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1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Posted: Aug 29 2019 3:28pm
by Jil
Hi,
I'm thinking about replacing my G310 motor (nice, quiet and small motor, but limited to around 600W continuous electrical power).

I'm wondering what would be the best choice ?
- geared rear motor : GMAC or Bafang G360,
- DD motor : rear RH212 or Crystalyte H3540, or front Grin All Axle.


EDIT : I add the geared Bafang G360, the DD Crystalyte H3540 and Grin All Axle to the short list.

I'm looking for a motor :
- able to handle 1000W (electrical) continously without overheating on flat lands (if it can do it also on hilly areas I take it :) ).
- compatible with my 52V batteries
- silent
- efficient in terms of electrical consumption
- with high torque at low speed and good performance at high speed (I intend to drive my 29" bike with it at 45-50 kph).
- maintenance free

Price set apart, what would be the best choice among these motors ?
Thanks !

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Aug 30 2019 1:50pm
by markz
What is your riding terrain like?
Flat or Hilly or a bit of both

How far are you going to ride your ebike?
Lots of stop and go traffic
Pathways
Single track

Will you be carrying any loads?
Like groceries

Do you want stealth?
Price isn't an issue with you so you can go with a Sinewave controller and have your motor run with no noise.

Why are you stuck on just those 3 motors?
Because the Leafmotor / Leafbike kits are an option for you, you can get them with a display.


Jil wrote:
Aug 29 2019 3:28pm
.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Aug 31 2019 11:14am
by Jil
My terrain is mainly flat, on road and cities, and yes I carry groceries regularly.
I prefer stealth. I’m not stuck with these 3 motors, I just want a good one compatible with Grin controler and CA.
The Bafang G360 could be an option too.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Aug 31 2019 2:38pm
by qwerkus
EDIT: Just saw the 29". Sorry mate but with such a large wheel, I'd strongly advise against a hub or maybe a geared one if the terrain is rather flat. If you want to enjoy the advantages of a DD hub, get a bike with smaller wheels like I did.

I'm in a similar situation, though the terrain here is very mountainous.
If the terrain is flat, any of those hubs will do, though the leaf is probably an overkill for 1000W. Super cheap chinese 27mm DD will work fine. If there are some hills + groceries, it depends on the bike your riding. Large wheels (27+) + long climbs= nogo for hub motors. Only a mid drive will achieve some sort of acceptable efficiency. If you got the cash, the GMAC will do fine in a 26" wheel, especially if you go for a slow 10T wind. Bear in mind that mxus has a new 4.5KG geared GDR19 hub with the same power level and much cheaper. But truely nothing will beat the RH212 laced to a small 20" wheel. I have one here and this thing is a beast. Just have a look at GRINs motor simulator, enter your parameters and see for yourself which motor fits best: https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Don't let you be fooled by the apparent complexity, it's actually super simple to use!

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Aug 31 2019 3:54pm
by Jil
Thanks !

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 05 2019 1:13pm
by 500WhatsThat
29er; I'm close to buying the GMAC 8T with Phaserunner from Grin.

With the 12pole sensor and crank torque sensor for Ped-assist mode.
Also, an analog brake sensor to enable Proportional Regen braking to save brakes (and have that Tesla feel).
The rides are flat lands at 35-40mph for about 5 miles, then slow unassisted touring flat areas, repeat...

So the Phaserunner will get programmed not to assist until above 15mph.
This should lighten the loading of the hub on a larger diameter wheel.

Proportional regen to slow the total weight about 275lbs at several lights, saving brakes and some AHs.
Reading through the Phaserunner manual, I don't think the CA-3 is actually needed to do this.

The Gmac fully configured like above is 3x more than an Chinabox kit, so I hesitate.....

Thoughts from the Experts please?

(Motobegone Trail Elite 29er with 22"(largest) frame)

UPDATED 9/13/2019 Bought the Grin Tech GMAC 8T - Phaserunner - CA3 - Sempu Torque Sensor Kit today. :bigthumb:
Thanks for all your feedback & expertise!

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 05 2019 1:29pm
by sleepy_tired
With a Cycle Analyst v3 and a Grin motor... they have thermal sensors. They can be configured to automatically retard the throttle to prevent overheating. As long as that works there really isn't that much you need to worry about as far as hills and hub motors.
The Gmac fully configured like above is 3x more than an Chinabox kit, so I hesitate.....
The 9c hub motor can be configured in the same way from Grin and it'll be somewhat cheaper. Still can do the regen and proportional regen and all that if you get the CAv3/Phaserunner setup. The new 9c motors they have look pretty slick and should be very efficient for DD hub motors. Or you can take advantage of the sale on the Mxus motors.

The big advantage of the GMAC over DD hub motors is that it's much smaller and lighter. With statorade cooling DD hub motors are now capable of out climbing geared hub motors even though they are somewhat less efficient at it.

If you have some road bike or fancy carbon bike or something like that that is already optimized for weight then it's a bit of a shame to throw a clunky DD hub motor at it. But if your donor bike is just a run of the mill mountain bike then a DD hub motor can match it for the road quite well.

I like Grin a lot, but keep in mind that the difference really comes down to those more advanced features. If you want those features then go for it.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 05 2019 1:50pm
by 500WhatsThat
sleepy_tired, thanks for the quick reply and insights.

The CA-3 looks like it IS required to get this setup running. Its fun too.

The 9c RH212 Fst simulates close to the GMAC 8t (if I read the graphs correctly) and save about $200usd.

looks like about just under 28mph is a max speed, which will probably be "enough" on this MTB.

52V14Ahr batt - forgot to mention

Good "point" on the features Vs $$, at this price level, Go For It!

Thanks!

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 05 2019 3:56pm
by Jil
One question : is the GMAC noisy ?
I've readen comments about the noise of the MAC motor, and this is clearly a no-go for me.
I'm now used to my totally silent G310, so perhaps I should stick to his big bro G360 as a more powerfull, but still silent option ?

By the way, does Grin intend to sell the G360 ?
If not, do you know where I could find one with a reliable dealer ?

PS : I live in a very flat area, so climbing performance is not very important, my point is really to be able to use this motor on road at 45-50 kph/900-1000W during one hour without overheating.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 05 2019 7:32pm
by AHicks
Love the concept of the GMAC. The very day I read about it I received the MAC 12t that I already had on order. Damn! Otherwise I would have gone that route. I still might!

I just wanted to add I'm running the 12t on a sine wave KT controller, and it's no noisier that the 1500w direct drive it replaced. Nearly silent. I see no reason why the GMAC would be any noisier.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 05 2019 11:08pm
by BlueSeas
No expert here, my motor still in the box waiting for me to start my first build.

However, I faced the same decision. After many hours playing with the simulator, I went with the 9C212 STD/Phaserunner/CA3 combo. I am going to use a 72V battery. The donor bike I ordered and planned on was a 26" wheeled MTB hardtail. When the bike arrived from Las Vegas, it was a 29er.

Why this motor selection? The big DD didn't look like I could keep the rear gear cassette. So I focused on the GMAC and the 9C212. If the simulator is right, at 72V the 9C212 offers similar performance for less investment. But probably the biggest reason, no internal gears. Those plastic gears in the GMAC just look like a weak point. Are they? No idea.

After rerunning the sims after I discovered the change from 26" to 29er donor didn't really change the decision. If I wasn't in the FL flatlands, it may have impacted the choice. I spent little time looking at hill climbing. But with Statoraid (not on the sim list), the 9C212 should run cooler than the GMAC.

The CA3 isn't really required. The main benefit on paper is the hub temperature monitoring. But there are also lots of tweaks possible. Including a selectable mode for keeping the bike street legal in FL. So for $100, not sure why you would leave it out.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 06 2019 7:16am
by john61ct
Please link to a CAv3 source selling for $100

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 06 2019 11:58am
by BlueSeas
Sorry...speaking in round numbers. It's $125 at Grin. Are you in the market for one?

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 06 2019 12:23pm
by john61ct
Not this instant, not even sure which flavour I need yet, but a discount source would be welcome.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 06 2019 5:26pm
by E-HP
john61ct wrote:
Sep 06 2019 12:23pm
Not this instant, not even sure which flavour I need yet, but a discount source would be welcome.
I don't need one, but for $100, I'd snag one in an instant.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 06 2019 7:20pm
by 500WhatsThat
Looks like the "System" from this thread (my view only) is:
29er Motebecane Elite Trail hard-tail w/Mech Disk brakes (about 286lbs total per Simulator)

9C RH212 Fst DD Hub Motor
52V 13Ah (option to 72v if needed later) (my DIY 18650 cells)

Then the Feature Rich control system:
Phaserunner/CA3 - this pair gives the full range of program-ability below:
Torque sensor (Sempu) ped-assist modes 1 through 8
Cadence 12 pole on crank
E-Brake switches still = OFF/coast
Analog brake sensor (DIY)
no throttle
CA3 Switch (modes Up/Down)
Temp Sensor
Dual Torque Arms


Programmed Features:

32mph+ cruise
OFF if below 15mph (my preference, encourages health, reduces slow stuttering, and accidental ONs )
Small sized, heat sink to frame
Room in Amps & Volts to expand to 72V later
Very programmable to limit stress on an admittedly torque-stressing larger wheel.
The only choice I know of for true Proportional braking (i'll put a 0.8v to 0v analog sensor on the rear brake.)


9 Ped-Assist modes (1 being just enough to feel like a regular bike through 9=any pedaling=Max speed)

what did I miss?
will buy monday 9/9/19
UPDATED 9/13/2019 Bought the Grin Tech GMAC 8T - Phaserunner - CA3 - Sempu Torque Sensor Kit today. :bigthumb:
Thanks for all your feedback & expertise!

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 06 2019 7:23pm
by john61ct
I want to see this thread replicated for 3kW, then 5kW. . .

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 06 2019 9:18pm
by BlueSeas
500WhatsThat wrote:
Sep 06 2019 7:20pm
Looks like the "System" from this thread (my view only) is:
29er Motebecane Elite Trail hard-tail w/Mech Disk brakes (about 286lbs total per Simulator)

9C RH212 Fst DD Hub Motor
52V 13Ah (option to 72v if needed later) (my DIY 18650 cells)

Then the Feature Rich control system:
Phaserunner/CA3 - this pair gives the full range of program-ability below:
Torque sensor (Sempu) ped-assist modes 1 through 8
Cadence 12 pole on crank
E-Brake switches still = OFF/coast
Analog brake sensor (DIY)
no throttle
CA3 Switch (modes Up/Down)
Temp Sensor
Dual Torque Arms


Programmed Features:

32mph+ cruise
OFF if below 15mph (my preference, encourages health, reduces slow stuttering, and accidental ONs )
Small sized, heat sink to frame
Room in Amps & Volts to expand to 72V later
Very programmable to limit stress on an admittedly torque-stressing larger wheel.
The only choice I know of for true Proportional braking (i'll put a 0.8v to 0v analog sensor on the rear brake.)


9 Ped-Assist modes (1 being just enough to feel like a regular bike through 9=any pedaling=Max speed)

what did I miss?
will buy monday 9/9/19
Dual torque arms? It won't hurt, maybe I should order a 2nd one? Is this necessary? Comments from others requested.

No throttle? Unless you are really trying to adhere to legal limitations, think this is very limiting for the $15 it costs (about). I think proportional braking is possible with no extra parts. Once an ebrake is activated, I think the throttle can function as a proportional regen lever. If you don't want to use it for throttle or braking...it's all optional at ride time. But...it's your bike, and if missed, can be added at any time.

Play with the sim comparing the FST vs STD winding. Especially hills if any. Consider what happens at 72V, if you decide to go there. This might bring you back to the STD winding.

The torque sensor at 72V might cause some wiring changes to pull 5V from the Phaserunner for other accessories. The CA3 at 72V has limited accessory power. See the CA3 doc posted here on ES.

Good luck...we need to compare notes, I won't be building mine out until October.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 07 2019 4:49am
by Jil
Thank you for your feedbacks on the 9C :)
Anyone with a feedback on the GMAC+Phaserunner ?

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 07 2019 8:10am
by E-HP
500WhatsThat wrote:
Sep 06 2019 7:20pm
Looks like the "System" from this thread (my view only) is:
29er Motebecane Elite Trail hard-tail w/Mech Disk brakes (about 286lbs total per Simulator)

9C RH212 Fst DD Hub Motor
52V 13Ah (option to 72v if needed later) (my DIY 18650 cells)

I don't think the OP ever mentioned the capacity of his batteries or the model of bike he has. I think he's looking for advice on the best motor that works with his existing batteries, using a Grin controller and CA, with modest needs with respect to terrain. Frankly any of the motors, with the right winding, can achieve his requirements.

"I'm looking for a motor :
- able to handle 1000W (electrical) continously without overheating
- compatible with my 52V batteries
- silent
- efficient in terms of electrical consumption
- with high torque at low speed and good performance at high speed (I intend to drive my 29" bike with it at 45-50 kph).
- maintenance free
My terrain is mainly flat, on road and cities, and yes I carry groceries regularly.
I prefer stealth. I’m not stuck with these 3 motors, I just want a good one compatible with Grin controler and CA.
I live in a very flat area, so climbing performance is not very important, my point is really to be able to use this motor on road at 45-50 kph/900-1000W during one hour without overheating."

'

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 07 2019 8:36am
by E-HP
Jil wrote:
Sep 07 2019 4:49am
Thank you for your feedbacks on the 9C :)
Anyone with a feedback on the GMAC+Phaserunner ?
Per the simulator, the performance is very similar. Looks like from what you're looking for, the variables that may swing your decision one way or another, considering most of the motors meet the other requirements (1000W, 52V, silent, etc.) are efficiency and torque, but what do you mean by "good performance at high speed"? Do you mean still has good torque at high speed or something else? Knowing that, everything can be compared via the simulator except the subjective stuff like the sound.

"- efficient in terms of electrical consumption
- with high torque at low speed and good performance at high speed (I intend to drive my 29" bike with it at 45-50 kph)."

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 07 2019 9:02am
by Jil
By « good performance at high speed », I mean « high efficiency », ie. a motor with a ratio Wmeca/Welec at its best at speed between 35 and 50 kph with 29 in. tires.

My battery is 52V/20 Ah, so it can handle 1000W during almost one hour.

Why not going for a direct drive ? But it’s heavy, and I prefer a bike that is still usable without a battery, I haven’t tried yet a DD but I think there is a pretty high drag when the bike is used without running the motor ?

By the way, thanks to 500whatsthat for your tip, I have just tuned my CA for starting assistance at 15 kph instead of 0, it’s much better, from the Grin simulation, for the little gears of my G310 :)

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 07 2019 9:39am
by E-HP
Jil wrote:
Sep 07 2019 9:02am
By « good performance at high speed », I mean « high efficiency », ie. a motor with a ratio Wmeca/Welec at its best at speed between 35 and 50 kph with 29 in. tires.

My battery is 52V/20 Ah, so it can handle 1000W during almost one hour.

Why not going for a direct drive ? But it’s heavy, and I prefer a bike that is still usable without a battery, I haven’t tried yet a DD but I think there is a pretty high drag when the bike is used without running the motor ?

By the way, thanks to 500watts for your tip, I have just tuned my CA for starting assistance at 15 kph, instead of 0, it’s much better, from the Grin simulation, for the little gears of my G310 :)
So it sounds like a clutched geared hub is your preference if that's a priority. The G360 you mentioned may require you to stretch your dropouts, so that may be a consideration. With the GMAC, since it's clutchless, the phaserunner will output a little power to the motor to fake freewheeling; so you can't just shut the system off and pedal without the motor without feeling the drag like with a geared clutched hub.

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 07 2019 10:16am
by Jil
The g360 will fit my Surly Krampus at it is 138 mm OLD, like the G310 currently installed on my bike : http://www.bafang-e.com/oem-area/compon ... g360500dc/

I think finally the game for me will be between the G360 and the GMAC.
The big difference is that I can buy the G360 for +/- 200 USD on alibaba, and it will fit on my Grinfineon 20A controller (same connector, and I do not intend to use it at more than 20A). For the GMAC, I will have to buy both the motor and the Phaserunner, ie. 800 USD...

Re: 1 kW motor : MXUS, 9C RH212, G360 or GMAC ?

Posted: Sep 12 2019 7:18am
by Jil
Hi,
Finally I choose the G360. I have contacted Gomax on Alibaba who sells it, but it doesn't seem in a hurry to make a deal for only one motor and announces 1.5 month of delay.
Do you know where I could order one ?