1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
BlueSeas   10 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by BlueSeas » Sep 12 2019 8:10am

You could ask this seller on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/stores/node/9956946011

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by Jil » Sep 14 2019 2:57am

Thank you, but they don't propose the G360 on their AMazon store.
Any other option ?
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

AHicks   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by AHicks » Sep 14 2019 8:14am

Seems to me this about how much regen you need? All the motors mention have a decent amount of power, so maybe I'm missing something. It seems to me a flatlander is going to be hard pressed justifying the expense of the GMAC, no? It's all about the amount of regen available at lower speeds as I understand it. At higher speeds the DD can provide some regen (not sure variable would be necessary?), but the Bafang?

qwerkus   1 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by qwerkus » Sep 14 2019 11:50am

Jil wrote:
Sep 14 2019 2:57am
Thank you, but they don't propose the G360 on their AMazon store.
Any other option ?
Wouldn't recommend the G360. Its power density is less than a MAC, while more expensive than a mxus GDR-19. The only really nice thing is the potential for oil cooling, but I don't know how well it will work. If you want to stick with your 29er, and unless you terrain is super flat, I can't but stress that nothing will beat a mid drive in terms of efficiency. bbs02 kits ready to use are actually cheaper than a mac, and only marginally more expensive than a g360 kit. If you want regen, get a frame with smaller wheels. Even 26 will be an improvement, or build your own left drive system.

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by Jil » Sep 16 2019 5:46am

I used to have a 48V/BBS01 on my ebike, I really prefer the rear G310. Whether for the smoothness or the chain drive durability.
qwerkus wrote:
Sep 14 2019 11:50am
Wouldn't recommend the G360. Its power density is less than a MAC, while more expensive than a mxus GDR-19.
Have you tried it ? My point is just to have a motor that can run at 40-45 kph on flat terrain at 800-1000 W indefinitely without overheating (and without oil cooling), with my 29" wheels. I don't really care about climbing capabilities, I live near the ocean in a very flat area, the maximum altitude in a 50 km radius around my home should be 50m ;)
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

qwerkus   1 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by qwerkus » Sep 16 2019 10:39am

Jil wrote:
Sep 16 2019 5:46am
I don't really care about climbing capabilities, I live near the ocean in a very flat area, the maximum altitude in a 50 km radius around my home should be 50m ;)
Should have started there. On flat terrain, almost any hub will work fine. I'd get a 27mm DD. Cheaper and offers Regen. 2Kg heavier. But even classic BPM will make you fly on flats!

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 16 2019 11:13pm

Jil,

I have had a 1 generation Mac 6 T motor on a bike with 27.5 wheels / 2.10 tires and it did fine on the flats and even up hills as long as they were not too long or too steep.

I then tried a cheep DD hub motor ran it at the speeds you speak of on a 26 inch wheel bike.

For you since you want to go constant higher speeds , get a fast motor . perhaps not the fastest like the 6 T something that is more like the 8 T since you are using 29er wheels.

The only thing you have to pay attention to is just keep the speeds mostly above half the top speed of the motor , it will then work good in bigger wheels.


I would , Not , buy from place that will not contact you back within a day or two .

Grin would be a great place to buy your components from , as well as eM3ev . em3ev.com ( fast motor , 36-72 volt controller controller , and Cycle Analyst 3 with over heat shut down/throttle down function is what you need.

Read what E.S. member Neptronix writes about motors , he has allot of experience on doing exactly what you are wanting to do and what I have spent much of my riding time doing.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by Jil » Sep 20 2019 6:55am

Thank you everybody for your advices.
Just cancelled today my order of the G360 on Alibaba/Gomax, a vendor that doesn't reply more than once every 2 weeks doesn't make me feel confident...
In addition, Justin told me he wasn't impressed about the G360 after having tested it.

I have been playing with the Grin simulator, finally it looks like the RH212 with Statorade will be the good choice for me. Too bad for the 2.5 kg more (compared to the GMAC) and the drag, but I will just have to use my bike only with battery (which I already do 95% of the time)... Almost the same performance (84% vs 85%) than the GMAC at 45 kph, and less prone to overheating at low speed (which could be usefull if I use it on hilly places). The top speed around 47 kph is the right one for me.

@ 20 kph on 6% hill, even without statorade and despite the better performance of the GMAC at low speed, the overheating time is still slightly in favour of the RH212 :
Image
Image
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by Jil » Sep 23 2019 12:56pm

Hi,

Still not fixed on RH212 vs GMAC.
2.5 kg less and much smaller plays in favor of the GMAC, while the maintenance-free and statorade is on the RH212's side.
The difference of budget is not that high, around 140 USD more for the GMAC if I pick up the Phaserunner option for both motors (given the fact that I will have to add the statorade + torque arm with the RH212). And 110 USD if I take into account the delivery to France (more expensive for the heavier RH212).

I have one question about the GMAC : 10T or 8T ? ...given the fact that I want to be able to run at 45 kph and that my playground is flat land.
The 10T is perfect at mid-voltage, but near the end of my 52V battery (my cut-off voltage is 42V), the 10T will clearly be peaking too early (around 38 kph).
In addition, the efficiency is almost the same on hilly terrain, see below the example on a good 8% hill @ 20 kph.
I'm not familiar with the Grin simulator, so I'm not sure whether it's realistic or not.

What do you think ? Should I bet on the GMAC 8T instead of the 10T (if I don't lean toward the DD) ?

Image
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360, GMAC, or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Sep 29 2019 11:04am

Still hunting for my next motor.
I'm fond of the simplicity and reliability of the DDs, as well as their ability to run without overheating on long hills with statorade, but... they're heavy ! In addition, I have realized that my dropouts are 12*142, I have adapters for the G310, the GMAC (round 10mm axle) will fit the same adapters , but the RH212 (square 10-14mm axle) will be complicated to install properly.

So I have added 2 motors to my short list, which fit thru axles without modifications :
- Rear Crystalyte H3540 : https://www.ebikes.ca/news/reat-thu-axle/
- Front Grin All Axle (my fork is 15x110mm) : https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/all- ... motor.html

The Crystalyte is almost 7kg, while the Grin is only 4kg. My bike is a Surly Krampus with a solid steel fork, so it shouldn't be an issue for the front motor.

I have never tried a bike with front motor, I have readen some posts concerning the cons and pro of rear vs. front, but what would be your advice for a direct drive motor : rear Crystalyte or front Grin ? Or should I go for the RH212 and find a way to adapt it to my dropouts ?

What about regenerative breaking on a front hub ?

Thanks :)
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

qwerkus   1 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Post by qwerkus » Oct 04 2019 10:40am

Jil wrote:
Sep 23 2019 12:56pm
And 110 USD if I take into account the delivery to France (more expensive for the heavier RH212).
If you live in France, you can get your stuff from Ozo: https://ozo-electric.com/en/rear-wheel- ... rh212.html
They don't have the GMAC (yet) but seem to carry of lot of grin products. Plenty of goods motors there and prices are ok. Much better (and climate friendly) than air shipping from canada...

I wouldn't worry too much about the extra weight. On flats, it won't make a huge difference. Weight is only and issue if you have to carry you bike around, or pedal up steep hills.

sleepy_tired   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by sleepy_tired » Oct 04 2019 1:54pm

I have never tried a bike with front motor
I have a 52v, 35 amp controller with a cheap 1kw motor and it's pretty easy to spin the front wheel on concrete while starting on a steep hill. Also while riding slowly in grass I can goose the throttle and spin the wheel a bit that way. The solution is to lean slightly forward to put more weight on the front. Once you get going faster then 3mph or so it's not a issue.

Note that this is with a bike I swapped out the front suspension so I can install a proper front cargo rack. I'll happily throw 20-30 pounds on the front wheel and am fine with that. Just slows down the steering somewhat. I don't notice any ill effect of having a DD hub motor and no cargo.

With a thru axle and built in torque arm there is no real disadvantage until you start getting into higher power levels. Once you get past 750 watts or so then traction on loose surfaces becomes a issue when you are starting from a stop.

I am happy with this setup and think it's the way to go for anything 1kw or less.


It's a nice and very clean way to install a motor and it avoids a lot of the pitfalls you tend to see with rear hub motors or mid-drives. Since you are only changing out the front wheel then it doesn't impact the Q-factor (distance between pedals), doesn't screw up the chain line, and doesn't require modifications or changes to the rear gear cluster. It's very good for people who want to be able to use a bicycle as a bicycle and don't mind putting some effort into pedaling up hills.

The biggest advantage to the motor is actually helps balance out the bike a bit. All bicycles are heavily weight biased towards the rear. The rear wheel is already weakened (unless you are on a fat or plus sized bike) due to the wheel build having to be asymmetrical to allow clearance for the rear gear cluster. Even putting the battery in the middle adds more weight to the back then the front. Add a big hub motor or powerful mid-drive then you'll need a very nice rear wheel to survive the abuse long term.


Surly bike with Grin all axle motor is a dream ebike of mine. It's a fantastic way to go IMO.

I would only go with the Crystalyte rear motor if you want higher power levels.

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Oct 04 2019 3:16pm

Interesting feedback sleepy_tired :)
My short-list is now Grin All Axle (front) vs GMAC (rear).

My main use will be around 700-900 watts, at high speed, on pavement. Intense use : 50 kms per day, 3 to 4 days per week.

I don't have any trouble with chain alignement on my Surly with the G310, it should'nt be different with a GMAC for example.
But the Grin All Axle still interests me because it's a light and high-quality direct drive motor, and you're right, it will help balancing better the bike.
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Oct 07 2019 11:30am

Final choice ordered : rear GMAC 8T + Phaserunner.
Thanks everyone for your help :wink:
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

mexican_amigo   1 µW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by mexican_amigo » Oct 08 2019 2:05pm

Please let us know how it goes. I also have a Surly (Disc Trucker) that I am considering to convert with the GMAC.

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Oct 09 2019 4:04pm

Sure, I will.
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Oct 19 2019 8:29am

GMAC and Phaserunner received, installation this WE :D

Image
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Oct 20 2019 10:32am

Installation done :)

First impressions :

- Powerful ! Compared to the G310 is was a foregone conclusion. I have set it up at 1500W max, I don't need more. PAS only, no throttle.

- The moteur is smooth with my Cycle Analyst settings (I have a slow ramp-up), the only downside is the light noise. The G310 is totally silent, above 3-400W the GMAC is a little bit noisy, but really nothing annoying.

- The regen breaking is set "basically" with the Cycle Analyst, as I don't have the cable to tune the Phaserunner. Even like this the ebrake is awsome :) It's set around 800W maximum, it's sufficient and I prefer to be conservative given the raise in voltage each time I brake (up to 1.5V on my 52V battery), it can possibly damage the battery if the breaking is too hot on a full battery. But even with this settings it replaces almost entirely the hydraulic brakes, except of course for emergency breaking.
The ebrake is controled on the rear lever with the TripWire sold by Grin, very easy to install.

A few pictures.

G310 vs GMAC
Image

Very good finish of the GMAc and the Phaserunner. The compactness of the Phaserunner is truly impressive !
Image
Image
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

donn   1 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by donn » Oct 20 2019 11:24am

Jil wrote:
Oct 20 2019 10:32am
the ebrake is awsome :) It's set around 800W maximum, it's sufficient and I prefer to be conservative given the raise in voltage each time I brake (up to 1.5V on my 52V battery), it can possibly damage the battery if the breaking is too hot on a full battery. But even with this settings it replaces almost entirely the hydraulic brakes, except of course for emergency breaking.
That doesn't look terribly conservative to me. I think mine tops out at a little over 300W. Perhaps along with the effect on the battery, another reason people go light on the regenerative braking force is that it's all or nothing, and under some riding conditions the tire could lose its grip on the road if the braking is too hard. I guess you have the potential for variable rate breaking, with the Phaserunner, but the trick is to find a satisfactory control for it.

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Oct 20 2019 1:15pm

Yes you're right, my ebrakes are 0/1. Perhaps, with the TripWire and the Phaserunner, I will be able to set variable e-breaking.
But for now, this setting is good to me. I will confirm next week, with 50 km of daily commuting to work, if this new GMAC is up to the job. I think it will :D
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by LowkeeRider » Oct 20 2019 10:30pm

Hi there,
I have a question on the G310 motor.

I am not a strong rider. I only wanted to go 40k/h but doing it as quiet as possible. Does the G310 meet my needs?

I have a bbs02, how does the G310 compared in term of quietness at 40k/h?

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Oct 21 2019 12:29am

Hi,

The G310 is very (very very) quiet. More than the BBS.

But you won’t be able to maintain durably 40kph with this motor, except if you have a tuck position, the road is flat and there is no upwind.

More than the speed, keep in mind that the G310 is perfect up to 600W (battery power) continously, on flat with no upwind. More than that, it will overheat, I’ve tested several times.

If you don’t know it, have a look on the Grin simulator:
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

mexican_amigo   1 µW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by mexican_amigo » Oct 21 2019 12:10pm

What made you choose the 8T over the 10T? I got the impression that the 8T was better for smaller wheels. Perhaps it's a better motor for going at speeds >30mph. That sounds doable with your wide tires. My bike is rigid with 2" tires, and I am not sure if going that fast would be a nice ride.

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Oct 21 2019 2:05pm

Despite my 52V battery and 29 inches wheels, I’ve chosen the 8T following simulations with the Grin tool.
My main use is flat terrrain at 45 kph, 28/30 mph.
For this 10T would have worked at 50V and higher, but not below.
And the climbing capacity doesn’t change. The difference is the motor current higher with the 8T, which could limit the power, but I don’t plan to use this motor above 30A (battery current), and I still have margin.
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by BlueSeas » Oct 23 2019 5:34am

I just built a similar configuration, but using the 9C212. Still setting up the final configurations. Have a half twist throttle on the right, and a thumb controlled variable regen on the left. The thumb regen connects directly to the Phaserunner. The only "mod" required is cutting the green wire on the throttle input to the Phaserunner, and then using the PC utility to reprogram the voltages to full 1-4V range. The "throttle" passes via the CA3 interface cable, and the braking directly.

You get full control of the regen braking from almost coasting to the max allowable configured in the Phaserunner. I'm using about 600 watts, but will probably up that a little eventually.

The only drawback is CA3 cruise control. The regen brake alone does not disengage CA3 cruise. So as soon as you stop regen, the bike resumes cruise speed. Sometimes this works out OK, like at 20 mph, in a neighborhood, slowing, but not completely stopping for a stop sign. At a full stop, I use the disc brake to disengage cruise. I think cruise is one of the variable presets on the CA3, so will probably turn it off on the default preset so casual riders don't need an explanation.

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