At most the sur ron is 500 bucks over priced. That aside it's a great buy.

I can't see how you would out build a 900 dollar mid drive, 700 dollar battery find a dirt bike frame and wheels for cheaper than a 500-800 dollar savings if you have the labor skills to do such. I shit on luna all the time but the sur ron is almost properly priced. I still would rather have a csc city slicker to upgrade.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by jimmyhackers » Jul 12 2019 11:42am

interesting about the noise complaints.

i removed the chain/pedals off my ebike almost instantly but more so becuase i hardly pedalled and the freewheel was constantly clacking away.

i really like the sound of my hub motor....it sounds like riding a tie fighter or speederbike from star wars :D

upto 18kw from a sur-ron.....even at 6kw..... at 60v thats 100-300amps max draw!! :0
from a 31.9AH battery....at 100amps max draw your talking 20 mins batery life. at 300amp your talking about 7minutes.

i know the bikes wont be at max amps constantly but.....it seems excessive. i can get my bike upto 60mph on a flat and about 40mph up a steep hill on 1500watts. my 12,000mah 72v lipo last about an hour without pedalling also.

i just dont get the point of a high power mid drive......expecially when the power is above 500-1000watts.....at 500watts or above you really wont be pedalling all that much. unless thats the point of mid drive......to make it look like your legs are more powerfull than they really are...
if you do learn from your mistakes, i should be a genius by now.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by fechter » Jul 12 2019 12:48pm

To me, there are two main advantages to a mid drive. One is you have much less unsprung weight on the rear wheel which gives better handling on bumpy trails. Second is hub motors have a tendency to overheat on long, steep, slow climbs. My A2B with a hub motor will climb the same hills as my mid drive bike, but overheats before I can get even part way up the hill.

For street use, the hub motor has a clear advantage.
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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by johnnyddn » Jul 12 2019 2:30pm

I've been checking out the bomber clone builds and some of them are reaching $3000+ on the builds. At that price point, would you guys prefer a Sur-Ron or Bomber Clone you built?

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by brumbrum » Jul 13 2019 3:00am

johnnyddn wrote:
Jul 12 2019 2:30pm
I've been checking out the bomber clone builds and some of them are reaching $3000+ on the builds. At that price point, would you guys prefer a Sur-Ron or Bomber Clone you built?
As said in the post above yours, it comes down to application. Road, off road, steep hills, top speed, pedals or not. As soon as most people buy a Surron they upgrade the brakes amd forks.
Last edited by brumbrum on Jul 15 2019 5:21am, edited 1 time in total.
My NYX and cromotor build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74615
My LMX 161 dirt bike build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94074

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by bucketwhisperer » Jul 14 2019 9:27pm

I feel overpriced as it is not street legal. So after paying that much, if i can't ride it on many places I see it as a very expensive toy. Other than that the bike configuration looks very high end.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by SlowCo » Jul 15 2019 5:20am

There is a street legal version of the Sur-Ron.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by markz » Jul 15 2019 12:00pm

That is one thing I did not like about the Cyclone 3kw that I purchased, people on the pathway would turn around and look to see what the noise was that was coming towards them. I would be like 30 or 50' away and they'd turn around, with a geared brushed that distance would be cut in half. Having a direct drive motor as the mid drive motor would be great, for a custom fabricated build. Then the look of the bicycle changes dramatically. Not even sure how'd one would build a dd motor where the crank is, would have to be dd motor in triangle, chain to md crank. Having a custom dd motor that is wider but still small diameter would be great.

Either way, too much work involved, best stick with dd motor and sinewave controller on a reliable bicycle.

John in CR wrote:
Jul 11 2019 10:46am
Having been hubmotoring for 12 years I don't know how you guys get past the noise. While I've made a couple of chain driven mid-drives that were near silent, they were both based on taking a hubbie out of the wheel, so the drive sprocket was quite large. Every video I hear with higher rpm mid-drives sound like electric chain saws to me, so I'd have to go belt drive.
ght.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by racingame » Jul 21 2019 2:09pm

SlowCo wrote:
Jul 15 2019 5:20am
There is a street legal version of the Sur-Ron.
He's from USA, and Luna only distributes offroad version afaik.

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Merlin   1 MW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by Merlin » Jul 21 2019 5:23pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Jul 11 2019 4:37am
John in CR wrote:
Jul 11 2019 1:56am
BrumBrum's LMX build above is a more refined and better ebike in all respects than a SurRon, so if it came in at less cost, then that's the way to go. Over-hyped for sure, and AFAIC over-priced too.
quoting from brumbrum's build thread, in reference to the question 'how much'?:
"If buying everything, startng with nothing probably over £4k gbp"
which is a shame, i'd prefer the LMX but price wise the sur ron is borderline as it is. $3k aud pays for a lot of upgrades, or even a basic second bike.

My plans for the surron will initially result in (compared to brumrum's)
2.5 x the battery capacity,
~same power,
registered/street legal,
for ~$1000 less (~2000 less if not street legal trim)
not including shipping costs for the lmx bits,
and not counting labor, or alternatively
3600 less (4600 non street legal) than a pre-built lmx, before shipping $? from France, and ignoring the $1000 of GST (a cost that depends on if customs 'catch' it as it comes through), and still with more power, and 1.5x the battery capacity.

As I mentioned earlier, there isn't many (any?) options that really compete $/$. Some stuff gets close if you put in (plenty of) your own labour and/or find stuff particularly cheap, but doing it without compromise is difficult, to say the least - there's certainly (afaik) nothing off the shelf that competes, particularly when considering the upgrade potential and "registability" ... and I say this as someone who's still building another mid drive based on my norko frame, that will be close in performance to teh surron, possibly better in areas, albeit smaller battery. Will be over 5k though, counting cost of stuff I already have.
in the fb group was some weeks ago a guy from poland selling an LMX Framekit. He said one of the last kits before homologated and it would be equal to the latest frame design.
dont kill me, i wanted to buy and make a hub conversion :mrgreen:

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by john61ct » Jul 21 2019 5:40pm


spinningmagnets wrote: Sketch Coleman built a real kick-ass E-dirtbike conversion, but he is not selling them.

He published all the details, ain't nothing to it but to do it...
Link? Found this, but not the buildIt thread
https://evnerds.com/electric-vehicles/e ... m-hubsink/


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Merlin   1 MW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by Merlin » Jul 21 2019 5:57pm

unfortunaly theres no build thread about his bike.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 21 2019 5:58pm

Can't find the link now. He used a Mobipus controller.

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by jimmyhackers » Jul 28 2019 8:23am

HAHA that would be interesting......putting a hub motor on a sur-ron frame...

it could settle this debate once and for all......
if you do learn from your mistakes, i should be a genius by now.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: is SUR-RON overpriced/overhyped?

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jul 28 2019 9:06am

surron bicycle with qs205 middrive :
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=99566
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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