Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

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ColinC   1 mW

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Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 03 2019 10:02pm

Hello,

Ordered a BBSHD kit + goodies from Luna over the weekend, but I'm wanting to run a 48v batt pack with at least 15-16aH and Luna has no options available.

I've read here and there about Unit Pack Power being a decent choice. Looks like they have an eBay store shipping out of Texas https://www.ebay.com/str/unitpackpower with a 48v 17aH model priced at $423 using 'LG/Samsung 3.7v 3500mAh 3C cells,' as well as a similar model priced at $535 using 'Sanyo NCR18650 GA 3.7V 3500mAH 10A 3C cells.'

I've read good things about the Sanyo cells, but not sure they're worth $90 more than the LG/Samsung ones.

'Thoughts? Other 48v sellers/suppliers to consider?

Thanks for your time/help-
Colin

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by dogman dan » Dec 04 2019 7:24am

Multiple batteries? I've been very satisfied with Luna's 12ah wolf pack. Its hanging in there fine despite some pretty high amps use. I love the way this one is all sealed up in epoxy, virtually water proof, shake proof, drop it proof.

If that's enough for most rides, you could do something else for just a few ah more. Like a 14s 5ah lipo pack to get you the last miles on the long rides.

Perhaps EM3ev if you really need one that is larger.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by E-HP » Dec 04 2019 10:33am

ColinC wrote:
Dec 03 2019 10:02pm

I've read here and there about Unit Pack Power being a decent choice. Looks like they have an eBay store shipping out of Texas https://www.ebay.com/str/unitpackpower with a 48v 17aH model priced at $423 using 'LG/Samsung 3.7v 3500mAh 3C cells,' as well as a similar model priced at $535 using 'Sanyo NCR18650 GA 3.7V 3500mAH 10A 3C cells.'
Maybe links to the actual packs instead of the page would help. The only pack I see that's $535 is the 52 volt pack on that page.,

BTW, welcome to the forum. :thumb:

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 04 2019 11:55am

Thanks for the welcome :)

Sorry...here are the links to the UPP packs I was talking about:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253670295625?_ ... OON.R1.TR1 (48v 17.5Ah Samsung ICR18650 35E cells for $432)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/U-P-P-48V-17-5 ... Swq-ddA1Vg (48v 17.5Ah Sanyo NCR18650 GA 3C cells for $515)

dogman dan makes a good point though about multiple batteries, and I've thought about this option too. It's difficult estimating how much Ah I'll need for my typical rides, and I was trying to avoid a situation where I plunk down $500 for a 12-13Ah batt and then find out I really need 16-17Ah and end up needing to buy a 2nd battery, rather than paying for a bit more up front for a larger capacity one.

My rides on this fatbike are only 15-20 miles, but I'm carrying a fair amount of weight and the riding conditions are rough and hilly (hence the uncertainty). My rides are mostly off-road/trails, about 1/3 mostly flat and 2/3 hills. Usually around 1000’ elev gain/loss during the ride with the steepest portions around 5-7% grade (but not sustained over great distances). I’m 6-1 and 215, + 30 for the bike + 15-20 for backpack/rack of photo gear, water, field guides, etc. So probably around 275 lbs before the added weight of the BBSHD kit. I’m a “slow and steady” rider since I’m usually out doing fieldwork/wildlife observation/photography, so I don’t need/want great speed or rapid acceleration. I wouldn’t be doing a lot of winter/snow riding with this setup, but I do try to get out year-round, so there will be a few rides in the 30s/40s degF (I’d probably try to rig some kind of insulating cover for the battery for these colder rides).

Right now Luna doesn't have anything in 48v in stock. But em3ev has a couple of 48v configurations for its 'Jumbo Shark' model with some Black Friday discounting (https://em3ev.com/shop/em3ev-48v-13s5p- ... rrency=USD:

48v 14.3Ah using Panasonic PF cells for $342
48v 14.8Ah using LG HG2 cells for $422
48v 17Ah using Samsung 35E cells for $410

I missed that 17Ah option when I was checking out em3ev's models earlier, so maybe that's the easy choice right there since Paul's/em3ev reputation seems to be pretty stellar from what I've read. 'Would like to have the USB charging port, but that's not a deal-breaker by any means.

Thoughts?
Last edited by ColinC on Dec 05 2019 12:28am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 04 2019 12:18pm

A 17ah pack would have less stress if use the same it also how you use or abused it. Do you ride wot or ? Hills ect
.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by bakaneko » Dec 04 2019 1:30pm

Many different perspective here but the general rule I "like" to follow is 25-33% of capacity should be your normal power consumption. So, if I want to go 30mph or 1000W, I will need a 3-4 kWh battery of course that is ideal. Getting a battery that big is expensive but some can do it. The main point is you do not want to be stressing out your batteries for normal cruising (based on your use case).

From EM3EV, while the Samsung 35E has 100wH more its max continuous discharge is only 25A which is ~1000W and if you take 25-33% of that that is 250-333W which is like 15-17 mph. On the other hand, the LG HG2 has 44A max continuous which is ~2000W (rounding up here) so your 25-33% is like 500-700W which is like 21-26MPH. That is a huge difference.

Again, my view is you never want to go max continuous amps for cruising speed, your battery gonna suffer. Also get as large a battery as you can afford of course and charge to 85-90% rarely below 15%.


Panasonic PF: 46.8V nominal, 14.3Ah, ~669Whrs.
Samsung 30Q: 46.8V nominal, 14.8Ah, ~693Whrs.
LG HG2: 46.8V nominal 14.8Ah, ~693Whrs.
Samsung 35E: 46.8V nominal, 17.0Ah, ~796Whrs.

Panasonic PF: ~29A Continuous, 38A Max Burst Current
Samsung 30Q: ~38A Continuous, 55A Max Burst Current
LG HG2: ~ 44A Continuous, 55A Max Burst Current
Samsung 35E: ~25A Continuous, 34A Max Burst Current

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 04 2019 2:23pm

This is really helpful info bakaneko, thank you.

With the off-road terrain I'm usually biking in (two-track access roads, cattle ruts, sometimes neither) and my staying slow enough to be gawking around for wildlife, I'm averaging 8-10mph tops. I do plan on "pedal assisting" most if not all of these rides, but my speeds will never be high.

Two main reasons I'm installing the BBSHD kit on this bike: cut down on the overall time of my trips when time/daylight is short (esp. speeding up the bike in/bike out portions so I can get to and stay in the more remote stuff where I'm doing the wildlife photography/fieldwork); and 2. helping out my 52yo 'engine' so I'm not so tapped out after longer rides.

Isn't the 30Q cell/configuration Luna recommends for that "ludicrous" higher-watt controller? Particularly with me planning on doing a fair amount of pedal-assist, it didn't seem like I was needing some of these higher-power setups/configurations. The only place where higher power seems to be relevant for my riding are the brief hilly sections, particularly considering the weight of me/gear/ride. But those sections are relatively short and I do plan on pedal-assisting, and I could really care less how fast I'm so long as I'm making forward progress. On the steepest/sketchier sections I'll do what I've been doing already--get off and push the bike through that section until I can more easily ride again.

This is also why I thought a more "close to OEM" 48v batt made more sense than a 52v. Probably not a huge difference either way, but it seems I don't need the additional power, and I'm more concerned about that power creating drivetrain issues/breakage back in the sticks than I am getting a few more mph during the ride.

Am I thinking straight on this bearing in mind what I've described as my kind of riding with this bike, or have I misunderstood/not taken some things into consideration?

Thanks again for the help-

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by E-HP » Dec 04 2019 3:22pm

ColinC wrote:
Dec 04 2019 2:23pm
Particularly with me planning on doing a fair amount of pedal-assist, it didn't seem like I was needing some of these higher-power setups/configurations.
Always buy more battery than you think you need, that way when you realize you need it, you have it.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by Hickbeard » Dec 04 2019 3:27pm


ColinC wrote:Hello,

I've read good things about the Sanyo cells, but not sure they're worth $90 more than the LG/Samsung ones.

Colin
I've just bought 70 of these so will let you know what they're like when they arrive.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by MAXIMUM_AMPS » Dec 04 2019 3:36pm

Solid advice in this thread, an oversized, understressed battery is a reliable one.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 04 2019 6:22pm

OK, so an 'oversized' battery is the way to go. But defining 'size' is where I'm still a bit confused. Looking at the em3ev 48v choices/configurations bakaneko included in his previous post, which of those would be the most 'oversized' for what I've described as my riding?

I thought this was pretty straightforward with the Samsung 35E coming out on top with its 796whrs. But based on what bakaneko explained about the max continuous discharge, etc., now that's looking less than clear. I really don't what my 'normal power consumption' is for the riding I've described doing with this bike, so it's difficult to apply that rule about 25-33% of capacity, etc.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by E-HP » Dec 04 2019 6:41pm

ColinC wrote:
Dec 04 2019 6:22pm
OK, so an 'oversized' battery is the way to go. But defining 'size' is where I'm still a bit confused. Looking at the em3ev 48v choices/configurations bakaneko included in his previous post, which of those would be the most 'oversized' for what I've described as my riding?

I thought this was pretty straightforward with the Samsung 35E coming out on top with its 796whrs. But based on what bakaneko explained about the max continuous discharge, etc., now that's looking less than clear. I really don't what my 'normal power consumption' is for the riding I've described doing with this bike, so it's difficult to apply that rule about 25-33% of capacity, etc.
Are you still referring to the two packs you mentioned? Those packs are 13S5P. The 35E cells are good for 8 amps continuous, 13 amps max. So the cells in the pack could comfortably supply 40 amps continuous with 65 amps peak. The BMS is rated at 30 amps, so conservative, and that being the case, the cells should be fairly protected from too high a discharge rate, lots of built in cushion. Is close to 1500watts continuous, 3000 watt peak, good enough for a BBSHD? If so, I'd go for the 35E cells, for the additional range.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 04 2019 6:54pm

Sorry for the confusion. I started the thread specifying those UPP packs, but as I dug around in posting some responses, I discovered those 48v packs from EM3ev I listed in my 955am post (and that bakaneko listed the specs on in his/her 1130am post), so those are the ones I'm considering at this point rather than the UPP ones. It seems to me that the 48v 17Ah/Samsung 35E model for $410 is the best choice of that group for the riding I've described?

One other question: choice of charger? I'd like to get one of the advanced chargers rather than stock one. Not that pricey Satiator, but either the Luna advanced (https://lunacycle.com/luna-charger-48v- ... e-charger/ or EM3ev's model. The Luna is on sale for $85 and has a display and more control options, but I have no idea whether the two are comparable performance/reliability-wise. I can't find a specific page/specs on the EM3ev advanced charger...it's just listed as a drop-down menu choice as '54.6V 5A Charger (with 90/100% switch)' for $70.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by E-HP » Dec 04 2019 7:56pm

ColinC wrote:
Dec 04 2019 6:54pm

One other question: choice of charger? I'd like to get one of the advanced chargers rather than stock one. Not that pricey Satiator, but either the Luna advanced (https://lunacycle.com/luna-charger-48v- ... e-charger/ or EM3ev's model. The Luna is on sale for $85 and has a display and more control options, but I have no idea whether the two are comparable performance/reliability-wise. I can't find a specific page/specs on the EM3ev advanced charger...it's just listed as a drop-down menu choice as '54.6V 5A Charger (with 90/100% switch)' for $70.
Link for your comparison:
https://em3ev.com/shop/54v6-charger/

Both can be set to charge at 90%, the Luna also can charge to 80%
Both do 5 amps
Luna has a display, as you pointed out

Luna costs a little more ($85 vs $70), but the same price shipped

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by 2old » Dec 04 2019 8:19pm

Don't know if this will help or cloud the issue, but my BBS02 with 52V, 10 ah Luna battery easily ascends a 3,000', 8 mile climb and has for four years as well as powering a 1000w, 48V rear hub errand bike. I'm 6'1', 180 with 10 or so pounds of backpack. My 36V Haiblke-Yamaha hardtail used 50% of its battery on yesterday's ride to the snow (rare in the "OC" - the same ride). I think a 52V, 12 ah battery will serve you well, but don't have the experience of some posters.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by bakaneko » Dec 04 2019 9:16pm

To me and get others opinion on this, if I had to chose between a battery pack with 100wH more and 25A max continuous discharge versus one with 44A max continuous discharge, I would definitely get the one with 44A max continuous discharge. That 100wH might seem like more range but the 44A max continuous discharge means less stress to battery and less voltage sag which effectively negate the 100wH of the other battery. These prices from EM3EV seem good.

Everyone saids they want to go slow and take it easy on the battery. Yeah, that is gonna last like 1 month or less then you are going to slam it.

In terms of the charger, while Im not a fan of Luna, the option for 80-100% is nice and then the option for 1-5A is good too not sure if the EM3EV is just on option at 5A. To me, you get more "range" with a slow charge 1-2A then if you were to charge it at 5A. Having that option and you can experiment if it is true or if the range gain is not significant.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by MikeSSS » Dec 04 2019 10:44pm

Met a guy a week ago or so. He was riding a Bike E, sort of a recumbent, from before ebike days. It had a direct drive rear hub, the hub was large diameter and wide. His battery was the one in the link below, a QZF 48v, 20ah battery. He was riding pretty fast compared to my riding. His longest ride was 70 miles, that really impressed me. My longest on epower has been 27, though I've done American centuries on pedal only power.

My next battery will probably be this QZF or something similar. "Problem" is my Luna shark 48v 14ah battery is over three years old and works just fine, so I don't need a new battery. I'm using the Luna charger set on 90%, it is charging my 13s, 4p GA cell battery to 52v. This older charger does not have an amp adjustment, if it did I'd be using 1 amp.

A recent 15.3 mile ride used 25% battery capacity, 3.5ah, based on initial voltage and final voltage and tables relating voltage to percent charge. Point is my battery is oversized for my use and that works just fine. Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

https://www.amazon.com/QZF-Battery-Wate ... ods&sr=1-5

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 05 2019 12:31am

bakaneko wrote:
Dec 04 2019 9:16pm
[snip] That 100wH might seem like more range but the 44A max continuous discharge means less stress to battery and less voltage sag which effectively negate the 100wH of the other battery. These prices from EM3EV seem good.

Everyone saids they want to go slow and take it easy on the battery. Yeah, that is gonna last like 1 month or less then you are going to slam it.
Well...considering the rough terrain I'm biking, if I 'slam it' I'm likely to have more problems then a drained battery, so I'm pretty confident I'll be keeping my speed/throttle in check ;)

But I understand the point you're making, and I appreciate your making it since I wouldn't have considered that factor otherwise.

Do others agree/see it this way (higher max continuous discharge offsetting/negating the 100wH difference)? Seems like either battery would be a good choice matched with that Luna advanced charger.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 06 2019 12:50pm

So I've been reading up a bit in these forums and elsewhere (e.g. this helpful post/set of calculations from Matador viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85629#p1252830, and it seems that a key factor in this whole "continuous amp draw" issue is the configuration of the battery pack, right?

Considering the Samsung 30Q battery as an example (data sheet showing 15A max continuous discharge per cell), EM3ev's 13S5P configuration https://em3ev.com/shop/em3ev-48v-13s5p- ... rrency=USD is going to give you 15A more max continuous discharge out of the box compared to, say, Luna Wolf's 14S4P https://lunacycle.com/luna-wolf-v2-52v-battery-pack/ simply based on the configuration.

So all other things being equal, wouldn't you want to be looking for 5P, 6P or 7P config packs to get that max continuous discharge? Or am I missing something?

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by bakaneko » Dec 06 2019 3:19pm

Yes, bigger is better even if your motor/controller is no where near the max continuous amp draw of the battery pack. that being said, there is also a cost aspect where that extra P or cell quality is too much. dood, just get the LG H2 cells that was rated at 20A each cell. That pack from EM3EV would be 100A on paper and your draw will be nowhere even close to that from what you mentioned, which means a healthy battery for many many years with good charging capacity management.

The Samsung 35e is only 8A, which is 40A at pack level. 20A is common draw so you can see it take a good portion of that capacity. Also, EM3ev list modest max amp draw as they mentioned which is what you should try to limit yourself to with those batteries since they know best the exact optimal numbers (and their BMS is limited to 60A I think). For me, I always try to do the 25-33% rule so 100A = 25-33A for max continuous of that LG H2 pack.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 07 2019 11:42am

I appreciate the advice bakaneko; I think the LG H2 pack makes sense. I was just trying to confirm my understanding of the whole pack configuration issue as that relates to the amp draw issue. I'm seeing very few of the longer/thinner 'shark' style packs that have the amp draw capacity being recommended here; much easier to find that capacity in 'block' or triangle-shape packs--presumably because those allow for the 6P, 7P and more parallel configurations that give you the amp capacity even if you're not using a high-amp cell like the H2?

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by bakaneko » Dec 07 2019 7:14pm

yes double the amps so lower amp draw on each cell. the other thing you should consider is that you can always buy another pack (same cells and config) and parallel the two packs. imo, the cell quality with the LG H2 would be high enough that down the line paralleling two different capacity packs will not be that big of an issue.

so, i would think of it like this. my budget now is $420 that means I can only get the 5P one for now. but I know in 1 year I might be able to get another pack if I like the bike enough and want more range. as oppose to spending more for a 7P one now and then a year down the line you cannot afford to get another of the same pack. or it could be you can see yourself being able to afford another 7P one a year on or sooner. there are two places to mount the battery imo in the frame and on top tube. i know a lot of folks dont like top tube but to me it looks cool and like a motor bike.

i hope that makes sense. i always like modular and affordable approach.

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by jpacadd » Dec 28 2019 11:51pm

ColinC wrote:
Dec 03 2019 10:02pm
Hello,

Ordered a BBSHD kit + goodies from Luna over the weekend, but I'm wanting to run a 48v batt pack with at least 15-16aH and Luna has no options available.

I've read here and there about Unit Pack Power being a decent choice. Looks like they have an eBay store shipping out of Texas https://www.ebay.com/str/unitpackpower with a 48v 17aH model priced at $423 using 'LG/Samsung 3.7v 3500mAh 3C cells,' as well as a similar model priced at $535 using 'Sanyo NCR18650 GA 3.7V 3500mAH 10A 3C cells.'

I've read good things about the Sanyo cells, but not sure they're worth $90 more than the LG/Samsung ones.

'Thoughts? Other 48v sellers/suppliers to consider?

Thanks for your time/help-
Colin
I bought the 17.5ah UPP for my first ebike build back in July. I am very happy with the battery, and also with the followup support when I have asked questions regarding my next build which may or may not include them.
July 2019 first build: 2009 Giant Trance X3 with stock BBSHD 52V
Next build: Just bought used 2009 Giant Trance X4, likely BBSHD also, maybe hotter controller/battery, undecided
Lots of other fun toys: Wildcat X, Xtrainer, 1978 KE100, Hypermotard 1100

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by ColinC » Dec 29 2019 12:21pm

Hey thanks for the reply. I ended up ordering the Sanyo GA version of their 17.5an battery selling on eBay for around $535 + tax. This shipped out of their Texas warehouse, and I received it in 3 days.

I've only had a couple of rides with it so far, and I have no prior experience with ebikes or their batteries to measure this one against, but it seems like a solid battery. The build quality is excellent. My only concern is getting it to slide into position on the frame mount is finicky...not sure why it doesn't slide into the correct position more easily. I had to remove one of the water bottle mounting bolts on the metal track (even though that's what the instructions specify) since otherwise it would not easily slide into position. Maybe there's a technique I'm missing on how to get these 'shark style' batteries to slide in more easily.

I like the USB charging port, although I wished it was at the rear (or even the front) of the battery so you didn't have the plug sticking out towards the side and likely to be hit by my legs when riding. I did order some inexpensive USB 90degree angle connectors https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073G ... UTF8&psc=1that will help with this...

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Re: Reputable/reliable 48v batt sellers for BBSHD build

Post by jpacadd » Jan 03 2020 1:27am

ColinC wrote:
Dec 29 2019 12:21pm
I like the USB charging port, although I wished it was at the rear (or even the front) of the battery so you didn't have the plug sticking out towards the side and likely to be hit by my legs when riding. I did order some inexpensive USB 90degree angle connectors https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073G ... UTF8&psc=1that will help with this...
Not sure which display you have, but my display has a USB port on my handlebars. It is the 850C which I think I have, has the USB port, which is why I chose it.
July 2019 first build: 2009 Giant Trance X3 with stock BBSHD 52V
Next build: Just bought used 2009 Giant Trance X4, likely BBSHD also, maybe hotter controller/battery, undecided
Lots of other fun toys: Wildcat X, Xtrainer, 1978 KE100, Hypermotard 1100

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