Hub motor industry dying?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by MadRhino » Aug 17 2019 6:35pm

We have made, and some manufacturers are making, hub motors with liquid cooling. Yet, no hubs had been made with advantageous power to weight ratio to take real advantage of active cooling.

The one that was tried here was a Clyte HS, that is a pretty light motor with poor life expectation in mountain trails. It was cooled very cheap, with a few turns of alu tubing in the stator, a very small radiator on the down tube, and a computer cooling pump. A friend who is well over 200 lbs did ride it in the mountain a whole season and it survived. In the meantime I had fried half a dozen of those HS motors in the same trails.

He still has that motor alive, but doesn’t ride it anymore because a HS is not powerful enough. QS motor are making a 273 with liquid cooling, but it is too heavy. What we need is a cooled motor that is made powerful, with light weight materials.
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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Ianhill » Aug 19 2019 6:26pm

Flipsky got a liquid cooled motor 18kw 360amp burst 14krpm 150kv in a small 9097size can I would like to have a test of this with the matching controller, i dont really know of any motors that are of simular size and power that can compete on price $659 but being a new motor and controller id like to see a few smooth reviews first before trying to set up one of these on a kuberg freerider

Mind the graph below doesn't match the spec sheet at all seems to be a little less powerful than suggested based on the graph it's very simular to the stock motor I have that's about 15% larger so really all is gain is liquid cooling when I want more power capability too down the line.
1_04a31c26-3a46-4ce2-b071-4b67553b945a_2048x2048.jpg
1_04a31c26-3a46-4ce2-b071-4b67553b945a_2048x2048.jpg (73.09 KiB) Viewed 656 times

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Cephalotus » Sep 13 2019 2:52am

Ford Prefect wrote:
Aug 08 2019 1:33pm
No-one gets pulled over for riding an illegal vehicle. You can ride as fast as you want - No-one cares.
That's not true. If you obviously ride a motorcycle without insurance plate they will stop you. Expect to pay around one month salary if they get you for the first time (ridng a motor vehicle without insurance maybe riding without a driving licence, too, the rest is minor)
If you get yourself in a collision and you are on an illegal vehicle you can be financially ruined for the rest of your life and you can even go to jail. This can happen on a normal non-E bike, too. For example when you cause a collision and the police find you had no rear brake - or it was midnight and you had no lights. Your Insurance won't pay! "Personenschäden" meaning "damaged persons" can be really, really expensive.
First you need an insurance. Pedelecs are condideres biycyles and do not need any motor vehicle insurance, that's the main point of them. You need your private Haftpflicht and this one will pay, no matter what you do. They can get some money back from you in certain cases, but you will not be ruined. That's the idea about insurance.

if you drive a motor vehicle (everything faster or more powerful than a Pedelec) you need that insurance. Again it doesn't matter much if you rremove the barkes or anything, in the worst case you pay 5000e regress in Germany.

The only real and very big problem is if you drive a motor vehicle without insurnace. In that case you can be financialy ruined for the rest of your life.

If a Pedelec is to slow for you there are easy solutions: Just buy a Speed Pedeec and pay isurance for it (not expensive) and you are able to ride at 45km/h which is quite fast for a Bicycle type vehicle imho.

if it is not fast enough buy an (electric ) motor cycle. For this you also need insurance and a special driving license.I don't think that this is a bad idea.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by qwerkus » Sep 13 2019 2:24pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Sep 13 2019 2:52am
If a Pedelec is to slow for you there are easy solutions: Just buy a Speed Pedeec and pay isurance for it (not expensive) and you are able to ride at 45km/h which is quite fast for a Bicycle type vehicle imho.

if it is not fast enough buy an (electric ) motor cycle. For this you also need insurance and a special driving license.I don't think that this is a bad idea.
Not sure if this is getting too OT, but S-Pedelec is not really an interesting category in Europe. Sure you can ride a little faster, but since it's considered a lightweight motor vehicle it basically means you cannot use any of the bicycle advantages, ie. bike lanes. You are stuck with the stench of cars on the street many times heavier than you for a marginal gain in speed.

I think all cyclist should automatically be covered by a special insurance funded through carbon tax, and the legislation should allow for motors up to 1000W (in relation to the weight of the vehicle) and 35km/h, which is the speed most cyclist reach in the city anyway. The stronger motors are required for cargo (children!) and moutaineous aeras. Only than can we really start to get rid of cars. Right now, people just buy a car and an ebike.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Ianhill » Sep 13 2019 7:56pm

Depends where you live, I got an ebike but don't ride it in winter it's to damn cold and wet to move fast i prefer to use my traditional bike I keep my body heat better and can see where im going bit better at slower speeds amongst spray and fog, but summer time i like to have a flat out blast on a boiling day even cheat and use a pure electric no peddling.

Can't beat a small electric scooter for versatility it's perfect city commuter I used one rural still done trick just have to not ride like a bellend and I treat every car like a teenage elephant it's crazy and wants to kill me I've always felt un easy on the road how some just cut across lanes on bikes and cut cars up driving down the centre not a care beats me these are the people living on borrowed time I'm at risk with caution for ffs.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Aquakitty » Sep 13 2019 11:41pm

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 13 2019 2:24pm
Cephalotus wrote:
Sep 13 2019 2:52am

I think all cyclist should automatically be covered by a special insurance funded through carbon tax, and the legislation should allow for motors up to 1000W (in relation to the weight of the vehicle) and 35km/h, which is the speed most cyclist reach in the city anyway. The stronger motors are required for cargo (children!) and moutaineous aeras. Only than can we really start to get rid of cars. Right now, people just buy a car and an ebike.
I just don't understand the 250w limit in Europe, cycling capital. Is there elitism going on, or is Bosch paying off politicians or something? :lol:
Usually Europe is ahead on these things, but these limits I don't understand.
Can't beat a small electric scooter for versatility it's perfect city commuter I used one rural still done trick just have to not ride like a bellend and I treat every car like a teenage elephant it's crazy and wants to kill me I've always felt un easy on the road how some just cut across lanes on bikes and cut cars up driving down the centre not a care beats me these are the people living on borrowed time I'm at risk with caution for ffs.
Unfortunately for you, fear makes you more likely to get hurt cycling on roads. It's the confident people that are less likely to have issues (there are actual studies on this). If you are that uncomfortable, take a vehicular cycling course.
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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Ianhill » Sep 14 2019 9:35am

Aquakitty wrote:
Sep 13 2019 11:41pm
qwerkus wrote:
Sep 13 2019 2:24pm
Cephalotus wrote:
Sep 13 2019 2:52am

I think all cyclist should automatically be covered by a special insurance funded through carbon tax, and the legislation should allow for motors up to 1000W (in relation to the weight of the vehicle) and 35km/h, which is the speed most cyclist reach in the city anyway. The stronger motors are required for cargo (children!) and moutaineous aeras. Only than can we really start to get rid of cars. Right now, people just buy a car and an ebike.
I just don't understand the 250w limit in Europe, cycling capital. Is there elitism going on, or is Bosch paying off politicians or something? :lol:
Usually Europe is ahead on these things, but these limits I don't understand.
Can't beat a small electric scooter for versatility it's perfect city commuter I used one rural still done trick just have to not ride like a bellend and I treat every car like a teenage elephant it's crazy and wants to kill me I've always felt un easy on the road how some just cut across lanes on bikes and cut cars up driving down the centre not a care beats me these are the people living on borrowed time I'm at risk with caution for ffs.
Unfortunately for you, fear makes you more likely to get hurt cycling on roads. It's the confident people that are less likely to have issues (there are actual studies on this). If you are that uncomfortable, take a vehicular cycling course.
I'll be honest that is horse crap having a healthy respect for safety does not put me at risk that's idiot talk. I've covered hundred of thousands of miles and know all to well as I've seen the faces of death and literally just covered a bike ride where someone cut across a tram way and lost both they legs so don't spout shit.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by wturber » Sep 14 2019 11:31am

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 13 2019 2:24pm
I think all cyclist should automatically be covered by a special insurance funded through carbon tax, and the legislation should allow for motors up to 1000W (in relation to the weight of the vehicle) and 35km/h, which is the speed most cyclist reach in the city anyway. The stronger motors are required for cargo (children!) and moutaineous aeras. Only than can we really start to get rid of cars. Right now, people just buy a car and an ebike.
I agree with the higher wattage. In fact I'd be even more liberal than 1000w and rely on speed limits instead.
But the notion that we are going to get rid of cars any time in the near future is ridiculous. We might get rid or cars driven by humans and replace the majority with self-driving cars. We might seriously reduce car ownership with people moving to automated Uber or Uber-like services. But cars will dominate city transportation until long after my death. And to the extent that I might be wrong, the one thing I'm even more sure of ist is that e-bikes will not be a big factor in replacing cars. E-bikes are a niche and will remain one in the vast majority of cities. Its a niche that I like, but a niche nonetheless.
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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by parajared » Sep 14 2019 11:35am

I'll be honest that is horse crap having a healthy respect for safety does not put me at risk that's idiot talk. I've covered hundred of thousands of miles and know all to well as I've seen the faces of death and literally just covered a bike ride where someone cut across a tram way and lost both they legs so don't spout shit.
In paragliding there is a definite "bell curve" of PG injuries. The beginners generally tend to be very cautious and the experts know the sport well enough not to get hurt. This tendency is known as "intermediate syndrome".

While I know intermediate syndrome as particular to air sports, I don't think it unreasonable that cyclists can get intermediate syndrome too.
Last edited by parajared on Sep 14 2019 11:43am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by wturber » Sep 14 2019 11:40am

Aquakitty wrote:
Sep 13 2019 11:41pm

Unfortunately for you, fear makes you more likely to get hurt cycling on roads. It's the confident people that are less likely to have issues (there are actual studies on this). If you are that uncomfortable, take a vehicular cycling course.
I'd love to see a couple of those studies to see how those studies are done and how big of a factor this is.

I routinely ride where there are sidewalks and bike lanes. I see many locals cruising along on the sidewalks at 8-10 mph or so. I, on the other hand, am zipping along in bike lanes at 20-30 mph riding without fear but also riding alert to what drivers might actually do. If I'm alert, I can probably account for and largely negate all dangers but one. And that is the driver who might hit me from behind. No amount of confidence seems likely to change that possibility. So that makes me wonder who is safer. The local cruising at 8-10 mph who isn't confident enough to even use a bike lane, or me?
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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by qwerkus » Sep 14 2019 11:44am

wturber wrote:
Sep 14 2019 11:31am
But the notion that we are going to get rid of cars any time in the near future is ridiculous. We might get rid or cars driven by humans and replace the majority with self-driving cars. We might seriously reduce car ownership with people moving to automated Uber or Uber-like services. But cars will dominate city transportation until long after my death. And to the extent that I might be wrong, the one thing I'm even more sure of ist is that e-bikes will not be a big factor in replacing cars. E-bikes are a niche and will remain one in the vast majority of cities. Its a niche that I like, but a niche nonetheless.
Super american answer. I respect your opinion, but can't agree with it. While I don't think we will get rid of all cars - in certain cases like remote locations they are unavoidable - we can easily divide their numbers by 100 or more. Here in Europe you already have entire neighborhoods banning private cars (delivery service are still authorized), and nearly all major municipalities are actively working in that direction. The sneaky way to do it is reducing the amount of parking lots, though it can only work if done properly: with a good bicycle infrastructure combined with a reliable mass transit system, there is really no need for a car. In fact, many already did the transition, and like myself never owned a car.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by wturber » Sep 14 2019 11:52am

parajared wrote:
Sep 14 2019 11:35am

While I know intermediate syndrome as particular to air sports, I don't think it unreasonable that cyclists can get intermediate syndrome too.
I agree. That seems likely. Confidence, knowledge and appropriate caution are keys to being safer IMO.

The intermediate group has the confidence but probably is lacking in the knowledge (experience) and their confidence in their above average knowledge and insight probably invites them to use less than appropriate caution at times. The beginners have less knowledge and therefore less confidence. But that lack of confidence causes them to try to reduce all exposure and/or to ride less. This is, of course, just my seat-of-the-pants narrative. But it does seem plausible.

Another wild-card in the bike safety equation is youthful, male indestructibility. Or rather the illusion of it. Super confidences. And often super stupidity.
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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by wturber » Sep 14 2019 12:04pm

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 14 2019 11:44am

Super american answer. I respect your opinion, but can't agree with it. While I don't think we will get rid of all cars - in certain cases like remote locations they are unavoidable - we can easily divide their numbers by 100 or more. Here in Europe you already have entire neighborhoods banning private cars (delivery service are still authorized), and nearly all major municipalities are actively working in that direction. The sneaky way to do it is reducing the amount of parking lots, though it can only work if done properly: with a good bicycle infrastructure combined with a reliable mass transit system, there is really no need for a car. In fact, many already did the transition, and like myself never owned a car.
Car ownership in New York City is low also. You can always find exceptions, especially in areas with high population densities.
Even with the advent of Uber and Lyft and a younger population that is less enamored of the car, car ownership overall is actually increasing in the U.S.. Worldwide the number of cars produces has been steadily increasing, not decreasing. It is all well and good that a neighborhood here or there decides to ban cars or that every now and then someone ditches or decides to never own a car, but such things will be less than a drop in the bucket compared to what citizens of China and India do as they gain wealth. This is not an American view. This is me looking at the world as a whole and trying to avoid my narrow bike enthusiast view.

And keep in mind as you look at these numbers that cars are generally better made now than before and that they last longer.
https://www.worldometers.info/cars/

BTW, don't tell me you respect my opinion while also describing it as "Super American." You, of course, are free to disrespect my opinion as much as you like. But as they say, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining."
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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by parajared » Sep 14 2019 12:10pm

Super american answer. I respect your opinion, but can't agree with it.
In regards to America vs Europe it should be mentioned that American infrastructure is built up around highways and European infrastructure is built in regards to horse/foot travel only to later adapt motorized use.

Americans can and do hop in their car and drive 3000 kilometers to see their friends and family, Europeans usually have their "social sphere" within 400km or so.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by RunForTheHills » Sep 14 2019 12:17pm

While bad accidents can occur on a wide open highway with a bike lane, I think the biggest risk to cyclists is at intersections and driveways. At least that is where I have been hit by cars or have had to take evasive actions.

I agree with wturber that cars aren't going away soon particularly in the United States. Here in California, suburbs, shopping centers, and work centers are spread too far apart to allow for convenient commuting by bicycle in a lot of locations and homes closer to cities can be prohibitively expensive. People will buy a home 50 miles out from where they work because they can afford it and commute in to their jobs. Phoenix is even more spread out.

There are also cultural barriers. People are lazy and used the convenience of hopping in their car to drive to the 7-11 on the corner. Many people wouldn't even consider getting on a bike in inclement weather or putting on a helmet and messing their hair up on the way to work.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by qwerkus » Sep 14 2019 1:08pm

parajared wrote:
Sep 14 2019 12:10pm
Super american answer. I respect your opinion, but can't agree with it.
In regards to America vs Europe it should be mentioned that American infrastructure is built up around highways and European infrastructure is built in regards to horse/foot travel only to later adapt motorized use.

Americans can and do hop in their car and drive 3000 kilometers to see their friends and family, Europeans usually have their "social sphere" within 400km or so.
While still true in most regions, that changed quite a bit during the last decades. Economics and Student programs kind of reshuffled populations in Europe. Oviously not everyone moved, but around 20% did. Now I have relatives more than 800km away, and they travel by train most of the time. Not by conviction though, but because many times its just cheaper.
Never been to the US for comparison, so can't say for myself. I was always wondering though why the US never built a high speed train system ? Maybe it's getting to OT, sorry for that.
wturber wrote:
Sep 14 2019 12:04pm
BTW, don't tell me you respect my opinion while also describing it as "Super American." You, of course, are free to disrespect my opinion as much as you like. But as they say, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining."
Sorry if I offended you - wasn't my goal. Though the numbers are in your favor, I'm getting tired of the line "there will always be cars" I keep hearing. People here use it as an excuse to justify inaction, which is obviously not your case.

More to the topic:
Aquakitty wrote:
Sep 13 2019 11:41pm
I just don't understand the 250w limit in Europe, cycling capital. Is there elitism going on, or is Bosch paying off politicians or something? :lol:
Usually Europe is ahead on these things, but these limits I don't understand.
I think it's a teamup between bosch and insurance companies. By setting the limit very low, they where counting on forcing everyone to buy insurance for the faster ebike category. Where bosch is heavily lobbying, is to have their motors pass certification. I repeat it again and again: there is no way bosch active line or cx line are 250W-continuous limited. Not talking about the 25km/h speed limit, which is implemented, but motor power output. I monitor my bbs closely, and keep seeing cyclist heavier than me fly by on supposedly legal ebikes, while I'm pushing 500W. So unless those drives are 150% efficient, there will be an "ebike gate" after the "diesel gate" at some point. When that happens, the legislation will have to change, and hub motors will shine!

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by donn » Sep 14 2019 3:13pm

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 14 2019 1:08pm
Where bosch is heavily lobbying, is to have their motors pass certification. I repeat it again and again: there is no way bosch active line or cx line are 250W-continuous limited. Not talking about the 25km/h speed limit, which is implemented, but motor power output. I monitor my bbs closely, and keep seeing cyclist heavier than me fly by on supposedly legal ebikes, while I'm pushing 500W. So unless those drives are 150% efficient, there will be an "ebike gate" after the "diesel gate" at some point. When that happens, the legislation will have to change, and hub motors will shine!
Is it clear that this means the supposedly legal ebikes are really illegal, or could it mean that you and they both can legally run 500W on a system officially rated at 250W? Do you know how these ratings are assigned? It's just taking the manufacturer's word for it, isn't it? because you'd have to anyway, unless you're going to make the lab test on a randomly purchased bicycle.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Ianhill » Sep 14 2019 5:21pm

Ebike gate LMAO, chimps strapped to ebikes with weights on they backs and made to pedal up steep inclines while breathing diesel exhaust ?

250watts couldn't pull a cup of piss up a kurb stone at decent pace anyone with weight will need more to tackle inclines and the system is setup to match a person's input it's as fool proof as it needs to be.

I see that driving cautious and safe to some means grannying about 8-10mph when that's far from the truth if I can't match the pace or close to i get the hell out the way, in my area I need not touch the road other than a small stretch and I always at speed if the conditions are poor then I stay off it I like how my comment was cut to remove all the reasons why I see it as unsafe on occasions such as fog, rain while amongst peak traffic.

I guess been a road user on both sides of the coin I see cars dint give a toss for you there's lot of poor driving to be seen here in UK and I don't trust no one that's my ethos if I'm alive but an intermediate in your eyes so be it I know my place on the road out of everyone else's way.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Cephalotus » Sep 15 2019 5:30am

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 13 2019 2:24pm

Not sure if this is getting too OT, but S-Pedelec is not really an interesting category in Europe. Sure you can ride a little faster, but since it's considered a lightweight motor vehicle it basically means you cannot use any of the bicycle advantages, ie. bike lanes. You are stuck with the stench of cars on the street many times heavier than you for a marginal gain in speed.
I do onw thre s-Pedelec and drive them since 2014 in a city of 500,000 persons. I did make a 1,400km tour through Switzerland and France with them just a few weeks ago.
I always mount my insurance plant (except transporting them via train) and I ride wherever I want and never, not vene once, did I encounter a problem.

So as an european you can whine about the pedelec law, you can ride you own e-motorcycle withount insurance (which can ruin your entire life if an accidant happens) or you can ride a Speed Pedelec.

for my the option works very well. (If an accident happens with your speed pedelec insurance will ALWAYS pay, no matter what you did except you wanted to hurt/kill someone intentionally. Worst case is that you need to pay 5,000€ out of your own pocket)
If police forces you from the bike line (never ever happend to me) you would have to pay 10€ over here.
If they catch you with your own e-motorcycle without insurance you end up in front of a judge and usually you will pay something around 30 days of your salary for that crime(sic!) riding a motorvehicle without insurance in public traffic.

Theoretically you could en up in prison for up to two years, but I assume that's for the rather the heavy cases like driving a truck full of radiactive waste without insurance or something like that.
I think all cyclist should automatically be covered by a special insurance funded through carbon tax, and the legislation should allow for motors up to 1000W (in relation to the weight of the vehicle) and 35km/h, which is the speed most cyclist reach in the city anyway. The stronger motors are required for cargo (children!) and moutaineous aeras. Only than can we really start to get rid of cars. Right now, people just buy a car and an ebike.
I have no problems to pay for my insurnace which is something around 35€ per year for a speed Pedelec. i do not exepct others to pay for my vehicle.
My Speed Pedelec have already perfectly legal 48V 30A controllers, despite the 250W label on those BionX motors, so the "1000W" have been there for many years. I they are easily enough.
45km/h limit is better than 35km/h. Mst time I do ride around 30-40km/h in the city, but from time to time I do ride 45km/h, too.

I tried 50km/h+, but for me there is little benefit vs huge problems (safety at least on my kind of s-Pedelec, cars still passing buy, significantly increased power consumption and oof course lack of insurance).

so instead of complaining what should be, I use the options that are available and this works very well.

Yes, I aslo hope that someday it will be just leagl to ride on bike lanes with a sPedelec, if it is the better option. Until than I just do it and I'm willing to pay that 10€ if the police should ever force it on me. Didn't happen once during the last 5 years.

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Cephalotus » Sep 15 2019 5:38am

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 14 2019 1:08pm
Where bosch is heavily lobbying, is to have their motors pass certification. I repeat it again and again: there is no way bosch active line or cx line are 250W-continuous limited. Not talking about the 25km/h speed limit, which is implemented, but motor power output. I monitor my bbs closely, and keep seeing cyclist heavier than me fly by on supposedly legal ebikes, while I'm pushing 500W. So unless those drives are 150% efficient, there will be an "ebike gate" after the "diesel gate" at some point. When that happens, the legislation will have to change, and hub motors will shine!
Bosch CX output is somewhere around 600-700W continuously.

The new Sachs RS mid drive will also deliver 700W+ and 110Nm
To get that 250W EU label it seems to be okay, if the power level of the motor drops for 1s below 250W during every 30 min period. Usually this will happen naturally.

The 250W limit in the EU is more or less a fantasy limit. BionX motors have 250W labels using 48V 30A controllers inside.

The 25km/h limit on the other hand is real (maybe 27km/h)

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by qwerkus » Sep 15 2019 7:00am

Cephalotus wrote:
Sep 15 2019 5:30am
I do onw thre s-Pedelec and drive them since 2014 in a city of 500,000 persons.
Obviously money is not an issue for you...

Insurance is only part of the story. To ride an s-pedelec, you need a simplified driving license in most countries = extra costs. And more importantly: you need a bike with legal homologation, otherwise no insurance will cover it. That basically excludes all diy ebikes, unless you are prepared to pay for the whole process of approval, in which case you'd better go commercial. And those bikes are super expensive.

Can you see how the system works: either you're stuck with an artificially slow bike, or you have to spend more money than for a 2 hand car, and I'm not even mentioning all cases where there is simply no suitable product on the market for your need.
I'm glad you can afford to be happy with how things work. Doesn't mean everyone is in the same situation.

I do think that given the increase in cycling injuries due to ebikes, insurance is actually a good thing. I just don't see why people trying do something to reduce co2 output from transportation would have to bare extra costs for it. Hence the idea of a mandatory insurance for all cyclist funded through co2 tax. Maybe you'd have to pay for a 1 time registration, to show you are the bike owner, and that's it.
Power levels should be flexible, and as other pointed it here: speed limit is an effective method to reduce risks, and can be easily implemented.

Grantmac   10 kW

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Grantmac » Sep 15 2019 10:59am

If I could legally insure my bike to 45km/h and still ride it on our excellent bicycling infrastructure I'd definitely do it, I'd pay about $100/year without complaint.
I'd even be into a 32km/h speed limit on that infrastructure (this is our ebike limit along with 500w).

The problem is that here 501w is a scooter which then needs insurance of $300/yr and can only ride on the road, plus we don't allow motorcycles or scooters to pass stop and go traffic on the right.
I've given up commuting on my motorcycle because it's miserable in those conditions.
If we allowed motorcycles to overtake stopped traffic on the right I'd probably ride a Zero.

As it is 500w is just not enough to move safely in and around traffic on the rare events I need to.

Cephalotus   10 kW

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Cephalotus » Sep 15 2019 11:38am

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 15 2019 7:00am

Obviously money is not an issue for you...
I payed less than 4000€ for all (3) of them.

Here is a picture of all 4 (incl. one for my girlfriend):
Diamant_Surpreme_alle.jpg
Diamant_Surpreme_alle.jpg (203.46 KiB) Viewed 211 times
I changed the drive system and some components, so overall the price has been higher, but still significantly below 10.000€ for all 4 of them. I plan to use them for 20 years. The limit is the lifetime of the BionX motors. I have bought lots of spare BionX parts for that reason.
Insurance is only part of the story. To ride an s-pedelec, you need a simplified driving license in most countries = extra costs.
The driving license for a car is good enough. I did already have one, so no extra cost
And more importantly: you need a bike with legal homologation, otherwise no insurance will cover it. That basically excludes all diy ebikes, unless you are prepared to pay for the whole process of approval, in which case you'd better go commercial. And those bikes are super expensive.
I bought those old speed Pedelec, because they use 250W BionX motors and are technically compatible with my other bikes and because their certificate of conformation is almost empty. I have that 250W information, a motor type number, the tire size and size and weight of the vehicle. That's it. I can not change the frame, about the rest nobody cares.

For the BionX D drive in my first speed Pedelec I went to the Dekra (TÜV) and got an "Einzelzulassung".
Einzelzulassung-D-Motor3.jpg
Einzelzulassung-D-Motor3.jpg (177.17 KiB) Viewed 211 times
Not easy but also not expensive. Now having nobody at BionX and nobody left at the manufacturer (they switch to Bosch drives 6 years ago) its difficult, but nothing really bad can happen. Insurance still is intact.
Can you see how the system works: either you're stuck with an artificially slow bike, or you have to spend more money than for a 2 hand car, and I'm not even mentioning all cases where there is simply no suitable product on the market for your need.
I'm glad you can afford to be happy with how things work. Doesn't mean everyone is in the same situation.
In the German Pedelecforum there is an used E45 for offer at 700 Euro for example. This gives you a speed Pedelec with 500W GoSwiss Drive motor and a battery system wher you can add your won 36V battery if you like.

Btw, I also built us a 1080Wh and 1320Wh battery for our BionX Speed Pedelecs. You are "free" which batteries you use " in those old sPed (just the voltage of either 41V or 48V, 11s or 13s is documented, but not in the CoC) so I fail to understand why sPed are not for DIY. It's a bit more complicated, but not so impossible as people tell you...
13s8p_PF_005.jpg
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The proble is people simply don't know about the possibilities and the new sPed that are registerd as L1e-B have become much more restrictive than my old ones (another reason why I bought 4 of them). I don't even need t wear a helmet on my old L1e-A speed pedelec.

I do think that given the increase in cycling injuries due to ebikes, insurance is actually a good thing. I just don't see why people trying do something to reduce co2 output from transportation would have to bare extra costs for it.
So if I put solar panels on my roof they should be for free. My holiday by bike should be for free because I did not travel by plane? If I eat vegetarian stuff instead of meat it should be free because I emit less CO2.

Imho this is nonsense. If you want to promote climate friendlier living give CO2 its price and that's it. I see no reason why people should not pay for an electric bicycle (btw, the CO2 emission for an ebike are higher than for a regular bike, at least for overweight people that do it to much anyway)
Hence the idea of a mandatory insurance for all cyclist funded through co2 tax. Maybe you'd have to pay for a 1 time registration, to show you are the bike owner, and that's it.
Power levels should be flexible, and as other pointed it here: speed limit is an effective method to reduce risks, and can be easily implemented.
You can ask for many things. Maybe they will happen someday, maybe not.

Myself on the other hand did analyze what is possible today and I acted.

That#s the reason why I drive electric bikes at 45km/h in the EU and why others are whining and dreaming about riding faster than 25km/h. (or tuning their bikes and drive them without insurance which is a VERY bad thing if anything happens)

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by MadRhino » Sep 15 2019 1:27pm

Only politicians can call ‘speed’ a 500w bike. When laws are stupid, riders don’t need to be. In most places anyway, the police does apply the traffic rules and don’t care about the power of a bike.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

Cephalotus   10 kW

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Re: Hub motor industry dying?

Post by Cephalotus » Sep 15 2019 2:13pm

MadRhino wrote:
Sep 15 2019 1:27pm
Only politicians can call ‘speed’ a 500w bike. When laws are stupid, riders don’t need to be. In most places anyway, the police does apply the traffic rules and don’t care about the power of a bike.
My "250W" speed Pedelec are good enough for 50km/h+ if they are unlimited. I limit them to 45km/h which is enough speed for me.

Most time I ride them around 330-40km/h in the city.

Over here there is no need to "keep up with the cars". cars are faster than your ebike, no matter what you do. My bikes accelerate enough to be the first after the light turns green which is good and a safety benefit, otherwise cars will pass you and it does not matter a bit if you ride 30km/h, 40km/h or 50km/h.
But for me this is no problem at all. When I ride a bike without motor assist cars will pass me, too.

If there are problems with that it's a problem of infrastructure or cars passing with not enough space, but it is NOT a problem of not enough bike speed or not enough bike power.

Above 45km/h you are in the motorcycle category and I think this is perfectly okay. 50km/h+ is not something those bikes are made for. Yes, race bikes sometimes go 80km/h downhill, but this is no reason why you should drive an bicycle with an e-motor at 80km/h.

Police will not stop you if you don't make it to extreme, but you never know. They get more sensible to that topic of illegal ebikes now, because it is estimated that there are several hundred thousands of them in Germany which have removed that 25km/h limiter.

Problem is if an accident happens because there is no insurance. So if you hurt someone badly costs can go into 100.000nds of Euro, even above 1 million.
You have to pay that out of your own pocket. This is very bad either for you and for those person you did hurt.

I assume the concept of insurance is seen different in EU and US, it's more a cultural thing. People here expect that life threatening things are insured, no matter if health related or accident related.

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