Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

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Little Voice   10 mW

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Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Aug 28 2019 2:23pm

Heya, I stumbled across the Sturmey Archer 3 speed Hub with 8-9 speed cassette with disc brake mounting code: CS-RK3 Black
product webpage http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/produc ... -rk3-black

I am thinking of running one on with a Bafang BBS02, for touring on roads with pedal assist (not hot-rodding).
I have read that S.A. 3 speeds are strong, this seems like a variant of those but with a cassette mount for a 8 to 9 speed.
I have run the numbers and it works out to have about the same gear range as a Rohloff IGH but is way cheaper.

Has anyone any experience in running one of these with a BBS02, BBSHD or any other mid drive please?

Were you gentle with it or not, did you break it, was it off road and so on, how long and how much have you used one please?


Thanks in advance for sharing any informed views you have on this. :)
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markz   100 GW

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by markz » Aug 28 2019 9:35pm

Spinning Magnets did an article on just that....
https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kit-igh/


Also this is an interesting article, yes it talks about belts instead of chains. Also the talk on replacing a rear flat.
But the talk on IGH in general for commuting is interesting.
https://forums.roadbikereview.com/commu ... 67049.html

I'd just stick with the tried and true old skool setup. Whether you want a 3x or 2x or 1x crank and 7 or 8 speed rear.

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by flat tire » Aug 28 2019 10:39pm

Chain with derailleur and cassette works by far the best and most reliably if you want a bicycle mid drive with multiple speeds.

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by andrebandre » Aug 29 2019 3:31pm

I have an SA RK3 and a Sram DD on my bikes.
I put in excess of 5000W through them now and then and in excess of 2000 miles each to date.
I'm amazed how tough they are.
Neither really a pain when you need to get the wheel off. It is not QR but much easier than a DD.
The only thing i don't like about the SA is the gear sequence, it is the reverse of Sram.
When the shifter is at repause the SA is in the 3rd (high) gear.
So every time you start you have to shift to 1st (low).
A straightforward cassette/deraileur is probably still the best most reliable but the the chainline in my case,
20" wheels sucks if i went for that.
I use 5 sproket clusters and mostly use just 3 of the sporkets, center and one up or down.
I have never had any of them bend or chain slippage or worse.
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markz   100 GW

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by markz » Aug 29 2019 4:24pm

I have found something very interesting in the last week.

Its an option!

Bicyclists have the ability to add a fourth crank gear! Giving you more gear options!
By getting the closest FD you require (crank gear size, capacity), having that FD most likely a 3x if you want 4x, then shaping the FD's cage you can have 4x crank. It is a very cool and neat idea!

MOUNTAIN TAMER TRIPLE
MOUNTAIN TAMER QUAD PLUS - Looks like this one has a wider width, if your handy you could get one made. They are sold out.
I just sent out an email on the quad, I am interested in having more gearing options.


Here is the main page
http://www.abundantadventures.com/mtfaq ... .mods.html
Then by just going to the main site - http://www.abundantadventures.com
Clicking on bike parts http://www.abundantadventures.com/quads.html

Its a very neat and cool concept, however the smaller sprockets are no longer being produced, from what I read.
Plus he is all out of the 4X adapter.

----------

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html
Hybrid gearing
Hybrid gearing uses an internal-gear hub along with derailer gearing. Sturmey-Archer makes, and Sachs/SRAM used to make, 3-speed hubs with splines for a Shimano or Shimano-compatible cassette. These hubs are especially useful on bicycles which can't take a front derailer, and on small-wheel bicycles, where the hub's step-up top gear makes an oversized chainwheel unnecessary.
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/ques ... derailleur
Brompton 6-speed bikes combine a 3-speed internal gear with a 2-speed rear mini-derailleur. This is in part to make up with the wide spacing of the 3-speed internal-gear hub.

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Little Voice   10 mW

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Aug 29 2019 6:31pm

markz wrote:
Aug 28 2019 9:35pm
Spinning Magnets did an article on just that....
https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kit-igh/


Also this is an interesting article, yes it talks about belts instead of chains. Also the talk on replacing a rear flat.
But the talk on IGH in general for commuting is interesting.
https://forums.roadbikereview.com/commu ... 67049.html

I'd just stick with the tried and true old skool setup. Whether you want a 3x or 2x or 1x crank and 7 or 8 speed rear.
Thanks very much Markz for your reply, I have read the top thread before and found it interesting, not seen the other thread. Like most things, IGHs have their pros and cons, its a question of weighing them up with respect to our own situation. I am still mulling it over :) Good to have other info sources pointed to.

Thanks also for sharing about the quad crank gears, that is news to me. I wonder what 4 chain-rings on the front look like assembled. Shame they are coming to an end, maybe someone else makes them. Would possibly be good with a hub motor, not too sure what it would do to the chain-line though.

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Little Voice   10 mW

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Aug 29 2019 6:51pm

andrebandre wrote:
Aug 29 2019 3:31pm
I have an SA RK3 and a Sram DD on my bikes.
I put in excess of 5000W through them now and then and in excess of 2000 miles each to date.
I'm amazed how tough they are.
Neither really a pain when you need to get the wheel off. It is not QR but much easier than a DD.
The only thing i don't like about the SA is the gear sequence, it is the reverse of Sram.
When the shifter is at repause the SA is in the 3rd (high) gear.
So every time you start you have to shift to 1st (low).
A straightforward cassette/deraileur is probably still the best most reliable but the the chainline in my case,
20" wheels sucks if i went for that.
I use 5 sproket clusters and mostly use just 3 of the sporkets, center and one up or down.
I have never had any of them bend or chain slippage or worse.
Thanks AndreBandre for sharing your experience.
20" wheels, is that a fat bike, a recumbent or a moulton style bike per chance?

I am wondering what sort of terrain you are covering, road or off road, mostly flat or some hills please?

Also I am interested to know what motor you are using? 5000W seems a lot, maybe you have a power bike?

Can I ask what you mean by "It is not QR but much easier than a DD" please?

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by MadRhino » Aug 30 2019 6:24pm

Shifting hubs can’t take much power, but they can be shifted at rest and that is a big advantage for a small mid drive.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Little Voice   10 mW

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Aug 30 2019 7:56pm

MadRhino wrote:
Aug 30 2019 6:24pm
Shifting hubs can’t take much power, but they can be shifted at rest and that is a big advantage for a small mid drive.
Yep gear sensors that cut off power on the motor can help with that. Prior to their development folks stopped pedalling to change gears :)

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by andrebandre » Aug 31 2019 11:29am

Thanks AndreBandre for sharing your experience.
20" wheels, is that a fat bike, a recumbent or a moulton style bike per chance?

I am wondering what sort of terrain you are covering, road or off road, mostly flat or some hills please?

Also I am interested to know what motor you are using? 5000W seems a lot, maybe you have a power bike?

Can I ask what you mean by "It is not QR but much easier than a DD" please?
Commuting on flat terrain mostly, on bad roads, but often against high winds.
Quick release is the skewer that goes through axle and allows wheels to be removed quick and easy, probably most common on road bikes.
Direct drive hub motors are not as easily removed because of the wires.
Dual drives are somewhere in between, i would say.
BBSHD is quite a though and versatile mid drive, it can take a lot of abuse without complaining.
The CYC seems even more so but it is too new so time will tell.
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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by qwerkus » Aug 31 2019 2:56pm

Depends on power levels. I run a BBS02 around 800W, and it works fine with an alfine 8 IGH hub. Shifting is cleaner with high end shimano hubs, and drag insignificant. With that setup, chainline issues are a thing of the past. A few thousands miles no troubles so far. You have to be very careful though to avoid shifting under load, as the motor can easily break the prawls inside the hub when running at full power (1000+W). Carrying 60Kg load + my 75Kg up 8% hills is no problem and as MadRhino already said: beeing able to shift at standstill is a HUGE advantage: you can always shift down safely after an emergency stop to protect the nylon gear... and your knees!

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Sep 01 2019 7:52am

andrebandre wrote:
Aug 31 2019 11:29am
Commuting on flat terrain mostly, on bad roads, but often against high winds.
Quick release is the skewer that goes through axle and allows wheels to be removed quick and easy, probably most common on road bikes.
Direct drive hub motors are not as easily removed because of the wires.
Dual drives are somewhere in between, i would say.
BBSHD is quite a though and versatile mid drive, it can take a lot of abuse without complaining.
The CYC seems even more so but it is too new so time will tell.
Thanks AndreBandre looks like a wonderfully unique bike you have. I bet it is fun. Thanks for clarifying the short-hand and giving more pics and info on usage. :)

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Little Voice   10 mW

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Sep 01 2019 8:00am

qwerkus wrote:
Aug 31 2019 2:56pm
Depends on power levels. I run a BBS02 around 800W, and it works fine with an alfine 8 IGH hub. Shifting is cleaner with high end shimano hubs, and drag insignificant. With that setup, chainline issues are a thing of the past. A few thousands miles no troubles so far. You have to be very careful though to avoid shifting under load, as the motor can easily break the prawls inside the hub when running at full power (1000+W). Carrying 60Kg load + my 75Kg up 8% hills is no problem and as MadRhino already said: beeing able to shift at standstill is a HUGE advantage: you can always shift down safely after an emergency stop to protect the nylon gear... and your knees!
Thanks for the feedback Qwerkus. The downside gearing wise on the Alfines is that they lack gearing for extreme gradients, at least if it was relying solely on human power. But still going up a 8% with 135kg load is impressive.

I am not too sure what the number of teeth on an Alfine is, generally at least twice as big chain-ring to sprocket teeth is advised with an Ebike with IGH. I wonder how much wear you are getting on that rear sprocket after a few thousand miles please?
I am considering long distance travel and durability, and weighing up the pros and cons of each set up.

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by qwerkus » Sep 01 2019 8:08am

Little Voice wrote:
Sep 01 2019 8:00am
hanks for the feedback Qwerkus. The downside gearing wise on the Alfines is that they lack gearing for extreme gradients, at least if it was relying solely on human power. But still going up a 8% with 135kg load is impressive.

I am not too sure what the number of teeth on an Alfine is, generally at least twice as big chain-ring to sprocket teeth is advised with an Ebike with IGH. I wonder how much wear you are getting on that rear sprocket after a few thousand miles please?
I am considering long distance travel and durability, and weighing up the pros and cons of each set up.
Wear resistance is also a major concern here. Using a large rear sprocket and good chain tension lowers wear considerably. My stainless steel sprocket still looks quite new. Also, this setup allows you to use wide 8mm bmx chains, like mine, which last a lot longer than 3/32" derailleur chains. So far no signs of wear there either. No sure what you mean by "lacking extreme gradients". The alfine 8 speed has 307% gear range. On my cargo-geared bike, with 44T front and 22T rear, I can easily reach 40km/h on flats and still up crawl any hill fully charged. I actually routinely pedal without motor assist for the additional exercise, and find the gearing quite adequate for my non trained condition.

My only complaint is that there are too many gears in between. For a mid drive, I find 5 to be a sweet spot. But the only hub available is the SA 5speed which has reliability issues. Using a grip shift instead of the alfine lever would help shifting faster, but after trying it I found shifting was not as precise, and you really want 0 shifting play when using a mid drive + alfine 8 to avoid damaging the prawls. That leads us to the second issue, which is no shifting under load. This is crucial. You need to cut off motor power every time before shifting if you don't want to kill your hub. Sort of like a car with manual transmission. Righ now I'm doing everything manually, but I'm considering getting a gear sensor, though the ultra short cable travel during IGH shifts could be problematic.

Here is a link to the build: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=99376

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by matmaxgeds » Sep 01 2019 4:54pm

Shimano has a relatively new 5 speed hub which claims to be stronger for ebike use: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-5D.html

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by qwerkus » Sep 02 2019 3:21am

matmaxgeds wrote:
Sep 01 2019 4:54pm
Shimano has a relatively new 5 speed hub which claims to be stronger for ebike use: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-5D.html
Cool - I didn't know that one. Looks promising, though the gear range of 263% is a bit on the lower side for serious use. The nice part are the new super large sprockets (24, 27 and 30T). Also, direct drive one the first gear seems awesome.

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by matmaxgeds » Sep 02 2019 6:11am

Yes, a wider spaced 5 speed hub would be great! It really seems not popular as even something like the Pinion C6 has less than 300% range I think - I guess people worry about big jumps between gears a lot.

In terms of strength, I have also put a fair few (3,500km) of hard loaded (200kg) tandem miles on a Nuvinci 380 without any issues to date. It is just very heavy, a bit less efficient and less (380%) than the range the OP is after, but on the plus side, can do a good degree of shifting under load. I would also say that the usable range was more like 360% as it gets less efficient at the extremes but even that is enough to get over mountains if you don't need to go faster than say 20 mph.

I guess this is why they still sell lots of Rohloffs!

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by matmaxgeds » Sep 02 2019 6:21am

Then again you can get greater than 550% range on a 1x these days, maybe that just keeps it all simpler!

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-et ... range.html

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by qwerkus » Sep 02 2019 11:28am

matmaxgeds wrote:
Sep 02 2019 6:21am
Then again you can get greater than 550% range on a 1x these days, maybe that just keeps it all simpler!

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-et ... range.html
Wouldn't advise one of those for a bbs02. First the chainline is going to be a mess on the extremes, which means increase chain drops, and than the chain itself will be super thin = much faster wear.

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Grantmac » Sep 02 2019 11:34am

I'm not sending mid-drive power through a $300 cassette with the two largest gears being alloy.

Give me a steel 45-12 9spd any day though. I'll take those gaps.

However if that new 5spd Shimano can take 1500w continuously that's starting to look really good for a commuter.

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Sep 02 2019 6:09pm

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 01 2019 8:08am
Wear resistance is also a major concern here. Using a large rear sprocket and good chain tension lowers wear considerably. My stainless steel sprocket still looks quite new. Also, this setup allows you to use wide 8mm bmx chains, like mine, which last a lot longer than 3/32" derailleur chains. So far no signs of wear there either. No sure what you mean by "lacking extreme gradients". The alfine 8 speed has 307% gear range. On my cargo-geared bike, with 44T front and 22T rear, I can easily reach 40km/h on flats and still up crawl any hill fully charged. I actually routinely pedal without motor assist for the additional exercise, and find the gearing quite adequate for my non trained condition.

My only complaint is that there are too many gears in between. For a mid drive, I find 5 to be a sweet spot. But the only hub available is the SA 5speed which has reliability issues. Using a grip shift instead of the alfine lever would help shifting faster, but after trying it I found shifting was not as precise, and you really want 0 shifting play when using a mid drive + alfine 8 to avoid damaging the prawls. That leads us to the second issue, which is no shifting under load. This is crucial. You need to cut off motor power every time before shifting if you don't want to kill your hub. Sort of like a car with manual transmission. Righ now I'm doing everything manually, but I'm considering getting a gear sensor, though the ultra short cable travel during IGH shifts could be problematic.

Here is a link to the build: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=99376
Thanks for the tip on the BMX chains Qwerkus, will definitely keep it in mind if I go with an ordinary IGH.

Comparing Rohloffs with Alfines then Rolhoffs have way more climbing gears, like the sort of thing for a 20% or more gradient especially if not motor assisted (but lack the speed of an Alfine 11 (Alfine 8s lack the fastest gearing that the 11s have), even though the gear range is greater on a Rohloff 514%). So thats what I was talking about before when talking about gearing for extreme gradients.

I am pretty sure that I saw mention of a version of the Bafang gear sensor for IGHs somewhere online, but it was a few weeks ago and I have been to so many sites researching the subject of ebikes, but wish you luck if you try to find it. Sorry if that is more hopeful than helpful, but at least it is maybe something.

Can I ask how is the battery on your bike encased please? (I just had a quick peak at your build pic)

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Little Voice   10 mW

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Sep 02 2019 6:15pm

matmaxgeds wrote:
Sep 01 2019 4:54pm
Shimano has a relatively new 5 speed hub which claims to be stronger for ebike use: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-5D.html
Oh interesting I will definitely have to check out the gearing and how much torque it can take. It doesn't seem so expensive, well compared with some IGHs :) Thanks MatMaxGeds

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Sep 02 2019 6:21pm

qwerkus wrote:
Sep 02 2019 3:21am
matmaxgeds wrote:
Sep 01 2019 4:54pm
Shimano has a relatively new 5 speed hub which claims to be stronger for ebike use: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-5D.html
Cool - I didn't know that one. Looks promising, though the gear range of 263% is a bit on the lower side for serious use. The nice part are the new super large sprockets (24, 27 and 30T). Also, direct drive one the first gear seems awesome.
The hub I was talking about originally has a direct drive middle gear, 1st is lower for hills and 3rd faster. Combined with a cassette with with say 8 or 9 speeds (I believe it can fit 10) gives more range similar to a Rohloff but less granny gears and faster top gear. Of course there are cons as well as pros, such as wear and chain-line.

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Sep 02 2019 6:25pm

matmaxgeds wrote:
Sep 02 2019 6:21am
Then again you can get greater than 550% range on a 1x these days, maybe that just keeps it all simpler!

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-et ... range.html
I prefer the Box 2, 9 speed cassette for Ebikes, it is cheaper and packs one less gear into the same space allowing a thicker chain. 11-50 teeth sprockets.

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Re: Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

Post by Little Voice » Sep 02 2019 6:29pm

Grantmac wrote:
Sep 02 2019 11:34am
I'm not sending mid-drive power through a $300 cassette with the two largest gears being alloy.

Give me a steel 45-12 9spd any day though. I'll take those gaps.

However if that new 5spd Shimano can take 1500w continuously that's starting to look really good for a commuter.
Not too sure what power, torque and gear range the SHIMANO STEPS E-BIKE Dedicated Mechanical Internal Geared Hub Disc Brake 5-speed can take.
Anyone found any more info on it please?

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