Help me develop the perfect throttle

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 14 2019 12:23pm

Well the idea afaic would be easy access to such functionality while riding, rather than having to stop to make adjustments.

I agree that's getting away from traditional throttle functionality, but so is regen control, and the OP request is pretty open-ended, leading to anything-goes brainstorming, rather than restrictive rules.

In the end OP will make the actual judgment calls.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 14 2019 12:52pm

Not to propose restrictive rules, I'm just saying, the most useful framing will be in terms of what a handlebar control can provide. For example, would that mean two outputs - the normal throttle variable signal, plus a new on/off switch signal? From there, it would be someone else's problem what to do with that switch - relay to interrupt the PAS line? Would that be useful, for that purpose or any other? Beats me!

I assume regen control is a similar proposition: 2nd output that lights up on counter twist, and then it is again up to the controller to link that to regen. (Or reverse, which is occasionally wished for.)

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 14 2019 3:00pm

Crude precedent, but 1-2-3 power level switch is throttle functionality amirite?

Or more analogous to gears? dunno

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 14 2019 3:17pm

It makes sense to me to use a handy continuously variable control, i.e. throttle, for "assist level". And another throttle to simply replace pedal assist, to get going ... but I'm an unusual case, on a recumbent where I can't just stand on the pedals for a little something extra, in fact it can be a little tricky to even get to the pedals from a stop. Maybe ordinary bicycles can comfortably control the motor from the pedals only.

I also may have an unusual perspective on pedaling. Some people seem to feel that if they're handed a throttle, they'll abuse it and compromise their intention to pedal. They "want to" pedal, so they have to select a mechanism that will force them to pedal to use the motor. I obviously don't understand that, but I guess "want to" can mean a variety of things. Anyway, if it's really the way it seems, then providing a handy throttle control for assist level will surely do the same thing, seduce the sort-of-want-to-pedal faction into excessively high assist levels. They'll want a fixed assist level menu where they can set it at "1" and then under limited circumstances move it up after extensive and careful reasoning that leaves no room for weak impulses.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by markz » Aug 14 2019 5:54pm

Was thinking when I was e-riding today, a perfect throttle would be one that can log your throttle position over time.
Or, one that displays your voltage, but also the motor temperature, or even altitude, speed.
Be a great minimalistic approach to a display screen like the KT.
Perhaps even some intuitive ardruino programmist can one finger type the code up.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by waynebergman » Aug 14 2019 7:08pm

Hey Flat tire, I am with drunkskunk.I feel the MC full throttle works because you have clutch to nurse the madness.Half twist for me!
Regarding the little fingers, yes you want only one or two fingers of the big fingers on the brake lever but all the throttle contoll on a half twist is NOT done with the ends of your index braking finger at all it should be controled with the underside of the index finger knuckle but the knuckle that is closer to the wrist not the mid point knuckle. Not sure if this make sense but Drunky is right ........wayne

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 15 2019 8:13am

billvon wrote:
Aug 14 2019 11:44am
Strong detent at zero power
Not a great Idea, the breakaway moment could be too high. Bad for slow accelleration. Maybe a click sound would be a better sound instead.
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by billvon » Aug 15 2019 10:03am

DasDouble wrote:
Aug 15 2019 8:13am
Not a great Idea, the breakaway moment could be too high. Bad for slow accelleration. Maybe a click sound would be a better sound instead.
Gotta have a mechanical detent so that you are:

1) guaranteed rapid return to zero if the throttle is released
2) have a tactile means of knowing when you are at zero throttle (important with quiet drives)

I'm not talking about something that takes a lot of strength - just something that will keep the throttle there if there's no human input, and something that makes it clear, even on rough roads, that you are at zero.
--bill von

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 15 2019 10:21am

You might get what you need here with just an improved return spring. The way I understand a detent, either I'd have to positively push it into the detent position to turn the throttle off, or the spring would be strong enough to overcome the detent resistance - so there'd be no real need for the detent in that case.

The game could change on that, though, with the counter rotate function that I think some have been asking for, for variable regen. A good feel for the normal return is easy, because it can be under full tension all the way to the stop. With a counter rotate option, the stop is gone, and the spring(s?) have to just balance at 0 or something, so (seems to me) it's harder to get a good positive feel near 0.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Aug 15 2019 10:59am

donn wrote:
Aug 15 2019 10:21am
With a counter rotate option, the stop is gone, and the spring(s?) have to just balance at 0 or something, so (seems to me) it's harder to get a good positive feel near 0.
I already have an idea for that in my mind to have a good feeling on that.
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john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 15 2019 11:28am

A dead zone for the first couple degrees either side of a zero detent would then allow for a fine adjust ramp-up for both functions

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by donn » Aug 15 2019 11:38am

With a detent or similar, would people still want the extensive dead zone, which I guess is there to prevent an accidental runaway when something touches the throttle while you're handling the bike, but aren't seated on it?

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Grantmac » Aug 15 2019 1:02pm

Put me down for zero detent, low breakout forces but progressive force increase away from zero along with an exponential output if possible.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Aug 15 2019 1:07pm

With a regen "reverse" I can't imagine no detent.

Without regen, then detent is redundant.

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serious_sam   10 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by serious_sam » Aug 28 2019 6:37am

Reading through this thread makes me think of this:
Homer's Car.jpg
Homer's Car.jpg (60.64 KiB) Viewed 1501 times

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changeissimple   10 W

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by changeissimple » Aug 28 2019 3:18pm

MJSfoto1956 wrote:
Aug 08 2019 6:58am
You might want to study what these guys are doing:

https://www.motionpro.com/c/rev2-throttle
Is that what you are using? Im interested to see how it would pair with my Sabvaton 72150 and QS205

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MJSfoto1956   100 kW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Aug 28 2019 3:36pm

changeissimple wrote:
Aug 28 2019 3:18pm
Is that what you are using? Im interested to see how it would pair with my Sabvaton 72150 and QS205
The link mentioned is a mechanical-only solution. But the modular approach is what I was suggesting. Sadly fell on deaf ears.

M
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by John in CR » Aug 28 2019 4:54pm

waynebergman wrote:
Aug 14 2019 7:08pm
Hey Flat tire, I am with drunkskunk.I feel the MC full throttle works because you have clutch to nurse the madness.Half twist for me!
Regarding the little fingers, yes you want only one or two fingers of the big fingers on the brake lever but all the throttle contoll on a half twist is NOT done with the ends of your index braking finger at all it should be controled with the underside of the index finger knuckle but the knuckle that is closer to the wrist not the mid point knuckle. Not sure if this make sense but Drunky is right ........wayne
I agree, a high power ebike can be far more sensitive to changes in throttle position than a gasser motorcycle, andd bumpy conditions (on or off road) can cause small changes in throttle position and the added thrust can cause even more twist. A half twist throttle typically cancels this issue. Sure it requires a different hand and finger movement to use the throttle effectively, but you quickly become accustomed to it, and having part of your hand anchored to a non-twisting portion of the handlebar on the throttle side can be a big plus that results in a more fine control of the throttle. The solution is simple, just cut the throttle tube short if you want a half twist. For comfort and ease of use of the full throttle range it does require a short throw throttle twist.

Regarding this effect with a full twist throttle, I actually caused me to crash on the street once. I was riding quite slowly on my little rocket scooter that has staggering thrust, with a bag of groceries hanging from my left wrist. A gust of wind made the grocery bag swing, which pulled the bar to the left slightly, and that caused a small pulse of throttle. The in turn made the weight of the bag pull even more for a bit more throttle pulse, and when combined with the pulse of thrust ripped the throttle right out of my hand. I all happened in an instant and I'm on the ground with one leg tangled up in the scooter. With a half twist throttle nothing would have happened.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by sl_duck » Sep 16 2019 4:53pm

1. A way to physically limit the rotation range. I can set my controller to have a range of, say, 1/4 turn but the throttle still twists beyond that, so I get less sense of when I'm already at WOT.

2. Ability to accept standard bicycle lock-on grips, rather than be stuck with whatever it comes with.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Sep 17 2019 6:05am

How long should the throttle be? I mean the area you put your hand on. 120mm? 130mm? Tell me a number please :)
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Sep 17 2019 6:13am

John in CR wrote:
Aug 28 2019 4:54pm
waynebergman wrote:
Aug 14 2019 7:08pm
Hey Flat tire, I am with drunkskunk.I feel the MC full throttle works because you have clutch to nurse the madness.Half twist for me!
Regarding the little fingers, yes you want only one or two fingers of the big fingers on the brake lever but all the throttle contoll on a half twist is NOT done with the ends of your index braking finger at all it should be controled with the underside of the index finger knuckle but the knuckle that is closer to the wrist not the mid point knuckle. Not sure if this make sense but Drunky is right ........wayne
I agree, a high power ebike can be far more sensitive to changes in throttle position than a gasser motorcycle, andd bumpy conditions (on or off road) can cause small changes in throttle position and the added thrust can cause even more twist. A half twist throttle typically cancels this issue. Sure it requires a different hand and finger movement to use the throttle effectively, but you quickly become accustomed to it, and having part of your hand anchored to a non-twisting portion of the handlebar on the throttle side can be a big plus that results in a more fine control of the throttle. The solution is simple, just cut the throttle tube short if you want a half twist. For comfort and ease of use of the full throttle range it does require a short throw throttle twist.

Regarding this effect with a full twist throttle, I actually caused me to crash on the street once. I was riding quite slowly on my little rocket scooter that has staggering thrust, with a bag of groceries hanging from my left wrist. A gust of wind made the grocery bag swing, which pulled the bar to the left slightly, and that caused a small pulse of throttle. The in turn made the weight of the bag pull even more for a bit more throttle pulse, and when combined with the pulse of thrust ripped the throttle right out of my hand. I all happened in an instant and I'm on the ground with one leg tangled up in the scooter. With a half twist throttle nothing would have happened.
I guess you can handle that with a capacitor or something similar so it eats up "accidential caused peaks of your throttle". in case of a capacitor I would need to find the golden middle between having a delay on throttle response and eating up peaks.
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john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by john61ct » Sep 17 2019 7:56am

please ignore, sorry

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by John in CR » Sep 17 2019 7:05pm

DasDouble wrote:
Sep 17 2019 6:13am
John in CR wrote:
Aug 28 2019 4:54pm
waynebergman wrote:
Aug 14 2019 7:08pm
Hey Flat tire, I am with drunkskunk.I feel the MC full throttle works because you have clutch to nurse the madness.Half twist for me!
Regarding the little fingers, yes you want only one or two fingers of the big fingers on the brake lever but all the throttle contoll on a half twist is NOT done with the ends of your index braking finger at all it should be controled with the underside of the index finger knuckle but the knuckle that is closer to the wrist not the mid point knuckle. Not sure if this make sense but Drunky is right ........wayne
I agree, a high power ebike can be far more sensitive to changes in throttle position than a gasser motorcycle, andd bumpy conditions (on or off road) can cause small changes in throttle position and the added thrust can cause even more twist. A half twist throttle typically cancels this issue. Sure it requires a different hand and finger movement to use the throttle effectively, but you quickly become accustomed to it, and having part of your hand anchored to a non-twisting portion of the handlebar on the throttle side can be a big plus that results in a more fine control of the throttle. The solution is simple, just cut the throttle tube short if you want a half twist. For comfort and ease of use of the full throttle range it does require a short throw throttle twist.

Regarding this effect with a full twist throttle, I actually caused me to crash on the street once. I was riding quite slowly on my little rocket scooter that has staggering thrust, with a bag of groceries hanging from my left wrist. A gust of wind made the grocery bag swing, which pulled the bar to the left slightly, and that caused a small pulse of throttle. The in turn made the weight of the bag pull even more for a bit more throttle pulse, and when combined with the pulse of thrust ripped the throttle right out of my hand. I all happened in an instant and I'm on the ground with one leg tangled up in the scooter. With a half twist throttle nothing would have happened.
Zombiess Throttle Tamers did some kind of tunable peak smoothing circuitry, as well as adjustable throttle ramping, but in my post you quoted, I was really just trying to make a point in my rambling way that a half twist throttle eliminates the problem because the outside part of your hand is anchored to a fixed position on the handlebar.

For me a good throttle would be durable and strong, eg strong enough not to break if you grab a heavy ebike by the throttle to pick it up when laying down or to move it around. Instead of just linear voltage change, it would be logarithmic switching to linear (moving the point of change to linear would be adjustable for tuning). It MUST be waterproof, and adjustable to eliminate dead spots at the ends would be important especially since controllers vary in the voltage required before they start to respond. You might consider a motorcyle cable pull throttle that goes to a box with the electronics for tuning.

I guess you can handle that with a capacitor or something similar so it eats up "accidential caused peaks of your throttle". in case of a capacitor I would need to find the golden middle between having a delay on throttle response and eating up peaks.

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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by DasDouble » Sep 19 2019 5:06am

Does anyone know how many Nmm the feather of a throttle should have? I will experiment a bit anyway but would be interesting to know.
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Re: Help me develop the perfect throttle

Post by Andrewol » Nov 17 2019 11:27am

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