I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by wturber » Jul 20 2019 7:38pm

I guess the more parts that are moving in a system, the greater the more places for fingers to get mangled.

On a rear hub motor I have found PAS less dangerous than my twist throttle. Under throttle only I have inadvertently twisted the throttle while not on the bike and it gets out of control fast in that situation. With PAS, it is hard to accidentally enable power

Of course, with any system the safe thing to do is disconnect power when fiddling with gears, chains and such. It's the same thing I do with power tools (circular saws in particular). If you are throwing chains on a mid drive, then maybe something is flexing under load?
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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by john61ct » Jul 20 2019 7:44pm

Yes a battery isolate switch seems obvious, never built any electric system over AA size without one.

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by BotoXbz » Jul 20 2019 8:11pm

Imo PAS is much more dangerous in situations where you only want to apply a little power (like in tight turns) but the motor amplifies your strength and it's way too much.

My BBSHD threw me off the bike that way when I forgot to turn off PAS in a tight turn on gravel.
I was going at about 5 km/h and pedalled a little because I was too slow and the tire instantly spinned out and I fell, I wasn't really injured at all due to the low speed.
A throttle is so much better since you can precisely control how much power you want and when.
PAS is only useful as cruise control on long straight roads but for that the implementation is completely wrong and dangerous as it doesn't disable when you brake or stop pedaling, imagine your car accelerating on it's own after releasing the brakes.

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by donn » Jul 20 2019 8:14pm

wturber wrote:
Jul 20 2019 7:05pm
...
I never use level 5 because my throttle will function while I'm pedaling and I can always get any power above my current level with a quick twist. People often think that Class 3 means "no throttle". But that is not what Class 3 legislation says.

Class 3 electric bicycle” shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with
a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that
ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28
miles per hour.
OK, you're right, "when the rider is pedaling" doesn't strictly speaking mean "only through the rider's action of pedaling". I am used to legislation drawn up in a remarkably slipshod way, and this could be that, but it is what it is.

Do the controllers on common factory PAS systems implement throttle control like that? Does yours? Pedalling enables the throttle?

The granny gear strategy doesn't appeal to me much. Even if you can install the necessary gears and derailleurs etc., you can't depend on them to be in super granny when you come to a stop, and with a conventional derailleur system you're stuck. Then if you don't have the muscle, or can't afford the joint strain, to power off in high gear, you're stuck. A throttle seems like a must-have in a cadence controlled PAS, and of course in this case, not "only when the rider is pedaling", though maybe you could split legal hairs and philosophize about what "pedaling" means when starting from 0rpm.

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by donn » Jul 20 2019 8:19pm

BotoXbz wrote:
Jul 20 2019 8:11pm
the implementation is completely wrong and dangerous as it doesn't disable when you brake or stop pedaling
This package: https://www.bafangusadirect.com/bafang- ... y-p/65.htm lists Bafang Mechanical Levers with built in Ebrake Cut Off as an option. If you didn't install anything like that, of course you won't get that cut-off. If you did, I guess something went wrong!

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by AHicks » Jul 20 2019 8:33pm

Not all PAS systems are created equal.

Some are keyed into 3 different power levels, from sedate to off road only. If the bike's power level is set to "off road only" the PAS sensor can trigger a pretty jumpy response from a stop or at low speeds when the pedals are moved. If set to the lowest power setting, when PAS engages, it's a much gentler push that results.

Other PAS systems aren't like that at all. There are no "power levels" to choose from in addition to the PAS level. When you turn the pedals 1/4 turn in PAS I you get a barely noticeable push. The throttles on these bikes generally don't care what the PAS setting is, and will give you any amount of power you want, from just a trickle for maneuvering at low speeds, to everything it's got for crossing a busy street. Useful to get the bike moving from a stop, or maybe providing a temporary little extra boost to top a small hill without bothering to adjust the PAS. In short, most that have them find they're pretty useful - once they get used to the bike.

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by john61ct » Jul 20 2019 9:44pm

Does putting a CA in the mix give finer control over how PAS works, or let you set up a "stealth throttle" of some kind?

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by donn » Jul 20 2019 10:03pm

john61ct wrote:
Jul 20 2019 9:44pm
Does putting a CA in the mix give finer control over how PAS works, or let you set up a "stealth throttle" of some kind?
I don't know that it's guaranteed to be an improvement - that would depend on what the controller offers - but CA can take throttle, PAS, ebrake, etc. signals and run the controller as a intelligent throttle input. My guess is that limiting factor is usually the PAS input signal.

And it implements the throttle-w/o-PAS speed limit I think LeftieBiker was talking about -
The speed limit menu contains settings relating to the Cycle Analyst limiting power based on the vehicle speed. This includes a maximum assist speed, a minimum speed for power to work, and even a maximum speed that only applies when the rider is using the throttle without pedaling.

These features are most often used to make setups comply with local ebike regulations that stipulate maximum speed for motor assistance, and sometimes a different limit when pedaling versus just using the throttle. A 3 term PID control algorithm is employed in firmware to enable a smooth rollback of motor power as target speed is reached without oscillation. The default feedback settings work well for most ebike systems with common PWM controllers, but they may need to be decreased for powerful ebikes, or increased by a factor of 2 or 3 for ebikes running a torque-based controller like the Phaserunner or Baserunner
Whether you could hook this CA "throttle" out connector up to a controller that only offers a PAS plug and no throttle, or if there are such controllers, no idea.

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by wturber » Jul 20 2019 11:56pm

donn wrote:
Jul 20 2019 8:14pm

Do the controllers on common factory PAS systems implement throttle control like that? Does yours? Pedalling enables the throttle?
I don't know what is standard, but I know the KT systems can do that and that is a pretty common low buck system.
donn wrote:
Jul 20 2019 8:14pm
The granny gear strategy doesn't appeal to me much. Even if you can install the necessary gears and derailleurs etc., you can't depend on them to be in super granny when you come to a stop, and with a conventional derailleur system you're stuck. Then if you don't have the muscle, or can't afford the joint strain, to power off in high gear, you're stuck. A throttle seems like a must-have in a cadence controlled PAS, and of course in this case, not "only when the rider is pedaling", though maybe you could split legal hairs and philosophize about what "pedaling" means when starting from 0rpm.
I agree that the granny gear is a kludge. But for someone truly so limited that they can't stand up on a pedal, then it may make more sense for them to have an internal gear rear hub so that they can shift gears at a stop and maybe a front hub motor. But yes, the best solution is to simply not have poorly thought out laws and to allow a throttle only system. Actually, Class 2 does allow that, but then limits you to 20 mph as your top assisted speed. Anyway, I were in a situation where starting unassisted was difficult or not possible, I'd have no problem having an "illegal" throttle. I'd take my chance with a LEO or lower court traffic judge if it came to that. Most of these folks are reasonable if you give them a chance.

A throttle on start is not necessary for a normally able person. But that doesn't mean its OK to restrict them to PAS only either.
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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by john61ct » Jul 21 2019 12:45am

And in that scenario, those local / state laws are overridden by fed ADA anyway

see OPDMD "any mobility device powered by batteries, fuel, or other engines… that is used by individuals with mobility disabilities for the purpose of locomotion, including golf cars, electronic personal assistance mobility devices… such as the Segway PT, or any mobility device designed to operate in areas without defined pedestrian routes, but that is not a wheelchair".

When an OPDMD is being used by a person with a mobility disability, different rules apply. . .

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by wturber » Jul 21 2019 2:55am

john61ct wrote:
Jul 21 2019 12:45am
And in that scenario, those local / state laws are overridden by fed ADA anyway

see OPDMD "any mobility device powered by batteries, fuel, or other engines… that is used by individuals with mobility disabilities for the purpose of locomotion, including golf cars, electronic personal assistance mobility devices… such as the Segway PT, or any mobility device designed to operate in areas without defined pedestrian routes, but that is not a wheelchair".

When an OPDMD is being used by a person with a mobility disability, different rules apply. . .
But it continues,
Public and private entities must make reasonable modifications in their policies, practices, or procedures to permit individuals with mobility disabilities to use OPDMDs, unless the entity can demonstrate that the class of OPDMDs cannot be operated in accordance with legitimate safety requirements.


I think that may not apply to bikes because bikes are designed to operate in areas with [and without] defined pedestrian routes - namely roads, multi-use paths etc.

But even if my interpretation above is wrong, I think you could pretty easily argue in those places that have the three class system that Class 2 provides a reasonable accommodation and that no modification is warranted or special modification to existing rules is warranted. The ADA says that they must be permitted to used their OPDMDs. It doesn't give them carte blanche to operate them at any speed or in any manner that pleases them.

I think all of this circles back to the notion of acting reasonably and not doing stunts or otherwise behaving in such a way as to attract a lot of attention. That and the occasional blatant lie - though you may not want to lie to a police officer. In that case, maybe just act dumb.
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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by john61ct » Jul 21 2019 3:10am

I am not **at all** saying ADA would allow for faster or more dangerour behaviour.

Just a waiver of a stupid no-throttle PAS-only rule, for those who can't stand up on their pedal.

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by donn » Jul 21 2019 10:13am

john61ct wrote:
Jul 21 2019 3:10am
Just a waiver of a stupid no-throttle PAS-only rule, for those who can't stand up on their pedal.
wturber's saying a state that defines multiple ebike classes, might be able to argue that the rules already accommodate that person, if one of the classes does - so they wouldn't be entitled to any waiver.

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by john61ct » Jul 21 2019 10:40am

I'd bet IRL with a genuine disability, enforcement would be lenient.

And if not a judge would be.

But that's just my opinion and IANAL

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by LeftieBiker » Jul 22 2019 2:49am

I had to get a Doctor's statement to apply for a Disabled placard for my car. I carry a copy of that letter on my e-bike. I haven't had to use it yet, but I hope it would carry some weight if I did.

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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by kcuf » Jul 22 2019 11:26am

throttle ban ignorant


reasonable laws

brake cutoffs

lighting if night

ride safely
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Re: I saw a park ranger call out an e-bike rider on FL bike path.......

Post by wturber » Jul 22 2019 1:12pm

kcuf wrote:
Jul 22 2019 11:26am
throttle ban ignorant


reasonable laws

brake cutoffs

lighting if night

ride safely
complete sentences

good thing
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
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