Help me develop the perfect throttle

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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DasDouble   100 kW

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Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 08 2019 4:02am

My current job right now from my boss is to develop the perfect eBike throttle (120mm wide, full wrist). Do you have any small or big wishes you always wanted to have in a 5V eBike throttle? Like a super-smooth spring-momentum or something similar?

Cheers, Elias
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MJSfoto1956   10 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Aug 08 2019 6:58am

You might want to study what these guys are doing:

https://www.motionpro.com/c/rev2-throttle
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DasDouble   100 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 08 2019 7:58am

MJSfoto1956 wrote:
Aug 08 2019 6:58am
You might want to study what these guys are doing:

https://www.motionpro.com/c/rev2-throttle
Thanks, but all they are doing is installing a variabel range for the throttle which is already possible via Kelly Controler and much more + the linearity of its response
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-Built own ebike: ✔
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-Overtake Porsche with own Ebike: ✔
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~14kW, 3.2kWh LiIon, QS 205 8ml ff, hubsink

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E-HP   100 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by E-HP » Aug 08 2019 9:05am

DasDouble wrote:
Aug 08 2019 7:58am

Thanks, but all they are doing is installing a variabel range for the throttle which is already possible via Kelly Controler and much more + the linearity of its response
What's your list look like so far?

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cycborg   1 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by cycborg » Aug 08 2019 9:13am

Bi-directional for regen

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by pwd » Aug 08 2019 9:21am

adjustable min and max positions
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NCC1941   10 W

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by NCC1941 » Aug 08 2019 10:22am

cycborg wrote:
Aug 08 2019 9:13am
Bi-directional for regen
I'll enthusiastically second this.
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MJSfoto1956   10 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Aug 08 2019 10:30am

DasDouble wrote:
Aug 08 2019 7:58am
Thanks, but all they are doing is installing a variabel range for the throttle which is already possible via Kelly Controler and much more + the linearity of its response
I think that misses one key point: the "feel" of this type of throttle.
Mapping things in software only gets you so far in that regard.

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john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 08 2019 11:22am

Ability to "click" for slow & precise adjustment while cruising?

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 08 2019 12:45pm

john61ct wrote:
Aug 08 2019 11:22am
Ability to "click" for slow & precise adjustment while cruising?
Interesting, I believe I'd go for that.

AHicks   1 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by AHicks » Aug 08 2019 1:26pm

Make sure it's possible to control the strength of the click, or disable completely. Otherwise there are going to be occasions where it's impossible to attain the speed you're after. E.G. when riding with somebody else, when following slower traffic, etc.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Grantmac » Aug 08 2019 1:47pm

cycborg wrote:
Aug 08 2019 9:13am
Bi-directional for regen
This, plus durable and stealthy.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 08 2019 3:10pm


AHicks wrote:Make sure it's possible to control the strength of the click, or disable completely. Otherwise there are going to be occasions where it's impossible to attain the speed you're after. E.G. when riding with somebody else, when following slower traffic, etc.
No idea about that, my conception is, lets say from 0 to WOT 100% there are 50 gradients. They don't need to be equal, probably want finer controls between 30% and 80% than top and bottom.

The "clicking" feedback should not make the throttling any slower than if it were continuous greyscale.

But the "intensity" or even disabling of the feature is a "would be nice" 8-D

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Drunkskunk » Aug 08 2019 4:15pm

NCC1941 wrote:
Aug 08 2019 10:22am
cycborg wrote:
Aug 08 2019 9:13am
Bi-directional for regen
I'll enthusiastically second this.
An enthusiastically third from me. it would need to have a shorter range of travel, though, so you can modulate it while braking at the same time. 90 degree maybe?
john61ct wrote:
Aug 08 2019 11:22am
Ability to "click" for slow & precise adjustment while cruising?
As long as this could be turned off, I see a good use for an indexing throttle, but it would drive me insane if I wasn't trying to set cruise. Throttles should be silky smooth.


I'd want a half grip option. I manhandle bicycles too much off road, and I want to be able to apply arm torque directly to the bar without twisting the throttle.
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by flat tire » Aug 08 2019 4:39pm

Don't make it bidirectional, don't make it adjustable. You could put in a click at the end for safety or regen like domino but that's not important to me. Make it full length, all metal, well built, really smooth. Probably also best to not use a pot since they wear out.

Variable regen is best done elsewhere with another control.

I would pay at least like $250 if you make a throttle that is obviously better than domino.

AHicks   1 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by AHicks » Aug 08 2019 7:55pm

I prefer thumb throttles, but I really like the idea of variable regen. Maybe have a throttle on the right, and regen on the left?

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Bigwheel » Aug 08 2019 8:06pm

Might work for riding on the street but I don't ever see a hand grip type throttle ever being useful for off-road. A thumb throttle works because it is out of the way and using a grip shifter with a half grip and detents does seem to work fine for me at least as it only will move when I want it to. My drop bar road bikes use a thumb throttle and I don't see any way of course to use a full grip throttle for those type of bars. But good luck with your project.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by amberwolf » Aug 08 2019 8:25pm

All metal construction for durability. No plastic crap.

Design to have grip portion removable, leaving the mounting ring for the grip exposed, so one can turn it into a thumb (or half grip) throttle if desired. (since it's unlikely they'd go for making those versions, and they'd sell more of them if people can use them for other than full-grip without using a hacksaw). Easy to justify because grips can become damaged in laydowns/etc. and being able to replace just that part or at least take it off easily to rework or re-cover it would be very useful.

Waterproof. Pot the insides to seal them.

Adjustable "range", to adjust the feel of the throttle for the particular application. This can be done with a couple of tiny trimpots for the top and bottom range, simply wired in series with the 5v and ground lines to the sensor (or pot) inside. A couple of rubber caps (like the Meanwell HLG series uses) can fill the access holes to these for weatherproofing.


Vectrix-like regen capability, so you reverse twist from the "off" position to brake. This will have a completely separate sensor and output, with it's own trimpots to adjust it's range/feel.



Note that it is necessary to have the trimpots, as not all controllers have ability to adjust their input ranges, and certain situations, especially mounting positions, may require a different feel or movement range. WOuld also make it usable by someone with limited wrist/etc motoin range, where a regular unadjustable throttle would not be.


There's a bunch of threads in this list
search.php?keywords=throttle&terms=all& ... mit=Search
that discuss problems with various throttles, and solutions, that will help you, but you'll have to look thru them to find the information.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 08 2019 8:39pm

Search URL failed for me

googly version

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... F+throttle

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 08 2019 8:46pm

I'm happy with a thumb throttle, but started with a half grip. Also used to ride a motorcycle, nice old '80s clunker with dell'Orto carburetors. The throttle on that old motorcycle was way better than the ebike throttle. I didn't do any real comparisons, and the motorcycle is gone, but you go out and try it yourself. I think just about any motorcycle would do, but I'd try for an old one, with carburetors and a tall first gear.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by amberwolf » Aug 08 2019 9:01pm

john61ct wrote:
Aug 08 2019 8:39pm
Search URL failed for me
Dunno why, unless there's something blocked on your system? Or if you are copy/pasting the visible portion instead of clicking it?

URL (not all of it always shows in a post due to PHPBB parsing) is:

Code: Select all

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=throttle&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
it should come up with:
Search found 1093 matches: throttle

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by amberwolf » Aug 08 2019 9:03pm

donn wrote:
Aug 08 2019 8:46pm
The throttle on that old motorcycle was way better than the ebike throttle.
Primarily that's because most ebike systems use a speed (PWM) throttle, not a current (torque) throttle, which is more or less what you get on an ICE. So the response is very different, especially as you get into higher power bikes.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 08 2019 9:19pm


amberwolf wrote: Dunno why

it should come up with:
Search found 1093 matches: throttle
might be Tapatalk

response is
Screenshot_20190808-221800.jpg
Screenshot_20190808-221800.jpg (64.35 KiB) Viewed 2020 times

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 08 2019 9:36pm

amberwolf wrote:
Aug 08 2019 9:03pm
Primarily that's because most ebike systems use a speed (PWM) throttle, not a current (torque) throttle, which is more or less what you get on an ICE. So the response is very different, especially as you get into higher power bikes.
Could be. Sure a lot smoother up front, I mean heaven help me if I'd had to coordinate that ebike initial surge-on with a clutch, but it also seemed like I had to rotate the ebike throttle an awful far way for a middling speed output.

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DasDouble   100 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 09 2019 1:34am

donn wrote:
Aug 08 2019 9:36pm
amberwolf wrote:
Aug 08 2019 9:03pm
Primarily that's because most ebike systems use a speed (PWM) throttle, not a current (torque) throttle, which is more or less what you get on an ICE. So the response is very different, especially as you get into higher power bikes.
Could be. Sure a lot smoother up front, I mean heaven help me if I'd had to coordinate that ebike initial surge-on with a clutch, but it also seemed like I had to rotate the ebike throttle an awful far way for a middling speed output.
As far as I understood it on the german videos about it, it says "45km/h" which makes it a 50ccm scooter-like vehicle with a small number plate =>> legal, not illegal
Last edited by DasDouble on Aug 09 2019 4:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mechatronics-Engineering Student
-Built own ebike: ✔
-Built own 3.2kWh LiIon battery (300Amps): ✔
-Overtake Porsche with own Ebike: ✔
-Take off with ebike: ✖

~14kW, 3.2kWh LiIon, QS 205 8ml ff, hubsink

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