18% regeneration?

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donn   1 kW

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18% regeneration?

Post by donn » Jul 31 2019 5:49pm

Actually 18.1%. That's what Cycle Analyst reported, after a little 11 mile round trip errand. Does that seem suspiciously high, or just auspiciously high?

16 mph avg speed, 11 Wh/mile, 2.53 Ah down, 2.99 Ah "forward". Fairly high, upright recumbent, no fairing, direct drive hub motor from West Coast Electric Vehicles (now not so much in that business), possibly similar to Leaf, higher turn count winding of the two options. So, plausibly a best case scenario: heavy, low wind resistance, moderate speed. No extreme hills, 4 - 5% grade at worst.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by flat tire » Jul 31 2019 5:53pm

Not if you went down a mountain but most likely you need to zero your current consumption, and / or left the bike sitting for a while with slightly off zero point indicating negative current flow and it can accumulate a lot of fake regen that way.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by dogman dan » Aug 01 2019 9:50am

Suspiciously high for sure. Not impossible if you start out on top of a mountain, but not realistic for up and down rolling hills at all.

Best I ever saw myself, was way below 5%

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by miro13car » Aug 01 2019 11:21am

On my EPLUS on hilly terain raids CA shows 10% many times.
All depends what edrive do you use.
EPLUS has 9 regen levels - unmatched by any other bike edrive out there, DIY or factory.
DO NOT forget about brake pads wear.
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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by flat tire » Aug 01 2019 1:31pm

miro13car wrote:
Aug 01 2019 11:21am
EPLUS has 9 regen levels - unmatched by any other bike edrive out there, DIY or factory.
Now that's just retarded. Ever heard of variable regen, like thru a second throttle?

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by dogman dan » Aug 01 2019 5:59pm

Not retarded at all. I would have liked a less strong regen choice on the primitive controller I was using when I had regen. One reason I got so little out of regen was that it was so strong I used it only to stop. Going down hills it would slow me to 5 mph, and so was not worth using. That made my % even smaller. 10% sounds plausible to me for sure, but I still find 18% suspicious.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by Bigwheel » Aug 01 2019 6:13pm

flat tire wrote:
Aug 01 2019 1:31pm
miro13car wrote:
Aug 01 2019 11:21am
EPLUS has 9 regen levels - unmatched by any other bike edrive out there, DIY or factory.
Now that's just retarded. Ever heard of variable regen, like thru a second throttle?
CAIII displays allow for variable regen via the throttle if you feel like working two things at once or can be set to different levels. I use mine all the time, it's like an eJake brake. Plus mine is on the front which I personally prefer.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by flat tire » Aug 01 2019 6:45pm

9 separate levels is not sophisticated at all.

A custom configurable regen from analog control has like 1000+ (dunno the resolution of their adc) so in other words it feels totally smooth and continuous, from almost nothing to lock up the wheel. I have that power in my left hand on a Domino. THAT is sophistication.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by miro13car » Aug 01 2019 7:15pm

YOU sound retarded .
I never said I use throttle for regulating regen.
I dont want to use throttle for this.
my throttle is for acceleration.
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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by flat tire » Aug 01 2019 7:20pm

I called your idea retarded, not you. Stay away from personal attacks.

Anyway, it's a SEPARATE throttle that I use for regen. On the other side of the bars, on a bike with QS205. No rear brake, just analog regen. It is freaking sublime.

Your bike's 9 levels might as well be Dante's 9 levels cuz they are way below where my bike is, or where your bike COULD be.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by NCC1941 » Aug 01 2019 9:04pm

You can even use a regular brake lever for analog regen, which is how I run mine, if you're willing to get a bit creative.

No need to rewire my brain for how to brake (though I did go the throttle route for a while, and it was easy to get used to), just a normal brake lever that smoothly actuates regen force... like a brake lever.
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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by donn » Aug 01 2019 9:18pm

There are varying ebrakes, too, am I right? Pull harder, get more regen.

I have to say I have not really missed the fine grain control so much. If I'm slowing down too much, I just let off the brake. Sometimes it would be nice to have a stiffer regen force, but I don't know if that's really a possibility, whether I had variable control or not.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by NCC1941 » Aug 01 2019 9:27pm

donn wrote:
Aug 01 2019 9:18pm
There are varying ebrakes, too, am I right? Pull harder, get more regen.
Are there? All of my searches have come up empty, which is what led me down the route to making something custom. If there's a ready-made solution like that, I'd love to know about it.
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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 01 2019 10:00pm

NCC1941 wrote:
Aug 01 2019 9:27pm
donn wrote:
Aug 01 2019 9:18pm
There are varying ebrakes, too, am I right? Pull harder, get more regen.
Are there? All of my searches have come up empty, which is what led me down the route to making something custom. If there's a ready-made solution like that, I'd love to know about it.
"NCC1941" Bozemann, right?

I haven't found a commercially-available variable-output brake lever, other than one Grin Tech made for a short time with a strip sensor on the lever handle forward edge. Don't recall what sensor it was, probably just like the ones used for slide controls on MIDI instruments, and touchpads on laptops.

There's a few possible ways to create one, one of which is to use the cable from it to operate a cable-operated throttle unit, with pulley or gearing as needed to give the amount of output range required for the cable pull the lever will create. Something like that is what I was planning, to use this function on SB Cruiser when I get to the complete rewiring and the install of the Grinfineons in place of the generic controllers I'm using now.


What method did you use? (you can make a thread for it, with pics, etc., if you prefer, and link it here). It would be useful to have around.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 01 2019 10:07pm

donn wrote:
Aug 01 2019 9:18pm

I have to say I have not really missed the fine grain control so much. If I'm slowing down too much, I just let off the brake.
When you have very strong regen, it can make braking uncontrollable (instant skid on a light enough setup and rider).

Also, having variable control of the force means less shock force to the axle from the braking torque, so less risk of dropout damage or axle breakage.
Sometimes it would be nice to have a stiffer regen force, but I don't know if that's really a possibility, whether I had variable control or not.
It is, depending on the controller. The current batch of Grinfineons from http://ebikes.ca will give about half of the potential regen force if you just use a braking switch that goes full on or full off. But if you use the variable voltage range on it instead (0v-0.8v, IIRC) then you get the complete 0-100% of braking force available.

The PHaserunner may also be like this, though I havent' got one to check.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by billvon » Aug 01 2019 10:12pm

amberwolf wrote:
Aug 01 2019 10:07pm
The PHaserunner may also be like this, though I havent' got one to check.
Phaserunner is completely programmable, so you can set the force however you want. Usually it all comes off the throttle input.
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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by NCC1941 » Aug 01 2019 10:34pm

amberwolf wrote:
Aug 01 2019 10:00pm
"NCC1941" Bozemann, right?
Yep! :D
amberwolf wrote:
Aug 01 2019 10:00pm
There's a few possible ways to create one, one of which is to use the cable from it to operate a cable-operated throttle unit, with pulley or gearing as needed to give the amount of output range required for the cable pull the lever will create.
That's similar to my solution, though I haven't done anything to change the physical cable pull ratio, instead I use a CA3 to map the cable throttle unit's signal voltage to a more normal voltage range for my controllers. Since the CA3 doesn't have a separate analog brake input, I set the lever up so it sends an ebrake signal just before the throttle ramps up (so it acts as a variable regen brake by default), and I have a momentary button which disconnects that lever's ebrake line, so I can use it as a throttle while holding that button down.
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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 01 2019 11:08pm

@donn: sorry to continue the OT, but:


I think the way mine will have to work, if I understand the manual
https://www.ebikes.ca/documents/Grinfineon_V2.2.pdf
correctly, is that my "analog" ebrake lever will have to first turn on ebraking, then disconnect the throttle signal line from the controller and connect the controller's throttle signal to the lever's analog output of 0-0.8v. (because I don't want to use the lever for a throttle; I have PAS control over that, as well as independent left/right throttles for overrides / torque steering). When the lever is released completely, it reverses the connection changes and lets off the ebrake line. It'll probably use a relay to do the switching.

It'll probably take me a while to get the circuit worked out to do things glitchlessly, but since the ebrake input doesn't appear to allow analog input directly into it (which is a shame), its' the only way I can find to make this work via "just" the lever.

I also have the CA3, but can't use it to do this because it doesn't have a separate analog ebrake input either.

I'd give up the thermal sensor input, if I could get this feature.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by donn » Aug 01 2019 11:37pm

amberwolf wrote:
Aug 01 2019 10:07pm
The current batch of Grinfineons from http://ebikes.ca will give about half of the potential regen force if you just use a braking switch that goes full on or full off. But if you use the variable voltage range on it instead (0v-0.8v, IIRC) then you get the complete 0-100% of braking force available.
Mine's apparently an Infineon KH6xx, whatever that means, and configurable (? "EBS force", range 0-200, set to 80.) Don't know if it would be responsive to voltage variation. There's also "EBS limit voltage" (77.0V) and "Slip charge" (Disabled.)

I have no idea where I got the impression that there's such a thing as variable ebrakes. Your variable voltage range response tells me there is or was an intention in that direction. Seems to me it could be a little tricky, trying to cram a lot of control into a small lever travel before physical brake contact.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by Bigwheel » Aug 01 2019 11:59pm

I was ruminating on today's ride about this thread and how it relates to how I use my regen on a daily basis. My decision to go with a momentary switch instead of variable, although as I mentioned the CA allows for changing v, to begin with was because it was the simplest solution.

I placed it on the side of the front brake hood using a Bobmount and it falls nicely to my thumb and I can reach around with my fingers and activate the brake lever easily. The peak feedback wattage I ever see is around 500 and that is using it as a drag brake that keeps me at around 30mph without using my brakes on downhills.
thumbnail_IMG_1982.jpg
thumbnail_IMG_1982.jpg (136.01 KiB) Viewed 377 times
At this point it is the first "brake" I reach for every time to start the slow down process or just scrub a little speed.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by John in CR » Aug 02 2019 12:04am

I've seen 20%+ regen lots of times on flat terrain. That's with jackrabbit riding, but not to high speed and very little cruising steady, so lots of braking with lots of coasting, including an effort to use only regen for braking. That kind of in town riding is mostly accelerate, coast a bit, and regen brake without many full stops.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 02 2019 1:02am

donn wrote:
Aug 01 2019 11:37pm
Mine's apparently an Infineon KH6xx, whatever that means, and configurable (? "EBS force", range 0-200, set to 80.) Don't know if it would be responsive to voltage variation. There's also "EBS limit voltage" (77.0V) and "Slip charge" (Disabled.)
Slip charge, also called slip regen, means that if you roll off the throttle rather than letting it snap back to zero, it will actively brake to try to keep you at the new speed the throttle is at. Snapping it to zero just cuts throttle without braking. I don't know if yours would be proportional regen when doing that, but I expect it is not, and only does on/off braking at the level of EBS Force you've setup.

EBS force is just how much regen braking you get when you engage the ebrake signal line "on". 80 is less than half of it's capability if it's max is 200 (assuming 0 is none). But you can't change this on the fly with those controllers; you can only do it when stopped and probalby with teh controller not powered by the battery (only by the programming cable), and then power cycle the controller to make it take effect.

EBS limit voltage means if your pack voltage is presently higher than that, it won't do any regen so it doesn't overcharge your battery.
Your variable voltage range response tells me there is or was an intention in that direction. Seems to me it could be a little tricky, trying to cram a lot of control into a small lever travel before physical brake contact.
This particular type of function has existed for a few years in some controllers, but not all of them. Even Grin's controllers don't always have it. The generation just before what I got back in 2013 had it, but then the one I got happened to be from the next batch and it didn't, which was really disappointing at the time. The one after that did have it, and so does the one I got a pair of to setup on the trike to replace the generics presetnly on there.

Many more advanced controllers have (and have had for a long time) this kind of function. Sevcon, some Kelly, ASI (and thus Phaserunner), DIY stuff like Lebowski, probably some Curtis, and other big name brands used in OEM vehicle production that I can't recall ATM. Many of these controllers have to be "tuned" for the motor being used, though, or they don't operate properly, and that can be quite a complicated process, and/or require expensive hardware and software to do (Sevcon, for instance).

I forget what controller the Vectrix used, but it had a custom throttle that was sort of like a slip regen, except that throttle was everything "forward" of the stop detent, and braking was everyting "bakward" of that.

Those more advanced controllers actually have completely separate variable-voltage ebrake inputs, and don't rely on the "hack" method implemented in these "generic" controllers, which uses the ebrake input like normal, as a switch to activate braking, and then have the MCU read the throttle signal as a brake amount.

THe narrow travel of ebrake before mechanical brake is easy to fix--use two levers. ;) In my case I have no mechanical rear brake, so the lefthand lever is ebrake-only. The right lever is just the front disc brake.

Or, use a second lever "face" in front of the mechanical brake lever, that is kinda like the little lever in a set of visegrips, except on the outside. It'd be spring loaded return, and/or use a spring-loaded cable pull to a sensor elsewhere.


Not part of what you were saying but: As far as the narrow range of signal on the generics like Grinfineon goes, that's irrelevant to the amount of control you have, because you can scale any control input into that range. That's what the Cycle Analyst v3 does with teh throttle and braking; you can map whatever ranges you need for each, IIRC. You could custom make whatever electronics you wanted to to do this same scaling if you like. Or do a switching arrangment like I prbably will, to use a completely separate voltage source and range for the braking vs the throttle.
Last edited by amberwolf on Aug 02 2019 1:07am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by flat tire » Aug 02 2019 1:04am

NCC1941 wrote:
Aug 01 2019 9:04pm
You can even use a regular brake lever for analog regen, which is how I run mine, if you're willing to get a bit creative.

No need to rewire my brain for how to brake (though I did go the throttle route for a while, and it was easy to get used to), just a normal brake lever that smoothly actuates regen force... like a brake lever.
OK, so you used a transducer or what? Please share. Anyway you're missing the point and it's irrelevant which analog input you use: the point is variable analog regen is the way to go. If it's on a lever, throttle, or pedal like a motorcycle, that's your choice.

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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by NCC1941 » Aug 02 2019 2:02am

flat tire wrote:
Aug 02 2019 1:04am
OK, so you used a transducer or what? Please share. Anyway you're missing the point and it's irrelevant which analog input you use: the point is variable analog regen is the way to go. If it's on a lever, throttle, or pedal like a motorcycle, that's your choice.
I'm not sure how explicitly agreeing with you is 'missing the point', but okay. I was just offering my experience with a 'more typical' brake input method, for someone who balked at the idea of using a throttle for that purpose.

As for the 'how', I'm using a cable throttle -> hall signal box (I bought mine from electricscooterparts.com, but I wouldn't recommend their particular unit - its throttle curve is asinine even for its intended use, and I had to mod it to get anything approaching a usable throttle range for my oddball use), with the cable operated by a standard mechanical ebrake lever. The throttle and the ebrake signal both go to my CA3, where I set the throttle range so that it doesn't start to send signal to the controllers until just further in the lever travel than the point where the ebrake signal activates. That way, the lever acts as a variable regen lever by default. I then have a momentary button set up to interrupt that lever's ebrake line when pressed, which lets the brake lever function as my throttle only when I want it to.
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Re: 18% regeneration?

Post by flat tire » Aug 02 2019 4:20am

I'll put that down to miscommunication. Lever would be much better with pressure sensor. Then it feels like an actual brake. You could use a partial hydraulic circuit with expensive racing lever, some of them offer electronic signal off the fluid pressure for datalogging. I tried my own lever based on a load cell but the output lagged too much to be useful. Probably because it had a cheap amplifier. I'd like to try my first idea in the future.

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