Help me develop the perfect throttle

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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DasDouble   100 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 09 2019 6:56am

john61ct wrote:
Aug 08 2019 11:22am
Ability to "click" for slow & precise adjustment while cruising?
Please explain further. Like you "click" a button and by that its in cruising mode and another "click" and your in fast-moder or what?
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 09 2019 6:57am

Grantmac wrote:
Aug 08 2019 1:47pm
cycborg wrote:
Aug 08 2019 9:13am
Bi-directional for regen
This, plus durable and stealthy.
of course
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 09 2019 7:00am

john61ct wrote:
Aug 08 2019 3:10pm
AHicks wrote:Make sure it's possible to control the strength of the click, or disable completely. Otherwise there are going to be occasions where it's impossible to attain the speed you're after. E.G. when riding with somebody else, when following slower traffic, etc.
No idea about that, my conception is, lets say from 0 to WOT 100% there are 50 gradients. They don't need to be equal, probably want finer controls between 30% and 80% than top and bottom.

The "clicking" feedback should not make the throttling any slower than if it were continuous greyscale.

But the "intensity" or even disabling of the feature is a "would be nice" 8-D
Can´t you already control this on your controller? This would need a lot of effort + more expensive electric components as you would need to control it in-throttle with all its disadvantages
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 09 2019 7:08am

Drunkskunk wrote:
Aug 08 2019 4:15pm
Throttles should be silky smooth.
It will be silky smooth, trust me. For the resistance of it I need to know your wished spring momentum in newton meters, maybe you have one in your mind? The Domino has between 0.07 - 0.09 newton meter. Do you want it to be lighter or heavier? My concern is in case to be more light-movable that off-road-actions could end up in uncontrolled movements of the throttle -> chaos. What do you think?
Drunkskunk wrote:
Aug 08 2019 4:15pm
I'd want a half grip option. I manhandle bicycles too much off road, and I want to be able to apply arm torque directly to the bar without twisting the throttle.
Will be available in version 2 as it doesn´t fit into the concept right now.
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donn   1 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 09 2019 8:52am

DasDouble wrote:
Aug 09 2019 6:56am
john61ct wrote:
Aug 08 2019 11:22am
Ability to "click" for slow & precise adjustment while cruising?
Please explain further. Like you "click" a button and by that its in cruising mode and another "click" and your in fast-moder or what?
I hope john61ct will give you his account of it, but for me, it's rather the opposite of "silky smooth". It's stops, along the travel of the control, that you can feel and hear. Enough that there's a little resistance at each stop, but of course not enough to lock the throttle, it would still return to zero when released. Or the stop resistance could be adjustable.

The point for me is partly for use with cruise control, where I need to hold the throttle at one setting for a few seconds. Which is usually easy, but it's a little distracting and unreliable. If it's clicking, at least I know whether I succeeded, and if the stops are physical enough it would be a little easier to hold steady.

It could be also related to the principle of the throttle, as amberwolf explained it. Because it isn't a current/torque control, motor response feels, in a way, less immediately connected to operation of the control, so "silky smooth" is kind of wasted here, and a tangible response from the throttle control itself is a surrogate for that, an immediate feedback of "yes, I sure am turning the throttle." That's only speculation, I'd have to experience it before I'd know for sure. The cruise control thing, I'm pretty sure about.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by John in CR » Aug 09 2019 9:56am

Waterproof
Durable (metal not plastic)
Tube only so can install own grips
Long turn (or adjustable turn length if possible)
Adjustable min and max voltage output (to tune to match controller)
Adjustable shape of throttle curve (or just make slope shallower for first 10-20% of response
Slightly stronger spring or adjustable resistance to turn.

One solution might be to make it a cable pull throttle with box with the adjustments like what Gwhy sold here on the forum but better. The ones I bought from him work pretty well, but no adjustments and springs not quite stiff enough to work perfectly with motorcycle cable pull throttles.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 09 2019 11:40am


DasDouble wrote:Please explain further. Like you "click" a button and by that its in cruising mode and another "click" and your in fast-moder or what?
No just meant a "clicky stops" feedback feature as above, to allow for fine increment adjustment.

If "silky smooth" is required then that feature must be implemented so it can be disabled completely, ideally on the fly. Or just goes away, dropped completely.

____
I really like this suggestion
amberwolf wrote:Design to have grip portion removable, leaving the mounting ring for the grip exposed, so one can turn it into a thumb (or half grip) throttle if desired. (since it's unlikely they'd go for making those versions, and they'd sell more of them if people can use them for other than full-grip without using a hacksaw). Easy to justify because grips can become damaged in laydowns/etc. and being able to replace just that part or at least take it off easily to rework or re-cover it would be very useful.
Perhaps rather than "tiny trimpots"


>> Adjustable "range", to adjust the feel of the throttle for the particular application. This can be done with a couple of tiny trimpots for the top and bottom range, simply wired in series with the 5v and ground lines to the sensor (or pot) inside. A couple of rubber caps (like the Meanwell HLG series uses) can fill the access holes to these for weatherproofing.

>> Note that it is necessary to have the trimpots, as not all controllers have ability to adjust their input ranges, and certain situations, especially mounting positions, may require a different feel or movement range. WOuld also make it usable by someone with limited wrist/etc motoin range, where a regular unadjustable throttle would not be.

Such adjustments could be made "live" while riding as per your top interpretation. A bit like changing gears conceptually, just changing the control algorithm of tge electronics, not mechanically.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by flat tire » Aug 09 2019 2:58pm

Drunkskunk wrote:
Aug 08 2019 4:15pm
I'd want a half grip option. I manhandle bicycles too much off road, and I want to be able to apply arm torque directly to the bar without twisting the throttle.
OMG. Full stop. You've got it TOTALLY BACKWARDS. You need a full grip throttle while riding hard. That way you can use your tiny fingers to hold onto the throttle while covering your brake. If you have a half grip you end up needing to rotate your hand around the part of the bar that doesn't move every time you want to use the throttle, and you also have to figure out how to squeeze it while your index finger covers the brake.

Obviously you don't ride ebikes hard or this would be overwhelmingly obvious to you. Throttle control. Learn it.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by 999zip999 » Aug 09 2019 4:53pm

Half grip is my favor as you hold on to a part of the handlebar and work the throttle with a finger or two. 30,000 ebike miles.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by flat tire » Aug 09 2019 4:55pm

30,000 miles doing it wrong. You don't ride hard.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Drunkskunk » Aug 09 2019 6:59pm

flat tire wrote:
Aug 09 2019 2:58pm
OMG. Full stop. You've got it TOTALLY BACKWARDS. You need a full grip throttle while riding hard. That way you can use your tiny fingers to hold onto the throttle while covering your brake. If you have a half grip you end up needing to rotate your hand around the part of the bar that doesn't move every time you want to use the throttle, and you also have to figure out how to squeeze it while your index finger covers the brake.

Obviously you don't ride ebikes hard or this would be overwhelmingly obvious to you. Throttle control. Learn it.
Nope. I've got it right. It sounds like a skill you just don't have an understanding of yet. It's throttle control. You should learn it.
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by flat tire » Aug 09 2019 7:19pm

That's the point. If you have throttle control it's not an issue to be holding on to the entire grip.

Whereas, if you do it your way, your small fingers constantly have to give up their grip on the fixed part of the bar when you use the throttle, which is constantly. That's dumb, and you also give up control to cover the brake.

With a full twist throttle none of these things are an issue and you can ride harder. There's a reason motorcycles use full twist throttles and they take a hell of a lot more physical effort to ride than your bicycle.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Drunkskunk » Aug 09 2019 8:33pm

I think you're the first person to accuse me of having tiny fingers. That's new. It's clear I and many many others have a skill you just don't understand.
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by wturber » Aug 09 2019 10:47pm

Must not interfere with typical handlebar click-shifters
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Mywpn » Aug 10 2019 6:46am

If you can work out how to make the domino throttle linear without the huge rush of power from 1-3mm of throttle and wide spread the power all the way to a sabvoton controller, your already a genius in my books☺️ Without A CA.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 10 2019 12:19pm

How about Stage 1, require a CA for power curve tweaking, allows you to just focus on the physical mechanical aspects.

Then Stage 2, bring in the CA-style throttle adjustability with a (maybe MCU-based) add-on accessory,

favorable pricing for your beta-testers early adopters of Stage 1, good bundle pricing for new customers, but still allow throttle-only sales for CA users and those who don't need the adjustability?

Of course always striving / tweaking versions for the "ideal" most popular curve in the base unit.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by smoko » Aug 11 2019 7:01am

Mywpn wrote:
Aug 10 2019 6:46am
If you can work out how to make the domino throttle linear without the huge rush of power from 1-3mm of throttle and wide spread the power all the way to a sabvoton controller, your already a genius in my books☺️ Without A CA.
I'm only learning, but if the throttle is just a pot, couldn't you use a log pot to stretch out the initial power response?

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by peters » Aug 11 2019 11:32am

Sliding grip? That would turn (slide around) after a reasonably high force to prevent breaking the internals of the throttle. I'm thinking of this since mine was broken.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 12 2019 8:53am

Thanks for all your feedback till now. Im on it.

PS: I have tried both: Half-grip and full-wrist. I like full-wrist more as you don´t need to loosen your fingers on the stabile part of the throttle to turn it around.
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Merlin » Aug 13 2019 6:23am

Mywpn wrote:
Aug 10 2019 6:46am
If you can work out how to make the domino throttle linear without the huge rush of power from 1-3mm of throttle and wide spread the power all the way to a sabvoton controller, your already a genius in my books☺️ Without A CA.
its not the throttle its your shitty sabvoton =)

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by espresso » Aug 13 2019 9:26am

A switch in the initial twist region to switch off the stupid Bafang PAS. For those who don't know, the new Bafang mid drives get confused if you pedal with PAS and use the throttle at the same time. A simple normally closed switch could be set up to disable the PAS as soon as a git of throttle is applied.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 14 2019 2:29am

espresso wrote:
Aug 13 2019 9:26am
A switch in the initial twist region to switch off the stupid Bafang PAS. For those who don't know, the new Bafang mid drives get confused if you pedal with PAS and use the throttle at the same time. A simple normally closed switch could be set up to disable the PAS as soon as a git of throttle is applied.
Ah I see so as soon as you push the throttle, switch gets closed, PAS gets disabled.
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 14 2019 10:35am

Would getting PAS turned back on best be manual, or maybe automatic, after X minutes of no throttle activity?

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 14 2019 10:54am

This sounds like controller functionality? Isn't the throttle's job just to send a signal representing current throttle position?

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by billvon » Aug 14 2019 11:44am

DasDouble wrote:
Aug 08 2019 4:02am
My current job right now from my boss is to develop the perfect eBike throttle (120mm wide, full wrist). Do you have any small or big wishes you always wanted to have in a 5V eBike throttle? Like a super-smooth spring-momentum or something similar?
Bidirectional for regen
Strong detent at zero power
Programmable log or linear response

No buttons or gadgets, just the throttle
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