General Inquiry from Oz

My wife wants an e-bike, and I'm wondering whether to do a conversion of her Electra Townie...



... or buy something new. Either way, suggestions of what to get and where to get it from will be much appreciated!

First of all we're in Australia. According to the Dillinger site the rules boil down to:

In Australia it is illegal to ride an electric bicycle on road or bike paths with a stated power output of more than 200w without a pedal assist system, or 250w with a pedal assist system. The latter is also required to only have a pedal assist, and limited to do 6km/h via a throttle or cruise control mechanism. In both cases the motor must be speed limited to 25km/h.

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So, max 250w and speed-limited to 25 km/h. Which is fine because my wife doesn't need or want to go fast. The main reason for electric assist is because the area around us is very hilly, so riding around the neighbourhood is not much fun.

Range is likewise not a big deal. 10-20 km should be fine. All riding will be on paved surfaces.

A mid-mount motor seems best. We brought the Townie over from the USA. It has rim brakes and the frame seems to be aluminum with roughly a 70mm bottom bracket.

Does a conversion make sense? What specific parts are best? I was looking at the Bafang BBS01B, is that still a good choice or is there something newer and better now? Any special tools needed? What are good sources in China or elsewhere? Prices here in Oz seem oddly excessive.

Sorry for the dumb questions but I'm a total beginner with this. If a new e-bike purchase makes more sense then specifics about that would also be welcomed. Thanks!

rodr said:

The main reason for electric assist is because the area around us is very hilly,

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Not much help here, but while you're waiting for someone with answers, you might see if you can quantify that, since it's the main thing you care about and "very" is almost meaningless. If the streets are in Google maps, that's one way - get "directions" up a hill, and in bicycle mode it should show the elevation difference along with the horizontal distance traveled, from which you can derive the percent grade by dividing elevation by distance and multiplying by 100. Given grade and distance, you can get a pretty good idea what a particular setup can manage without burning up.

Thanks Donn, looks like about a 7-8% grade near here.

I had an Electra Townie 21D with a rear hub motor that I put together myself. I loved it! I burnt up the motor on it
My mistake for not installing a chain, and trying to climb a very long hill.

For hilly terrain, steep terrain, stop and go traffic ---> You want to look at mid drives, like the BBSHD Mid drives.

Buy everything from https://em3ev.com/shop/?prod_cat_=middle-motor-kit
Very reputable seller, out of China. Buy your battery from them, your mid drive kit, charger, everything.
Throw in a spare throttle.

rodr said:

Thanks Donn, looks like about a 7-8% grade near here.

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How far?

donn said:

rodr said:

Thanks Donn, looks like about a 7-8% grade near here.

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How far?

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Hmm, there are multiple hills like that throughout the area. Typical length of an uphill section might be 100 - 200 meters.

markz said:

...
Buy everything from https://em3ev.com/shop/?prod_cat_=middle-motor-kit
Very reputable seller, out of China. Buy your battery from them, your mid drive kit, charger, everything.
Throw in a spare throttle.

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Thanks. Wow, looks close to $AUD 1400 ($USD 950-ish) with shipping.

Wait, No, Don't!

If she only wants a little help for a few hundreds of meters uphill basically any motor shall do. She doesn't look heavy and she won't brake speed records. Why not just stay legal? A q100 or any other hub in an adequate winding shall get her up there.

Ford Prefect said:

If she only wants a little help for a few hundreds of meters uphill basically any motor shall do. She doesn't look heavy and she won't brake speed records. Why not just stay legal? A q100 or any other hub in an adequate winding shall get her up there.

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Totally agree. Also the steel frame and forks with threaded eyelets near both the front and rear axles will make installing a torque arm easy. Personally I would go for a front hub as it looks like the battery will need to live on a rear rack.

On the bright side, we have hills like that in Seattle, and more generally a lot of 4-5% grades that go farther, and there are thousands of rental bikes laying around with 250W geared hubs. I suppose they occasionally burn out (and yes, the batteries go up in flames, but that made the news - doesn't happen all the time.) The rental companies make money by stocking their fleet with cheap clunkers that they can afford to lose, and when a motor burns out, it's a quick cheap fix to pop a new wheel on (and hopefully ship the old one back to China for parts salvage.) They run on a pedal assist system, likely cadence sensor since at that power level it hardly makes any difference.

I doubt many of the regulars here will be into that kind of ebike experience, but we're way outnumbered by people who are. You should be able to make it work. I guess one of the main things to check is the width between the rear dropouts, where the hub motor wheel will go. Your aluminum frame isn't going to like being spread out to accommodate a wider hub.

Batteries are a whole other topic. Have to put it on a rear rack? I hope not! The motor will be somewhat heavy, and then the battery adds a lot of weight, so the bicycle is going to be substantially heavier. The position of that weight matters, and high and to the rear may be the worst.

I'd consider a 36V BBS01 mid drive.

I see you have short hills of 100m to 200m, so SpinningMagnets post of getting a BBS01 is a good idea, if its cheaper and is within your budget, otherwise a geared motor will do.
Yescomusa sells electric hubs for a reasonable price, $200usd
https://www.yescomusa.com/search?q=hub+motor
Brushless Electric Bicycle Engine, 36v 800w Rear Wheel Hub Motor Kit
26in Rear Hub Electric Bicycle Motor Conversion Kit 36v 800w
on ebay, they are known as "aaccessories" and will ship internationally!
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/36V-750W-Front-Electric-Bicycle-eBike-Conversion-Kit-20-4-Width-Rim/283238959824?hash=item41f25b8ad0:g:HoUAAOSwfhlb2sWR&frcectupt=true
You will have to get it laced into a good rim.
Buy good spokes,good rims here.
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/rims.html

rodr said:

markz said:

...
Buy everything from https://em3ev.com/shop/?prod_cat_=middle-motor-kit
Very reputable seller, out of China. Buy your battery from them, your mid drive kit, charger, everything.
Throw in a spare throttle.

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Thanks. Wow, looks close to $AUD 1400 ($USD 950-ish) with shipping.

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Play around with the Trip Simulator (BETA)
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/trip-simulator.html
Enter your route on Google Maps, under Chart Options - Input Type
zoom out by click the -
then zoom into Oz by rotating the wheel on the mouse making sure the mouse cursor is where you want to zoom into
then right click the starting point and ending point

Thanks everyone for the insightful comments. Very helpful!

Have to say I'm surprised how expensive the mid mount kits are compared to new e-bikes. Anyone have experience with CNEBIKES? In particular looking at this plus their 10 Ah battery, for a total of $USD 619 with shipping.

Also, would a battery fit here where I guess the water bottle goes?

All Bafang mid drives come from the same factory, but the battery pack is highly suspect...

rodr said:

Thanks. Wow, looks close to $AUD 1400 ($USD 950-ish) with shipping.

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Welcome to ebikes.

There are probably batteries that would fit in that space, but you'll have to really look around, worst case someone could almost certainly make a custom one up.

The price differences you're seeing are mainly going to be due to the quality of components, specifically the battery.

The lowest priced ones are going to be made from generic cells, probably won't deliver their stated capacity under normal conditions, and won't last for many cycles.

It's almost never a good deal to buy a cheap battery, which is why you'll almost never have someone here recommend them to you.

Mid drives tend to be more expensive than hub motors, they're more complex and less common, and honestly for your application I think a quality geared hub motor is more appropriate.

It's far easier to operate, less maintenance, and if installed on the front (which I think it completely fine with something low powered) easier to install.

And I say this as a happy daily BBS02 mid drive commuter for several years now. They're great, but I don't think you need one.

Mount the battery on top of that top bar, or on a rear rack.
You can buy T-bolt clamps that are more heavier duty then regular hose clamps.
Canada has Princess Auto, which is like Harbor Freight in the USA.
https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-56-to-2-87-in-t-bolt-hose-clamp/A-p8017040e
Find a bolt with a large head on it, drill a hole in the T-bolt clamp for said bolt, mount battery mount attachment to that.

The battery is the most expensive part of the ebike.

Some have purchased batteries from Home Depot and figured out how to mount it tot he bike, and figured out how to connect it to the ebike.

rodr said:

Thanks everyone for the insightful comments. Very helpful!

Have to say I'm surprised how expensive the mid mount kits are compared to new e-bikes. Anyone have experience with CNEBIKES? In particular looking at this plus their 10 Ah battery, for a total of $USD 619 with shipping.

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Yes. My first order off aliexpress.com in 2015 came from CNEbikes. I asked for a quote on a bafang 500W G02 fatbike motor in a wheel, and a gal sent me a fast response for the wheel, motor, KT controller/LCD. I believe I paid around $400 by paypal and the motor arrived in about two weeks. It worked fine. I bought a battery from a US supplier.

Sm electric motors are compromises and "thru the gear systems" will broaden the performance envelope of a sm. motor, whereas a hub motor are like the 2-speed autos that came in cars when I was a kid, fine from 0 to 60 MPH.
But all she needs is the two-speed auto.
First off, she doesn't weight anything, doesn't need to go over 20 mph (if that) and any hill that a low-speed range "201" geared mini could not get her over, she could have avoided and she probably wouldn't feel that comfortable on, motor or not.
I get around hilly beach towns here in Mexico and I weigh 250 lb.s!
There are some Hills where I need to jump off and push, but they need to have 2 out of the three charatistics below;
1) steep- by that i mean hills that seniors like us would have a hard time walking up more than 20 yards or so.
2)Long-enough. more than 2 or 3 blk.s. If I get a run at it, I can go quite a ways before the bike starts to "lug" down.
3) rough or rutted.
How many hills like that does she need to go up?
Run a decent geared mini motor kit for less hassle, shifting and expense and put the money in a good Li-Ion batt. pack. 48V for 16 to 18 mph or 52 V for 18 to 20 mph.
If she wants to ride primarily for exercise, get one of the kits w/ a Sine Wave controller w/ the 5-level Current-limiting feature that improves the PAS (Pedal Assist System)
If later maybe she wants more performance, move that system to a more "roadie" bike.
Take a look at BMS Battery, they have a lot of stuff to look at and get an idea, even if you don't buy from them. Maybe your freight will be less than what we pay here in the States.

Oh, I almost forgot, put the batt. pack in a custom bag slung in the step-thru area, it's a natural and the best spot for balance. She'll lose the "step-thru", but the first rule to qualify for an ebike is to be able "throw that leg over" . (actually I almost always stand on the left pedal, start softly to start moving and mount.)

I'd agree on the hub motor and iv'e seen locally advertised hub bikes for less than a grand. I got one through dick smith. Lietner have been around a while selling cheap ebikes but I have no experience with their bikes.

Progear bikes with their mid-drive are another step up worth considering. I have their fat bike and so far so good (aside from a mashed crank arm.. torque and loctite those bafang crank arms!)

You can get a nice bafang kit from aliexoress with a bafang display and waterproof connectors, it's easy to swap motors if it ever dies, i'd then invest in a decent rim and spokes and lace it or get it done rather than trust the missus to a cheap wheel build... Try ur luck with a cheap battery or em3ev if you want it to likely outlast the bike.

good luck :thumb: