ebike laws with trike build

i am considering building a trike using a bike trike conversion kit like

https://www.bicycledesigner.com/trike-parts/hollow-hub-trike-conversion-kit.html

this will solve many problems.

1. broken kickstands as the 3rd wheel will act as a kickstand

2. stability i will be building it as a lowrider and stretching it an additional foot or 2 using square steel tubing

http://www.bing.com/search?q=square+punched+tubing&form=APMCS1

3. spoke breakage the minimum size wheel that will support more than 36 spokes is 16 inch with 72 spokes.

4. chainsuck jams and broken shifter parts (derailer and hanger and bent chain) because i intend on having 3 motors.

1 for the speed limit of 20 mph or 32kph for you metric users

second for power (separate chain and cogs)

3rd for regen or dynamic braking witch will just be a super brute hub from electricrider.com.

i know the law limits to 750 watts but having 2 drives may make it 1500 but the catch is both drives can not be used at the same time it is physically impossible in the same way that you cant have both rear wheels drive without differential .

would the law have any problems with this setup?

i can see the police could say something if they see multiple motors but other than multiple motors would the officer only be able to go by the speed or aggressiveness of the take off i.e burning donuts or wheelieing so i should be safe then.

seeing the such wide range of travel on the adjustability of the rear cogs i see room for 3 maybe 4 cogs.

the hub motor just for regen i was wondering how regen is activated.

is it start working when you pull the break lever or does the throttle have to be pushed too?


i do scrap metal recycling and the only scrap yard that can pay me more and take electronics as tin is 30 miles away over some very steep hills that would destroy the derailer and the hanger otherwise

the only scrap yard locally does not take electronics as tin and even recently cracked down on stuff with excessive plastic, wood and glass and i suspect it is because the owner operates out of new york thereby making it federal jurisdiction

so the power would be needed to go up the steep hills and the regen or dynamic braking is to prevent burning up the brakes coming down the hills.

With steep hills I would get a big block mid drive motor , 1 . For enough power to get up those hills . 2. so you can change out sprockets along the drive train between the motor and rear wheel to experiment with the # of teeth that would work best for your route.
Then
A DD hub motor up front in the forks, the DD style of hub motor will give you the regen you want .
Along with a 4 piston disc front brake and 4 piston rears if you can .

In regards to cops , with a bike like that , where you get more and most often attention is if you have Gang Member Tattoo's , or are White and look like a Crack/Meath Head .

When on a Motorcycle I like to dress like a commuter with some other than black jacket and with bag on the tank, on the rear seat etc. A yellow vest would help with both safety being seen better by cars/trucks and letting the cops know you think about safety , I find that when I do this I get much less to no mean looks from all the L.E.O.'s .

ejonesss said:

the catch is both drives can not be used at the same time it is physically impossible

Click to expand...

Why is it physically impossible?

you cant have both rear wheels drive without differential .

Click to expand...

Sure you can. You just end up with scrub on one of the tires in a sharp enough turn.

Depending on the trike design, you can use two hubmotors, too (like my SB Cruiser and the Raine Trike).

would the law have any problems with this setup?

Click to expand...

That's up to the law in your area. If it doesn't specify you can have only one motor, then there's nothing illegal about that. If it specifies a power limit, and your trike can't exceed that power limit, then there's nothing illegal about that, either.

If your'e really concerned about legality, you'd have to check the law in your area to see what the very specific requirements and limits are, and then just make sure whatever you do doesn't exceed that.


Realistically, I expect it has a lot more to do with *how* you ride than *what* you ride, based on all my experiences here in Phoenix over the last decade+ with various ebikes and etrikes, including my "monster" SB Cruiser trike (link in signature).

ejonesss said:

i am considering building a trike using a bike trike conversion kit like
https://www.bicycledesigner.com/trike-parts/hollow-hub-trike-conversion-kit.html

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that this can be a very "tippy" trike, so you may have to slow to walking speed (or less) for any kind of turn, or end up on your side, even with the below:

2. stability i will be building it as a lowrider and stretching it an additional foot or 2 using square steel tubing

Click to expand...

If instead you build it with the deck lower than the axles, you can use larger diameter wheels (which will give you a better ride quality), like the Raine Trike I built for my brother (and like the larger Mk IV / V trailer).

You can do it with the trike kit, by modifying the kit so it all fits under the deck, and then using sprockets on the ends of the axles of the kit that then drive sprockets on the actual wheels via short chains that go up to them.

Then put all the batteries, etc., down as low as you can, as far out to the sides as you can, and put the seat down lower, something like chair height, so your mass is also lower down. See the layout of my SB Cruiser and Raine Trike for examples.

3. spoke breakage the minimum size wheel that will support more than 36 spokes is 16 inch with 72 spokes.

Click to expand...

Generally, I've found that if you use the right spoke gauge for the rim size you're using, so the spokes can be properly tensioned, they'll stay tight and won't break (most breakage is from loose spokes).

Usually that's 14/15 butted or doublebutted, for bicycle rims. For heavier duty rims 13/14 butted works.

Longer spokes (larger wheels) seem to be able to hold their tension better.

Massive amounts of spokes aren't necessary, just the right spokes with the right rims at the right tension.

FWIW, 16" wheels with 72 spokes will be very difficult and time consuming to build and tension evenly, and will probably require a 90-degree elbow for the valve so you can air up the tire; might be difficult or impossible to get a typical inflator head between them.

Even a 20" wheel with only 44 spokes is tough enough.

4. chainsuck jams and broken shifter parts (derailer and hanger and bent chain) because i intend on having 3 motors.

Click to expand...

Chainsuck is usually from bent chain links or corrosion/sticky links causing binding of the chain. Sometimes it's from the freewheel at the rear becoming sticky or unlubricated. Sometimes i'ts from damaged sprockets or chainrings, where the tips keep hold of the chain better than they should.

What caused yours?

On a trike you're unlikley to end up with bent derailers and hangers, as when you crash they don't hit the ground (if they are under the frame or on the rear triangle the kit is moutned to) like on a bike. (presumably yours bent due to ground impacts either from crashes or kickstand failures).

1 for the speed limit of 20 mph or 32kph for you metric users

second for power (separate chain and cogs)

Click to expand...

Why two systems, if not being used at the same time? At least several pounds and potentially hundreds of dollars for each, that's not needed, if they aren't going to be used together.

Just speed limit the system if that's required, and if you want different power levels, get a controller with mulitple assist levels, and change the level as required. Or just use the throttle as needed to give you more power or less, on a contorller where throttle controls current (torque) rather than speed.

3rd for regen or dynamic braking witch will just be a super brute hub from electricrider.com.

Click to expand...

Why waste all that weight and money for just a brake? Use it for the motor power it can supply, too. I'd guess at least $200-$300 and at least 20lbs...you could do a really good mechanical brake system on all three wheels for that price.

You'll still need a good mechanical brake that can handle the full braking load that motor normally takes, or else when the motor system fails you will lose all braking.

It can fail because the battery's BMS shuts off it's input, leaving nowhere for the regen current to go (and cutting power to the controller, too), or it can fail because of a hall sensor or controller problem, or a wiring or connector problem, etc. Any of those leaves you with zero braking without a sufficient mechanical brake.

I'd recommend the Avid BB7 mountain disc brake with the largest rotor you can get; it's done a great job on the heavy SB Cruiser. Traction of my front tire is my braking limit; if i had more traction I could brake even harder. Eventually planning to put them on the rear wheels too, after I rebuild the frame to accomodate them.

the hub motor just for regen i was wondering how regen is activated.
is it start working when you pull the break lever or does the throttle have to be pushed too?

Click to expand...

Entirely depends on what controller you get, and in some cases how you program the controller.

i do scrap metal recycling and the only scrap yard that can pay me more and take electronics as tin is 30 miles away over some very steep hills that would destroy the derailer and the hanger otherwise

Click to expand...

FWIW, the derailer and hanger shouldn't care about the hills and loads, unless you happen to be shifting under load a lot and something is misaligned badly enough to cause a problem, or your chain is bent/stickly/rusty, etc.

It's the sprockets in back and chainrings in front that take the loads, and the chain itself. As long as those are in good condition, and heavy duty enough for the loading they see, and the gearing is right, they should be fine, too. If the gearing (and/or chain wrap) is insufficient, the chain might slip, and wear both chain and tooth tips. If the tips are worn, the slip is more likely, and becomes a self-accelerating wear problem under those loads.

i suspect it is because the owner operates out of new york thereby making it federal jurisdiction

Click to expand...

Just curious:

What does operating out of "new york" (state? city?) have to do with federal jurisdiction?

And what does federal jurisdiction have to do with what a recycler takes in?

amberwolf said:

Keep in mind that this can be a very "tippy" trike, so you may have to slow to walking speed (or less) for any kind of turn, or end up on your side

Click to expand...

Any kind of turn including unplanned emergency turns.

amberwolf said:

you cant have both rear wheels drive without differential .

Click to expand...

Sure you can. You just end up with scrub on one of the tires in a sharp enough turn.

Click to expand...

I wonder if it would be reasonably easy to tie a pair of throttles together and then run them through some secondary proportioning device at the headset, that would balance the throttle outputs according to which way the handlebars are pointed? (I mean, I agree that you don't need a differential at all, but it might handle better at slow speeds with something like that.)

All of your problems are invented. Use some common sense!

Many of our bikes don't even have kickstands. The reality is that nearly any place you would want to get off your bike, there will be something to lean it against. But anyway If you're breaking kickstands then you're not trying since kickstands are readily available off the shelf for the lightest bicycles to the heaviest motorcycles. Get one appropriate for the weight of your bike.

Of course you can drive both rear wheels at the same time without a differential. Particularly in a straight line.

What you actually want is a regular bicycle with a decently sized hub motor. One motor. Multi motors are dumb unnecessary and overcomplicated. A high capacity hub motor can do everything you want, and be programmed for any power level. Silent, reliable and extremely low maintenance.

Ordinarily I would say ignore the law and go fast as it's safer and more fun to ride with traffic. But you need to use COMMON SENSE to get away with doing this. Watch for cops and fake pedal, slow down if necessary.

In any case you can ignore power limits with respect to legality. Nobody is ever going to care or test how much power your bicycle has.

FWIW, that particular trike kit will be very hard to install two hub motors to. A mid drive will get you low speed power better. You won't break the chain if you stay in low enough gear. All that breakage might be from riding in the wrong gear. A direct drive front hub motor can provide extra power on the hills, and regen. It would drive your trike most of the time, using the mid drive just on the hills when you need it. I liked putting the regen switch not on the brake handle, but a separate push button on the handlebars.

AW's trike uses a different type of axle, and CAN use rear hubmotors. And yes, in general, 15 mph is the top safe speed for delta trikes with high center of gravity. (most adult trikes)

You could modify that trike kit. Only one wheel drives from the pedals. leave it as is. cut off the other axle, and weld a fork on it. Then a front hub motor can be run on the left rear wheel. But it would be a lot simpler to just use one front hub, and one mid drive.

As for the law, ride normal, and most law in the US ignores you. Just depends on the local cops, and perhaps, how much they know you, and know you are cruising around all drugged up, or that you ride like food delivery guys, or whatever. I'm not assuming you are like that. Just saying, IF that is the case, the cops will hunt you down. I lived through that for about a decade in my 20's. If you look like a junk pile hauling ass, bet they stop you. Junk pile riding safe, ignored.

instead of shifting i would use 2 separate mid drive chain drive motors fixed to 1 speed and it would set up a escher impossible staircase where trying to run both motors they would fight each other.

also wiring up controllers to 1 throttle through a relay to ensure only 1 motor can run at the same time.

because technology moves faster than the law can keep up i am not sure if the law would carry a multi meter and ohms law or even a mobile dyno and i would hope they have to rely on speed, burning donuts and wheelies to trigger the suspicion.

amberwolf said:

ejonesss said:

the catch is both drives can not be used at the same time it is physically impossible

Click to expand...

Why is it physically impossible?

you cant have both rear wheels drive without differential .

Click to expand...

Sure you can. You just end up with scrub on one of the tires in a sharp enough turn.

Depending on the trike design, you can use two hubmotors, too (like my SB Cruiser and the Raine Trike).

would the law have any problems with this setup?

Click to expand...

That's up to the law in your area. If it doesn't specify you can have only one motor, then there's nothing illegal about that. If it specifies a power limit, and your trike can't exceed that power limit, then there's nothing illegal about that, either.

If your'e really concerned about legality, you'd have to check the law in your area to see what the very specific requirements and limits are, and then just make sure whatever you do doesn't exceed that.


Realistically, I expect it has a lot more to do with *how* you ride than *what* you ride, based on all my experiences here in Phoenix over the last decade+ with various ebikes and etrikes, including my "monster" SB Cruiser trike (link in signature).

Click to expand...

i also forgot to mention that the smaller wheels would give more power for on hills if you notice modern electric wheel chair scooters have very small wheels witch allow them to go up hills easier

i think the stability issue is about ratios older trikes have very narrow wheelbase and are high and short.

while i cant change the width i can lower it by using 16 inch wheels witch will put it lower to the ground and put square tubing to extend the connection between the frame and rear would compensate for the inability to widen the frame.

my chainsuck happens on the granny cog when under load and i suspect that because todays chains are made with a roller that rides on stamped protrustions sticking out of the side plates there is very little supporting the roller so it is easy for the roller to buckle or even oval under the load.

think of it like toilet paper holder verses paper towel holder.

toilet paper holder usually has a holder roller going all the way through where as the paper towel holder only has protrusions on each end to hold the roll.

when the rolls are empty and you do a karate chop to the toilet paper roll it may have a dent in the tube but it is still there


if you do the same chop to the paper towel tube it will be knocked out of the holder.

i think the best chains for ebike use would be like the toilet paper holder

where they would have another roller inside the roller so if the outer roller gets ovaled by the load it bites into the second roller but the force does not go through to the pin thereby in theory the chain does not lock up and wrap around the granny gear.

unfortunately such chains dont exist or if they do they are either new old stock being sold at really high prices or most bike shops dont carry them

i even tried bmx single speed chain for childs bike and that did not help.

the only one i did not try was garage door chin as some older garage doors being made of wood are very heavy and the chain has to resist that

you would be surprised how much torque you can get from a cyclone 48 volt motor at 750 watts when it is geared down to a 5:1 reduction it is enough to completely wrap the chain around the granny cog then take up all the slack on the bottom and pull the derailer past the stopping point and bend the aluminum hanger (fortunately the hangers are replaceable).

the problem is most stuff that most bike shops are cheap chinese stuff then marked up very high for profits.

2 systems so it eliminates the shifting requirement.

if you power the speed motor then you turn off the power motor and vise versa.

most of the chainsuck problems i had are caused because you need to have tensioned chain that if the jamming force exceeds the tension of the spring then the chain will wrap around the granny cog

i even tried connecting a bungy cord to the derailer and to the bike battery support frame to be the equiv of a heavier derailer spring and that worked for a while until one day that all broke.

using the regen motor as a motor takes a lot of battery power so it is really only good here as dynamic/regen braking


when ever something crosses state lines the jusridiction changes to federal.

have you ever noticed when a kidnapping happens and the victim is taken across state lines it becomes a federal offense?

i suspect that the scrap yard being owned by a new york company means that new york has environmental laws that considers electronics to be polluting since the new york company owns the local yard too then if they transport the electronics laden tin load to new york then the the feds are the ones asking why is your load of tin contaminated with old electronics boards and may charge them under federal environment laws.

however the yard that is 30 mile away in paxinos os only got one other yard in tower city and are both owned by the same person in pennsylvania so no transporting across state lines.

amberwolf said:

ejonesss said:

i am considering building a trike using a bike trike conversion kit like
https://www.bicycledesigner.com/trike-parts/hollow-hub-trike-conversion-kit.html

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that this can be a very "tippy" trike, so you may have to slow to walking speed (or less) for any kind of turn, or end up on your side, even with the below:

2. stability i will be building it as a lowrider and stretching it an additional foot or 2 using square steel tubing

Click to expand...

If instead you build it with the deck lower than the axles, you can use larger diameter wheels (which will give you a better ride quality), like the Raine Trike I built for my brother (and like the larger Mk IV / V trailer).

You can do it with the trike kit, by modifying the kit so it all fits under the deck, and then using sprockets on the ends of the axles of the kit that then drive sprockets on the actual wheels via short chains that go up to them.

Then put all the batteries, etc., down as low as you can, as far out to the sides as you can, and put the seat down lower, something like chair height, so your mass is also lower down. See the layout of my SB Cruiser and Raine Trike for examples.

3. spoke breakage the minimum size wheel that will support more than 36 spokes is 16 inch with 72 spokes.

Click to expand...

Generally, I've found that if you use the right spoke gauge for the rim size you're using, so the spokes can be properly tensioned, they'll stay tight and won't break (most breakage is from loose spokes).

Usually that's 14/15 butted or doublebutted, for bicycle rims. For heavier duty rims 13/14 butted works.

Longer spokes (larger wheels) seem to be able to hold their tension better.

Massive amounts of spokes aren't necessary, just the right spokes with the right rims at the right tension.

FWIW, 16" wheels with 72 spokes will be very difficult and time consuming to build and tension evenly, and will probably require a 90-degree elbow for the valve so you can air up the tire; might be difficult or impossible to get a typical inflator head between them.

Even a 20" wheel with only 44 spokes is tough enough.

4. chainsuck jams and broken shifter parts (derailer and hanger and bent chain) because i intend on having 3 motors.

Click to expand...

Chainsuck is usually from bent chain links or corrosion/sticky links causing binding of the chain. Sometimes it's from the freewheel at the rear becoming sticky or unlubricated. Sometimes i'ts from damaged sprockets or chainrings, where the tips keep hold of the chain better than they should.

What caused yours?

On a trike you're unlikley to end up with bent derailers and hangers, as when you crash they don't hit the ground (if they are under the frame or on the rear triangle the kit is moutned to) like on a bike. (presumably yours bent due to ground impacts either from crashes or kickstand failures).

1 for the speed limit of 20 mph or 32kph for you metric users

second for power (separate chain and cogs)

Click to expand...

Why two systems, if not being used at the same time? At least several pounds and potentially hundreds of dollars for each, that's not needed, if they aren't going to be used together.

Just speed limit the system if that's required, and if you want different power levels, get a controller with mulitple assist levels, and change the level as required. Or just use the throttle as needed to give you more power or less, on a contorller where throttle controls current (torque) rather than speed.

3rd for regen or dynamic braking witch will just be a super brute hub from electricrider.com.

Click to expand...

Why waste all that weight and money for just a brake? Use it for the motor power it can supply, too. I'd guess at least $200-$300 and at least 20lbs...you could do a really good mechanical brake system on all three wheels for that price.

You'll still need a good mechanical brake that can handle the full braking load that motor normally takes, or else when the motor system fails you will lose all braking.

It can fail because the battery's BMS shuts off it's input, leaving nowhere for the regen current to go (and cutting power to the controller, too), or it can fail because of a hall sensor or controller problem, or a wiring or connector problem, etc. Any of those leaves you with zero braking without a sufficient mechanical brake.

I'd recommend the Avid BB7 mountain disc brake with the largest rotor you can get; it's done a great job on the heavy SB Cruiser. Traction of my front tire is my braking limit; if i had more traction I could brake even harder. Eventually planning to put them on the rear wheels too, after I rebuild the frame to accomodate them.

the hub motor just for regen i was wondering how regen is activated.
is it start working when you pull the break lever or does the throttle have to be pushed too?

Click to expand...

Entirely depends on what controller you get, and in some cases how you program the controller.

i do scrap metal recycling and the only scrap yard that can pay me more and take electronics as tin is 30 miles away over some very steep hills that would destroy the derailer and the hanger otherwise

Click to expand...

FWIW, the derailer and hanger shouldn't care about the hills and loads, unless you happen to be shifting under load a lot and something is misaligned badly enough to cause a problem, or your chain is bent/stickly/rusty, etc.

It's the sprockets in back and chainrings in front that take the loads, and the chain itself. As long as those are in good condition, and heavy duty enough for the loading they see, and the gearing is right, they should be fine, too. If the gearing (and/or chain wrap) is insufficient, the chain might slip, and wear both chain and tooth tips. If the tips are worn, the slip is more likely, and becomes a self-accelerating wear problem under those loads.

i suspect it is because the owner operates out of new york thereby making it federal jurisdiction

Click to expand...

Just curious:

What does operating out of "new york" (state? city?) have to do with federal jurisdiction?

And what does federal jurisdiction have to do with what a recycler takes in?

Click to expand...

i would be using a

https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/stokemonkey-parts/sm-bracket.html

to mount one hub for regen

then i would use the cyclone motor for the power and i have the smaller bionyx motor i would mount in place of the coaster brake hub for the speed.

what makes you think drugs are involved?

i stay away from that junk.

maybe there are some stats i am unaware of like drug addicts desperate would go 30 miles to get a better price .

most likely drug addicts looking for their next fix would not go 30 miles as they need their fix now instead of several hours from now.

i suspect that would draw the attention is if someone had so much power that they could burn donuts or pulling wheelies and go so fast that a decently trained officer could tell that they are going faster than they should.

until we start hearing news of people being busted for illegally powerful ebikes i would have to think that the laws are political

dogman dan said:

FWIW, that particular trike kit will be very hard to install two hub motors to. A mid drive will get you low speed power better. You won't break the chain if you stay in low enough gear. All that breakage might be from riding in the wrong gear. A direct drive front hub motor can provide extra power on the hills, and regen. It would drive your trike most of the time, using the mid drive just on the hills when you need it. I liked putting the regen switch not on the brake handle, but a separate push button on the handlebars.

AW's trike uses a different type of axle, and CAN use rear hubmotors. And yes, in general, 15 mph is the top safe speed for delta trikes with high center of gravity. (most adult trikes)

You could modify that trike kit. Only one wheel drives from the pedals. leave it as is. cut off the other axle, and weld a fork on it. Then a front hub motor can be run on the left rear wheel. But it would be a lot simpler to just use one front hub, and one mid drive.

As for the law, ride normal, and most law in the US ignores you. Just depends on the local cops, and perhaps, how much they know you, and know you are cruising around all drugged up, or that you ride like food delivery guys, or whatever. I'm not assuming you are like that. Just saying, IF that is the case, the cops will hunt you down. I lived through that for about a decade in my 20's. If you look like a junk pile hauling ass, bet they stop you. Junk pile riding safe, ignored.

Click to expand...

Early on in this thread you said you are concerned about attention from Cops.

Here in California most people who are doing recycling are doing it because they are drug addicts .
Or in the Case of Stolen Copper Wire because of easy money for the thief .

Crack/Meth Heads have loads of energy to burn off , so they don't mind digging around in the trash for cans and bottles,
and the more serious ones have no problem stealing anything they can that they can sell to the Recycle Yards.
I lived just a few units down from a Crack/Meth Head a few years back, you would not believe the expensive things he had in the back of his truck each morning , things that people paid allot of money for ( not him ) , that within a few hours ended up at the Metal Recycle Yards for cash for his addiction .
A few units on the other side of me was a family from South America , many times I would see the wife stripping the plastic coating off copper wire , while the husband was off all hours of the day and night getting the copper wiring .

LEO's have their eye on most Crack/Meth Heads , since those people are most often well known persons to the local LEO's
So
By default it is most likely that your local LEO is going to have their eyes on you unless / until they know who you are and your lifestyle.

ejonesss said:

what makes you think drugs are involved?

i stay away from that junk.

until we start hearing news of people being busted for illegally powerful ebike

Click to expand...

i was asking about the ebike laws.

in the united states the law sais 750 watts and i have seen some youtube videos and google searches say that the more power can allow them to go faster.

as well as multiple motors adding up to the total watts.

so i was asking what triggers a suspicion of illegal ebike power.

if just for the ebike to cause them to say anything if all the police has to go by is people burning donuts or the bike rides by too fast for a normal ebike or they doing wheelies.

It is very easy to have a 750 watt operating system, no mater how much the motor is rated for, if motor says a higher voltage then with a Cycle Analyst you can adjust the max amount of amps for the size voltage battery pack you have.
Or program the controller if it is a Infineon or Infineon Clone , need a computer and programing cable when you buy the controller.

I do it ( with the Cycle Analyst ) , all the time when switching different size battery packs and also adjust the low voltage cut off voltage as well .

What you are hauling and how you look and how you are riding / obeying traffic laws , will be over 90% of what any LEO will look at / be wondering about, not if your motor is using 751 watts or more.

Rule # 1 Obey All of your Local Traffic Laws . Simple

ejonesss said:

i also forgot to mention that the smaller wheels would give more power for on hills

Click to expand...

Wheel size does not make any difference to the power available.

It *does* change the speed/torque ratio, so a larger wheel will go faster with less torque for the same power, and a smaller wheel will go slower with more torque for the same power.

if you notice modern electric wheel chair scooters have very small wheels witch allow them to go up hills easier

Click to expand...

I think that here and in other places, you're making unwarranted assumptions that are likely to affect your design and build in undesirable ways.

The small wheels are actually more for keeping the COG very low, so they're less likely to tip over under various conditions, and making them easier to transport.

They change their torque by changing what gearbox is on the motor driving them, not by the wheel size. Ones with larger wheels (for better ride quality and easier getting up edges of pavement/etc.) use a gearbox with a different ratio in them for the same motor used with smaller wheels (and sometimes a larger physical motor capable of more power).

i think the stability issue is about ratios older trikes have very narrow wheelbase and are high and short.

Click to expand...

More unwarranted assumptions....

It's not "older trikes".

It's specific trike designs.

There are trikes of many different years that have varying designs, some of which are long and low, some of which are short and low, some of which are short and high, some of which are long and high, some narrow, some wide, and varying degrees of all of these.

while i cant change the width i can lower it by using 16 inch wheels witch will put it lower to the ground and put square tubing to extend the connection between the frame and rear would compensate for the inability to widen the frame.

Click to expand...

Of course you can change the width.

Either extend the axle (if it's a live-axle design) to mount the wheels to, or extend the frame sideways to add dropouts to to put wheels in to drive from an extended transaxle/etc.

Or a number of other methods, including building the frame from scratch. (at least the part that the wheels attach to, and carries the load).

You can even use the same width frame, but angle the rear wheels outward (camber) so the contact patches are farther apart, effectively making it wider as far as stability is concerned (like the Raine Trike does). At least one of the Sun trikes does this too.


In general, a longer, lower, trike *can* be more stable, but this is not necessarily true. CrazyBike2, turned into a trike with the same kit that was later used on Delta Tripper and SB Cruiser, was extremely *unstable*, even though it was about the same length as SB Cruiser is, and even lower more laid back rider position, etc. But SB Cruiser is very stable. Exactly why these are the case is a number of things, some of which I'm not even certain of.


Keep in mind those tiny wheels are going to make even small defects in teh road surface seem large, and it's going to be a really rough ride on bad pavement. Even the ~22" wheel diameter I have on the rear of SB Cruiser is pretty rough on some of the roads around here.

my chainsuck happens on the granny cog when under load and i suspect that because todays chains are made with a roller that rides on stamped protrustions sticking out of the side plates

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Again, assumptions.

It's not "today's chains".

It's "basic chains".

You can get many kinds of chains, there are even threads about the different kinds here on the forum, and various bike forums and sites like Sheldon Brown's.

So if you're having problems specifically caused by basic chains, you can fix that by buying better-designed/made chains.


But the chainsuck is probably caused by worn/damaged sprockets which wear and damage the chains, and/or are worn and damaged by the worn/damaged chains, all of which is accelerated by the torque placed on them. Some of these high torque middrives can wear chains and sprockets out in only a few dozen miles, and the chain and both sprockets and chainrings have to all be replaced at the same time or the one worn or damaged part then wears and damages the other parts.

there is very little supporting the roller so it is easy for the roller to buckle or even oval under the load.

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The roller itself doesn't buckle under the load. If it did that enough to cause chainsuck, it'd be permanent damage, and the chain wouldn't roll any more, and it'd always do it regardless of gear you're in, especially over the derailer idler rollers because of their much smaller diameter.

The sideplates might bend or buckle if there's a sideways torque, but that's also usually a permanent damage, and also would happen regardless of gear you're in. It might not be permanent if you're using a springy enough steel for the sideplates.

using the regen motor as a motor takes a lot of battery power so it is really only good here as dynamic/regen braking

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It takes the same amount of battery power that any other motor takes, to get the same power out, assuming the systems are "geared" the same for the motor's specific setup, and the systems are the right voltage/current for the specific motor and the specific demands.

If you're running it outside it's more efficient RPM zone then it will turn more of the input power into heat instead of work, but the same is true of any other motor, including your cyclones.

If you need to change gearing / ratios while riding, then a DD hubmotor won't be as efficient as a motor not in the wheel, that runs thru the shiftable-gear drivetrain.

But if you're not changing gears regardless (which seems to be why you want two completely separate motor systems), then the DD hubmotor can be just as efficient as long as you put it in the right size wheel for the speed and torque you want out of it, vs the voltage and current you intend to supply it, as long as it is capable of the power level you're after in the first place.

You might want to check out the http://ebikes.ca/simulator , read the entire page so you know what everything does and how it works, and then play with different systems to see what they do under different conditions and wheel sizes, etc.

ejonesss said:

i would be using a
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/stokemonkey-parts/sm-bracket.html
to mount one hub for regen

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If you do that, you cannot have any freewheels in the system between that motor and the wheel it is braking, or it cannot do any braking of the wheel.

So the chain from the wheels to that motor will always be moving, as long as the trike is moving, even if you are just coasting.

The chain will be backdriven by the wheel force, especially during braking, and this is going to complicate your chain problems, especially tensioning it and keeping it on the sprockets. Chainsuck from damaged/worn chain/sprockets or misalignment/etc. will be able to happen on *both* sides of the chainline, top and bottom.


The motor itself will also always be spinning (just like if it was in a wheel) as long as the trike is moving.

then i would use the cyclone motor for the power and i have the smaller bionyx motor i would mount in place of the coaster brake hub for the speed.

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If by "in place of the coaster brake hub" means you will put it in a wheel directly, I think you would be better off mounting the motor you wish to use as a motor in that SM bracket in the frame, and mount the motor you wish to use for regen braking directly in the wheel (preferably the front wheel, but any wheel is better than trying to brake via chain--if you think the problems you have with chains are bad now, wait till you try that out).

ejonesss said:

i was asking about the ebike laws.

in the united states the law sais 750 watts

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Nope.

That's a CPSC regulation regarding manufacturers selling ebikes.

Has nothing to do with what's allowed to be used in various states/etc.

It's up to your individual state, county, city, etc., to define what anything is, and what is allowed, and when and where and how it is allowed to be used, or if they are allowed at all.

So *you* must check with *your* locality for those regulations and laws, to find out what is "legal" in your area.

Since you haven't said exactly where you are, and exactly where you ride, we can't help you find out.

ejonesss said:

so i was asking what triggers a suspicion of illegal ebike power.

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Depends on the person watching you, and how much they happen to know about bikes, ebikes, etc., and whether they give a crap or not.

Some of them may not care about ebike stuff at all, but simply hate all bicycles and cyclists of any kind, and stop every one they feel like, and find *something* wrong just so they can feel justified in whatever they choose to do to them.

I live in central florida. I have passed a cop at 50 mph in traffic on my 5kw mtb. He pulled up behind me in stopped traffic, and asked what endorsements I needed for the bike. This is the only cop in 12,000 miles of riding to ask me any questions.

I told him, 'from what I understand, a valid driver's license'. Which I have. He said, 'fair enough' , then asked about top speed and range stuff. He lastly stated that his job and concern was for my safety. I have a bright strobing front light, bright rear light, helmet, hi-vis vest, and I ride respectfully, usually behind the slowest driver in the right lane only. That was it.

It's not so much what you are riding, but how you are riding. If you look like you are going to be a lot of paperwork for the cop, he will then be very interested in you, in the way you don't want. Due to the nature of the trike, you will very likely not be able to do the things I can do, on what I was riding that day. Again, check with local laws, but I think you're good as long as you keep it slow and safe.

No need to state anything more hypertoric. No need.

hypertoric_amplituhedron said:

50 mph in traffic on my 5kw mtb.

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This falls inline with doing the ole statement of doing wheelies and w.o.t. what else would happen, pretty self explanatory.
Aside from the 50mph on a bicycle frame thats not meant for that kind of stress, atleast you werent doing wheelies or other nefarious acts. But it all falls inline, more curiosity then anything else from the fuzz. I've had a fuzz snap a few pictures of my ebike locked up outside a McPukes. I did not care, I was busy doing a cross word. But I've been asked the usual questions. How much does it cost, how far does it go, how long does it take to charge.... you know the usuals.

https://youtu.be/6-kxjvLpCAg?t=15

Yes
Did I read this right?
50mph on MTB ???
With what kind of brakes.??
On MTB frame
even the best MTB. brakes are not design for this crazy speed.
markz
You are right, MTB frame not design for this kind of speed.

Stress on bicycle frame
Bicycle brakes
If running bicycle rims and tires, could lead to problems when hitting a pot hole at speed.

Same debate as always. Too each their own.

I wonder if the fuzz ran his name. Could also be the fuzz had previous run ins, or "seen him/her around" riding.
Could also have been the fuzz had a tummy full of donuts and were in a good mood, or could have been shift change time.
All the possibilities of what made 50mph slide.
A game I wont play.

Oh dear, hahaha. I very gradually tested this bike in incremental steps before ever riding like that. If the road is too rough for a hardtail, then I shouldn't be going that fast anyways. It keeps me in check for the right reasons. Florida has the best road conditions in the whole nation. I know where they are, since I rode the same sections almost every day. There is no stress to a bike frame if there are only smooth roads all around.

I have a saint 4-piston caliper on an ice-tech 203 rotor, and regen on the back. It stops from 50mph sufficiently enough, but you do have to keep your follow distance. The frame is steel, but sketchy w/o a rear disc brake. I wish it had one. You have to be careful on it. It stops quite well, but not as well as a car or motorcycle. Also, I have MTX39 rims on it.

I don't ride the bike like that anymore, because it is dangerous, and there were in fact enough close calls to stop me from using it that way. I came to my senses in time. The fuzz never asked for any ID at all. If it's not a gas powered bike, then it's too alien of a technology to be worth showing up in court for.