Ok, so I crashed again today...Is it time for a trike in the city?

e-beach

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Any Los Angeles area beach I am at. Or Santa Monic
So I am cruising down the sidewalk going to my organic garden. Up ahead of me is a young couple pushing a stroller with their child. They have their backs to me totally unsuspecting. Ahead of them is a man walking, coming toward me. I am not going very fast, maybe 8mph. So I think, I really should give 100% of the sidewalk to the couple pushing their baby. I shifted off the sidewalk onto the grass strip that was bordering the sidewalk. I trundled along the grass passing the young couple and the other pedestrian and then attempted to get back on the sidewalk. And, as you might have already guessed, my front wheel got caught in a rut between the grass and the sidewalk and down I went.

The result? Scrapes and bruising on my right elbow, abdomen and left knee, and, a swollen left wrist.

At this point I have to say I am tired of getting hurt on an e-bike, and am wondering if it is time for an e-trike.

Any thoughts?

:( :bolt:
 
I can't see it myself, unless A) too infirm to reliably manage with 2 wheels, or B) carry big loads, but ... for what it's worth, I believe member LockH has a very economical (under $500) "mobo triton" delta tricycle, and if he hasn't put a motor on it, I bet he's thought about it. Don't go fast around corners with a delta (two wheels in back), you'll turn over for sure, and this thing isn't built for speed anyway, but it could be amusing.
 
Maybe you should try to ride the streets, instead of sidewalks and dirt. I mean, on a trike you would have to anyway. :wink:
 
Was the crash due to not paying attention to where your riding, that you did not see the rut?
Was the rut perpendicular to the sidewalk edge as your coming back onto the sidewalk?

If so then more angle is needed to get back onto the sidewalk. I've had my rear wheel slide out on me in similar circumstances, but my front wheel always made it either by lifting a bit to help it. Most times I know the lip on the side of the sidewalk is larger then normal because the soil is eroded away. I will then just ride on the grass until I find a spot to get back onto the sidewalk. If there is no spot, and the grass is getting sketchy, like ruts, obsticles then stopping is good too. It happened to me a few days ago.
 
Fat Tyres? I find them much more forgiving. They allow you to look around a bit and squirm over the ruts. Life saver in Yellowstone.

Screen Shot 2019-09-08 at 2.04.44 pm.png
 
e-beach said:
So I am cruising down the sidewalk going to my organic garden. Up ahead of me is a young couple pushing a stroller with their child. They have their backs to me totally unsuspecting. Ahead of them is a man walking, coming toward me. I am not going very fast, maybe 8mph. So I think, I really should give 100% of the sidewalk to the couple pushing their baby. I shifted off the sidewalk onto the grass strip that was bordering the sidewalk. I trundled along the grass passing the young couple and the other pedestrian and then attempted to get back on the sidewalk. And, as you might have already guessed, my front wheel got caught in a rut between the grass and the sidewalk and down I went.

The result? Scrapes and bruising on my right elbow, abdomen and left knee, and, a swollen left wrist.

At this point I have to say I am tired of getting hurt on an e-bike, and am wondering if it is time for an e-trike.

Any thoughts?

There's something to be said about having static stability at a stop as well as dynamic stability that is not dependent upon the inertia/momentum from maintaining spinning wheels.

What is your application?

My own personal preference is to have something that simulates a car. This means low center of gravity and suspension. I like being in control of the vehicle, and am of the opinion that this is the best path to safety.

I've had two trikes, a rear-suspension Thunderbolt that I restored, and a KMX built up from a frame kit with front suspension that I replaced the Thunderbolt with when the Thunderbolt's frame failed. I turned the KMX into a velomobile. Both could corner to more than 0.5G lateral without losing traction or tipping. I've never had a wreck in almost 20,000 miles between the two of them, and I ride in traffic on the street 99.9% of the time. The KMX is stable going downhill at over 50 mph, and very comfortable on rough roads at 30+ mph. I can do a 150 mile ride in a day and not feel sore(other than my leg muscles).

I plan to motorize the KMX when funding permits and make it capable of highway speeds, but it is currently pedal powered in its entirety, and regularly cruises 20+ mph on rides, commonly exceeds 35+ mph down hills, and has 100-150 miles per week placed on it. It would cost about $2,500 to replicate my setup, again, with no electric drive or computer, but with front suspension(gas shocks), Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes, 26/39/52T gearing up front, 32-11T 7 speed gearing in the rear, 20" Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard tires up front, 26" Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tour tire in the rear, strong Velocity USA double-walled steel rims laced to the KMX hubs(the stock KMX wheels are junk), and the body shell, and IMO it was worth every penny and hour spent needed to put it together.

Here's some videos:

https://vimeo.com/284616898
https://vimeo.com/284616919

The first shell got the ergonomics, clearances and storage capacity correct. The next one is going to keep those traits as well as go full retard on improving the aerodynamics so that I will get the most out of whatever electric drive I end up putting in it AND be fully enclosed with NACA ducts strategically placed for cooling. Planning to pick up a used Leafbike motor with a 4T wind available locally soon, and eventually find a junked Model 3 to scavenge some Panasonic 2170 batteries from. It's going to get an FOC controller tuned for silent operation, and will be driven by a torque sensing PAS. I'm going to dump like 4 kW peak to that motor starting out, and with mods(holes, fans, ferrofluid, ect.), eventually go to 10 kW once I got the roll cage, torque arms, hydraulic brakes, moped rims, solar race car tires, rear suspension, and other needed items sorted out and installed. In either configuration, this motor should be good for around 55 mph top end, although eventually I'm going to want one with a 3T wind for more top speed. Hopefully, it will still be relatively easy to pedal compared to a normal bike with the motor shut off.

I used to ride a road bike. Having ridden these trikes, road bikes suck. I'm never going back. Many times on the road bike I'd have to slow down and get on the sidewalk to let impatient car drivers go around me. Not so on the trike; MOST drivers treat it differently and with a bit more respect, not always though. I don't have to worry about a stray pothole sending me airborne or throwing me over the handlebars though.

Once I have a motor in it, I will be able to move with urban traffic in ALL conditions, not just on flattish ground and downhill. That will increase the level of safety tremendously. You can't go wrong.

I don't understand the stigma against trikes. A properly set up trike is like riding a street-legal go-kart. Put an over-powered electric drive system in it, and I'm sure the fun factor gets retarded.

donn said:
I believe member LockH has a very economical (under $500) "mobo triton" delta tricycle, and if he hasn't put a motor on it, I bet he's thought about it. Don't go fast around corners with a delta (two wheels in back), you'll turn over for sure, and this thing isn't built for speed anyway, but it could be amusing.

Those trikes are junk. Very lossy and rather difficult to set up for a wide gearing range. They are not suited for speed. I wouldn't trust one at anything over 15 mph. If you use one of those as your first trike, you may grow to dislike trikes. If LockH likes his though, more power to him. He'd be able to give a more thorough opinion than mine, as I do not own one.
 
e-beach said:
At this point I have to say I am tired of getting hurt on an e-bike, and am wondering if it is time for an e-trike.

Any thoughts?

:( :bolt:
I don't know man. I mean, it's like when I saw my friend's main vehicle become a minivan, you know? If you can walk, you can ride.
 
MadRhino said:
Maybe you should try to ride the streets, instead of sidewalks and dirt. I mean, on a trike you would have to anyway. :wink:

Exactly. Make better riding choices. I would never ride off into the grass at low speeds on my heavy commuter - except perhaps in an emergency of some kind. Grass can hide all kinds of things. Maybe that would be sensible on a lighter off-road bike.

If the road is unsafe or inaccessible in that location, then I'd be patient and ring my bell so that the walkers might allow me to pass on the sidewalk. The fact that my e-bike has power has made me much more patient regarding delays. I actually come to a full stop at stop signs with some frequency and almost always come to a near (2-3 mph) stop. My trip times for 8-10 mile trips vary by maybe five minutes. Big whoop if I get delayed a little bit. Riding an e-bike is not, for me at least, very much about getting somewhere fast.
 
The Toecutter said:
Once I have a motor in it, I will be able to move with urban traffic in ALL conditions, not just on flattish ground and downhill. That will increase the level of safety tremendously. You can't go wrong.

I think you might go very wrong if you try to operate such a thing in regular traffic in Southern California. The law limits you to 28 mph motor assisted. Even if we fudge up to 30 mph, that's not enough to let you flow with traffic. And in So Cal, traffic can get very congested and I'd imagine drivers getting VERY impatient with a funny little velo car slowing down an entire lane.
 
e-beach said:
At this point I have to say I am tired of getting hurt on an e-bike, and am wondering if it is time for an e-trike.

To be clear, I don't have all the details of your situation. It isn't hard for me to imagine a situation where I'd just wouldn't use a bicycle or e-bike for significant amounts of riding/commuting. There isn't always a good bicycle solution.
 
If you crash trying to avoid something at 8 mph you probably need one of those old folks mobility scooters.
 
FWIW, a trike woudln't necessarily stop you from crashing, except that the typical deltas will force you to go slower and prevent you from being able to hop up curbs/etc., so you won't be put into the same situations.

Or...you'll end up being forced to ride on the roads because the other paths are too narrow to ride it.

Either way, the trike will crash in other situations, such as turns, or if you're tipping too far like one wheel going off a sidewalk if the curb is high, or having to make a sudden swerve (even a small one) to avoid something in the path.

There are designs that are less prone to some of these things, but they're more complex and expensive, or bigger and heavier, etc.

I'd generally say that if you were having troulbe just falling over to the side while riding, or sitting there, or other balance problems, a trike would be helpful.

Hauling cargo, etc., where a trailer is impractical, can make a trike a good option, depending on the cargo and the trike design.

So it depends on your needs and conditions, if a trike would be better. I suspect not--a change in riding habits and paths might be more helpful.
 
wturber said:
I think you might go very wrong if you try to operate such a thing in regular traffic in Southern California. The law limits you to 28 mph motor assisted. Even if we fudge up to 30 mph, that's not enough to let you flow with traffic. And in So Cal, traffic can get very congested and I'd imagine drivers getting VERY impatient with a funny little velo car slowing down an entire lane.

That law doesn't stop one from pedaling past 28 mph as long as the motor shuts off, and the police wouldn't be able to easily prove whether that was happening anyway, so it is of relatively low risk to bend the rules a bit if the vehicle is of sufficiently low drag that the 28 mph limit could be exceeded on pedal power alone.

One would have to use careful judgement regarding when, where, and how they rode such a vehicle, not just because of law enforcement, but also traffic.

And the individuals within that traffic can be EXTREMELY unpredictable. My worst encounter with a vehicle operator is below.

I've already been rammed by impatient drivers while stopped at a red light. One of those times was a year ago after a new Nissan SUV driver was butthurt at being stopped in a traffic jam 1.5 miles back while I sped passed it all on the sidewalk at 25 mph. He started honking as I flew past. After a 38 mph downhill sprint from getting back on the road after the traffic jam, I came to a red light and stopped. It stayed red for minutes. After about 3 minutes or so of sitting at the light, I hear full throttle acceleration and then tires screeching behind me. It was that SUV, and he must have been doing 70+ mph before slamming on the brakes(I could see him in the left side mirror when he was hauling ass down the hill behind me). He stopped just a few feet from behind me and it's a miracle he didn't hit me then. He then started to deliberately ram the back of my velomobile repeatedly at walking speed, pushing me towards/slightly into the intersection where 40 mph traffic was going left and right, while repeatedly honking as I was stopped at the red light. It was a white yuppie-type guy in his 40s wearing a suit on a cell phone. It was at that time that I was about to get out before I could be shoved into cross traffic along with my vehicle, figuring this guy was about to destroy my vehicle, pull out my bike lock on a 5 foot chain with an "ornamental" steel morning star spike ball attached to it, smash his windshield/windows, and try to smash his face in and drag his ass out of the vehicle and stomp the shit out of him(at least that was what was running through my head at the time, and I was about to attempt it. I really hate bullies, especially ones who threaten me in such a manner for no valid reason), and before I could even get out, the light turned green, he backed up, peeled out, slipped himself between me and another car in the turn lane, almost hit the car in the turn lane, and sped off full throttle, almost hitting another car in front of him as he made an illegal maneuver cutting off multiple motorists.

Fortunately, the only damage to my velomobile was a broken zip tie. I designed it well considering it held up to a Nissan Murano deliberately ramming it at 3-5 mph.

I've had other hostile encounters with automobile drivers, and for whatever reason(chalk it up to coincidence I guess), it's most commonly been middle aged white men in new SUVs. When I took the body shell off, another SUV driver at another stop light the better part of a year later deliberately rammed me into a car at walking speed bending my front chain rings(they were still usable, just damaged), and sped off. Me and the trike were otherwise unharmed, and the car in front of me was a junker and after talking with the driver, he didn't care about the new scratches on his rust heap.

So yeah, it COULD go very wrong. That's the nature of cycling(no matter how many wheels) in a country where the infrastructure is designed to exclude everything but automobiles and where instant gratification is ingrained into the populace. In my case, I never wrecked, but the closest I've come to doing so would have been entirely the fault of other people abusing their automobiles and generally being posterior orifices. And it could happen any time I go for a ride.

On two wheels, it is very easy to lose stability. Had I been at the light holding up a two-wheeled bike when I got rammed, I'd have been knocked to the pavement.

And face it, the sidewalk generally isn't suitable for cycling. The sidewalk I did 25 mph on was about 15 feet wide and had no pedestrians and no obstacles. That is not a common condition for a sidewalk. There's usually lots of obstacles and the pavement requires more effort to move over. There are often pedestrians as well. PLUS I was on a trike, granting me a sort of stability that one will not get on two wheels as I went over bumps and cracks, which allowed me to do 25 mph without feeling my life was in peril. I almost never ride on the sidewalk, but the traffic conditions were such that the situation warranted it(it was also sweltering outside and I hate being trapped behind cars in the heat spewing out hot exhaust while I have no motion to provide cooling airflow, which really, really sucks in a velomobile).

There's a lesson for e-beach to learn from him straying off pavement in general, but overall the road will usually be a more suitable surface than the sidewalk when one is on any pavement. But the biggest danger on the road is also the reason he rode on the sidewalk to begin with: the automobile traffic. When one rides in the street, the lesser the differential in speed between the cyclist and the automobile traffic, the safer the cyclist is. But it still won't stop jerks from being jerks. That's just a risk we all take when using the street. And at high speeds, I generally trust three wheels more than two, but if and only if the setup is correct for the circumstances(suspension, good brakes, no less than 20" wheels, correct center of gravity to allow sharp cornering without tipping over, ect).
 
I don't know much about the particulars here, but what I do know is there comes a time when people can't process information as fast (or maybe as accurately?) as they used to. It may be that rut may have caused the crash of a young fit person too. Or, in a different situation, that rut should have been a big red flag indicating it was not a good idea to cross it at the angle that was taken. Dunno. Would waiting for the oncoming pedestrian and making the pass around the couple when he cleared (while staying on the pavement) have been a better move? Dunno again.

I will say that a trike does not mix well with traffic on a busy sidewalk. They're too wide.
 
The Toecutter said:
I've already been rammed by impatient drivers while stopped at a red light.

This does not seem to jibe with:
"That will increase the level of safety tremendously. You can't go wrong."

And it really doesn't matter what a police officer can prove. What matters is whether he's going to pull you over, hassle you, and or cite you for. LEO isn't always rational and they can't be relied upon to know such things as e-bike law.

So yeah, it COULD go very wrong. That's the nature of cycling(no matter how many wheels) in a country where the infrastructure is designed

Sure. That's part of the problem. But I think that what you are describing is very likely to exacerbate the problem in So. Cal.
 
The Toecutter said:
When one rides in the street, the lesser the differential in speed between the cyclist and the automobile traffic, the safer the cyclist is.

You would think so, all things being equal. But they are seldom equal and from what I've been able to glean from the various statistics, motorcycles have a safety record that is far below that of bicycles. So I'm not convinced. I don't think trying to blend in with traffic using a small under-powered vehicle is a good general approach to safe travel. I think the safest approach is to reduce your exposure to high speed traffic as much as possible. I think you are safer dumping your bike every now and then at low speed on sidewalks than to incite road rage traveling on sidewalks at 25 mph and slowing traffic down on busy roads.
 
On the street, a rider must keep a safe distance from cars, because they don’t. So bikes are safer than trikes. They are the safest when their handling, braking and acceleration are better than other vehicles around.
 
A day later, the right side of my neck and right shoulder are still stiff sore. My left wrist is slightly sprained with about 50% of the mobility then it should have. The deep scrapes on my right forearm, left abdomen and left leg have stopped bleeding but are still raw and sensitive. However, I was curious as to why I crashed so I went back to the spot. Isn't far from where I live and had to go to the store anyway.

This is the way I was going. There were more shadows when I crashed because it was earlier in the morning. The sun hadn't come around yet.
c1.JPG

As I was checking out the crash site, a young couple happened to come by with their stroller. They are going the opposite way of the couple I passes just before I crashed, but at least it gives a visual image.
c3.JPG

So, before I crashed I was looking for a place to transition back to the sidewalk. It looks innocuous enough.
c7.JPG

Turns out the sidewalk is 2 inches (5 Cm) higher then the grass. It was hidden by the pine-straw. Makes me wonder if the slickness of the pine straw contributed in some way.

cpine straw.JPG

In any case, I must have hit it at a shallow angle not knowing that the sidewalk was that much higher then the grass.

As for the streets around here, they are full of stressed out people, going way too fast and not caring about bicyclists. Or when they see one, they simply become more angry because the bicycles is in the way. I do as many side streets as I can, but around here traffic is so bad that even they are full of wacked-out cagers racing around to get somewhere fast. And like most of us e-bike veterans I have had many cars buzz me, try to run me off the road, cut in front of me, turn in front of me, and even hit me.

So, not sure what the answer is, but I do know that staying home isn't it. So I will ride for the pain for now.

:D :bolt:
 
I havent had many crashes at all, even in the winter with no studded tires, riding 1.90 or 2.00 x 26 wheels. I ride every single day, rain and snow. My routine is to lift the front tire up. From the pictures you provided, the first two would be a lift the front wheel up type situation, even if its a normal more 90 degree angle getting back onto the sidewalk. Something like that wouldnt need much at all, even just a halfass attempt of lifting the front up a tad would have sufficed.

If I were you, I'd go to a wider wheel and try a slow speed trial run of exactly how you rode from the grass to the curb. Another trick of the trade is when your riding the sidewalk, is to get out onto the street when theres people on it, or if you see people further up and close by. If those are square curbs its easy getting off, but not quite so getting back on. Here we have the angled curbs, the older curbs have a steeper slope, everything else is more rounded and easy to go up and down at speed at a shallow angle.
 
Whatever you choose to ride, if you don't have it already, get suspension. If you continue to stick with two wheels, get full suspension, and get wide fat bike style rims/tires, something suited for going over bumpy terrain at high speed, to facilitate quickly and easily switching between street and sidewalk and grass. If you had 3.5" wide tires on a full suspension frame, your accident may not have happened.
 
Er, why are you riding on the sidewalk? It's way more dangerous to cycle on the sidewalk unless you are going walking speeds. This is the same reason I hate MUPS. Oblivious people walking hogging the trail.
Assuming it's legal for some reason to ride on sidewalks where you are, invest in a bell. Nothing is more amusing than people jumping out of their skin because they are oblivious and you "ding" up behind them. If it's illegal to be riding on sidewalks you need to gain some vehicular cycling skills. Recumbents have their own issues. I've had trikes and currently ride a SWB regularly. I'm not old or decrepit though I just like weird forms of transportation. Should you get a trike? Well maybe read about them and see if it's for you.
 
Sidewalks are used by: mothers and kids, dog walkers, teenagers looking at their cell phones and doing stupid things... All sort of situations that are unpredictables, and potential innocent victims.

A rider belongs on the street, bike paths, or mountain trails; in this order of increasing risk.
 
The Toecutter said:
Whatever you choose to ride, if you don't have it already, get suspension....

Got that part covered with the bike I crashed on this time. The bike I am riding now is a vintage 1997 ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension bike. The ride is quite plush compared to my front hub Trek that was my main workhorse until it fried a Hall sensor which in now replaced. I bought the ProFlex frame for $40 and started building it but got stalled when I got hit by a car 3 years ago. It is able to roll around now, but I am using my oversized Headway pack on the rear rack which must have contributed to the instability of the bike. Because I have not been able to work much since I got hit (and hurt my back lifting a year ago) money has been tight. I have not built a triangle battery pack for that bike yet. Guess it is time to get it done.[/quote]

The Toecutter said:
and get wide fat bike style rims/tires, something suited for going over bumpy terrain at high speed, to facilitate quickly and easily switching between street and sidewalk and grass. If you had 3.5" wide tires on a full suspension frame, your accident may not have happened.

Fat tires would have helped in this situation for sure. I have run tires between 1.5" and 2.5" over my 7 years of e-biking however I like the lithe nature of thinner tires due to the amount of fast reaction events of riding an e-bike around here.

:D :bolt:
 
markz said:
....... My routine is to lift the front tire up........
Yep, didn't pull up this time. Could have easily done that with the battery pack on the rear rack of this bike. In fact, when I first got this bike running a few months ago, I went to mail a package at a local post office. I was holding my bike with the throttle hand while taking the bag with the package off the handlebar grip on the other side. (It was a small package that I had put in a bag and draped over the left side grip.) Somehow I hit the throttle and the bike popped up on the rear wheel and was heading straight for the plate glass window in the front of the post office. Surprised, and somewhat panicked I released the throttle and was able to control the bike, now only on the rear wheel and guide it back down with one hand on the handlebar and one holding my package.
So, yea, pulling up would have surely helped. :oops:

:D :bolt:
 
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