Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

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skestans   10 mW

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Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by skestans » Jul 26 2019 4:49am

I plan on building one around a TSDZ2 and a Marin Muirwoods, plus another one around a Cube Hyde.

Is it realistic to expect riding these for commuting to work (10-20km return max) even through rain or winter (full fenders)? Or mid-drives and batteries are only made for fair weather or the occasional light rain?

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Lebowski   1 GW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by Lebowski » Jul 26 2019 5:21am

I did 25km a day on my homemade bike with my homemade motor and homemade controller. All worked flawlessly for 11000km at which point the batteries were end of life...

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by LeftieBiker » Jul 26 2019 5:49am

What are the lowest temperatures you expect to encounter? Batteries don't do well far below freezing. I also suggest you design the pack to be stored and charged indoors. That means easy on and easy off the bike.

skestans   10 mW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by skestans » Jul 26 2019 6:00am

Lebowski wrote:
Jul 26 2019 5:21am
I did 25km a day on my homemade bike with my homemade motor and homemade controller. All worked flawlessly for 11000km at which point the batteries were end of life...
I was more worried about the winter weather rather than longevity. 11k km in clement weather would be different that 11k km in winter I suppose.

skestans   10 mW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by skestans » Jul 26 2019 6:02am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Jul 26 2019 5:49am
What are the lowest temperatures you expect to encounter? Batteries don't do well far below freezing. I also suggest you design the pack to be stored and charged indoors. That means easy on and easy off the bike.
Temperatures range from -10C to +30C, typically. There is between 50 and 150mm of rain depending on the season with 10-15 days of rain/month.

I do plan on storing and charging the pack indoors, yes. I'm worried about rain, snow, and salt (ice) potentially coming in contact with the battery and the motor while I'm getting around.

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by LeftieBiker » Jul 26 2019 7:24am

It's easy to seal a pack from the elements. It's a bit harder to do it with a motor, so you'll need the most water-resistant mid-drive available. Given those will be on the bike I wouldn't expect any big problems with water/salt incursion. Remember to size the pack 50% larger (at least) than you will need for Summer riding.

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Lebowski   1 GW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by Lebowski » Jul 26 2019 9:14am

Yep, also used it at -10C. One day while cycling in the snow I had so much ice on my rear sprockets that the pedalling chain kept slipping (it was ice-rain, the whole sprocket thing was a block of ice) but the motor was fine. Rode to work the last 5 km on motor only (which used a separate chain to the wheel).

All this between Adliswil and Zurich Technopark (it froze up about 1km before Sihlcity).

More critical to winter performance is not to let your battery get cold. I had garage parking at home and work so it was always around 15C when starting out for trips.

P.s. i used the ebike in winter with spiked tires...

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by markz » Jul 26 2019 12:34pm

Switzerland is a very awesome country, been there once and man oh man was it a great country.

I ride year round in Canada, its harsher weather then Switzerland.
I'd go for a direct drive motor kit, like the Leafmotor/Leafbike kits, and have a easily removable battery to bring in with you.
If cant do that, then have a little heater wrapped around the battery. You could use "Battery Heater" meant for a vehicle, or make your own heater by using Chromium wire used in Vaporizors cig replacements, Fasttech.com sells that wire. Then calculate how much heat you want for a given temperature.

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by flat tire » Jul 26 2019 12:44pm

Switzerland seems like it would be one of the worst places for diy ebikes with extremely strict police enforcement.

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by wturber » Jul 26 2019 1:47pm

flat tire wrote:
Jul 26 2019 12:44pm
Switzerland seems like it would be one of the worst places for diy ebikes with extremely strict police enforcement.
They allow 45 km/hr speed pedelecs with 1000 watt motors. You must register, but registration also pays for your insurance. They also allow 25km/hr pedelecs with 500 watts (no registration). As e-bike rules go, these seem like some of the better ones in Europe.

Perhaps they have some restriction on DIY ebikes I'm not aware of?
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

skestans   10 mW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by skestans » Jul 26 2019 1:55pm

I plan on using a TSDZ2 as a motor. I don't know about rules against DIY ebikes. Everyone seems to have no problem spending 5k CHF on a mass market ebike with 250W motors. I hope their Eis nothing against diy but I haven't seen any and I can't understand German very well so my research didn't go very far.

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Lebowski   1 GW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by Lebowski » Jul 26 2019 2:49pm

There are some restrictions (but don't take my word for it). Bikes with gashandle, only up to 20 kmh, pedal assist up to 25. Forget about getting a 45 kmh homemade bike approved, so many hoops to jump through... Best is just to be aware you're doing illegal stuff, so don't draw attention to yourself. When I rode mine there were not many ebikes around, no one paid attention. But now...

skestans   10 mW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by skestans » Jul 26 2019 10:11pm

I don't think I want to go that fast anyway, I'd be happy with 25-30km/h. The TSDZ2's open source firmware also has a street mode that limits the power and speed, and an off-road mode where you can have a higher power and speed limit. It can be toggled on the go without reprogramming. I might just use that to be compliant (and, I assume, retain insurance coverage should anything happen)

The restrictions seem to be 25kmh max with a 500W max motor, or 45kmh max with a 1000W motor but then you're considered a cyclomotor and have to have a registration plate, insurance, and wear a helmet. Source https://m-way.ch/fr/legislation

I didn't see any restrictions in terms of diy VS factory made/approved.

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by wturber » Jul 27 2019 12:51am

skestans wrote:
Jul 26 2019 10:11pm

I didn't see any restrictions in terms of diy VS factory made/approved.
You may want to check with your DMV just to be sure. I read an account of a guy how purchase a ready-made ebike in Germany, but ended up in bureaucratic hell when they gave him the a Certificate of Conformity for the wrong class of bike. He got the correct C of C, but then they complained that they couldn't register a bike that had two C of Cs. Aaaarghhh. His solution was to take the bike back to Germany and get it registered there. That way he could use the German registration to establish registration in Switzerland and bypass the need for a C of C.

Who knows. Maybe this was just a fluke. But I'd check first before spending money. Maybe some kits will be easier to get certified than others? Like maybe the ones from Swiss makers. :^)
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by Ford Prefect » Jul 27 2019 1:27am

The ebike kit is not the problem registering a high power ebike, but everything else. You need a technical test and proof for the frame, the brakes, the handlebars, the pedals, …
It is easy to use ebike approved "everything" - but not the frame. To get your frame approved can be hideously difficult and expensive.
If you buy a ready made high power ebike the manufacturer gets his stuff approved (and pays the price) and hands you the certificate. For him the financial investment is worth it, since he sells more than just one.
The fundamental laws of thermodynamics will place fixed limits on technological innovation and human advancement.

How would you react if I said that I'm not from Guildford after all, but from a small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse?

skestans   10 mW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by skestans » Jul 27 2019 1:30am

But why would I need a certificate of conformity if I'm not building the 45 km/h version (the one that requires insurance, a license plate, and is considered a high power motorbike in CH)?

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by amberwolf » Jul 27 2019 1:37am

I guess an important unasked question is:

Is the bike *rider* in question able and willing to ride in all the weather conditions expected, for the distances expected? ;)

skestans   10 mW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by skestans » Jul 27 2019 2:03am

amberwolf wrote:
Jul 27 2019 1:37am
I guess an important unasked question is:

Is the bike *rider* in question able and willing to ride in all the weather conditions expected, for the distances expected? ;)
I think I'm good, I used to ride year long in Canada (on a regular bicycle though)

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by Ford Prefect » Jul 27 2019 2:49am

skestans wrote:
Jul 27 2019 1:30am
But why would I need a certificate of conformity if I'm not building the 45 km/h version (the one that requires insurance, a license plate, and is considered a high power motorbike in CH)?
In that case, you will not.
The fundamental laws of thermodynamics will place fixed limits on technological innovation and human advancement.

How would you react if I said that I'm not from Guildford after all, but from a small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse?

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Lebowski   1 GW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by Lebowski » Jul 27 2019 2:59am

https://www.baselland.ch/politik-und-be ... e-eigenbau

Have a look at the pdf, page 5. I think this is the type you want to build. 20kmh with gas, 25 kmh without so only support when pedalling (hybrid use as they call it). Then on page 6 in the blue column it mentions 500W, so make sure the motor has a sticker on it with the maker, type and Watts. This is the dauerleistung (so long term average power), momentary power can be higher. The popular Bosch motors for instance have 250W, but can do 750 for a short time.

skestans   10 mW

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Re: Is it realistic to expect using y DIY ebike all year round in Switzerland?

Post by skestans » Jul 27 2019 3:01am

Lebowski wrote:
Jul 27 2019 2:59am
https://www.baselland.ch/politik-und-be ... e-eigenbau

Have a look at the pdf, page 5. I think this is the type you want to build. 20kmh with gas, 25 kmh without so only support when pedalling (hybrid use as they call it). Then on page 6 in the blue column it mentions 500W, so make sure the motor has a sticker on it with the maker, type and Watts. This is the dauerleistung (so long term average power), momentary power can be higher. The popular Bosch motors for instance have 250W, but can do 750 for a short time.
Thank you, that's helpful. Now I have to find where to print a professional looking sticker that can withstand elements to slap on the TSDZ2!

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