Choice between 5304(need mod from 24to26") or 5305(avai

There is one day left before I order my kit, but I need to take a decision AND I NEED YOUR HELP!

See below what opins i have:

lane one:
-5305 ready to use and available :?

Lane two:
-5304(actually on a 24" wheel and only have one gear.. not 6 or 7 like most popular.
choosing it would mean I have to forget about the multiple speeds of the rear wheel...
And I will need to pay someone to adapt it to a 26" wheel...


My argument:

The 5304 is one of the most popular and I believe it's because it's a good trade off between torque, speed and efficiency. It has more kph per volt(0.97) than the 5305 (0.76)

I heard also that the 5305 have not much more torque than the 5304?... comparing to the speed lost.

I would think the 5305 is more efficient if used at higher voltage like 48 to 72V than the 5304 used at 36-48V

In real world does the 5305 would hit 35-40mph like I need with 60-72V(forgetting graph and theory) ?

thanks in advance for your support guys :wink:

Doc :|

Doc, Unless you ride steep hills, weight a ton or carry loads I would not go for the 05. Rebuilding the rim with top quality components for about $100 is a good idea as explained in the current thread here 'X5 availability' Also you must cobble together a torque arm.

I think your assessment of the three choices is accurate -- I chose 04 and ride hills.

You might want to look at this
http://tinyurl.com/rge2a
http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/electric-bike-motor-p-163.html

Al Tidalforce M750X / Point One Lipo

IMO
5304 24" if only running 48 volts.
5305 if needed for steep hills and running 72 volts or more.

My 5304 with a 3 speed freewheel perfectly fits the width of my standard MTB dropouts.

The 5305/26" should hit about 35mph at 72 volts. I only remember one member here with a 5305 -- I think a rider from San Francisco. His posts can be found here somewhere...

Well, the 5305 seems to have not been so popular...
With a 72V controller and 72V battery, 35mph seems to be the max I can get in better conditions. I have not many hill to climb, and i think by having alot of battery to get 72V to have a decent speed, the weight of those will decrease the overall efficiency of the kit..

I have difficult to take my decision... the 5304 availlable have no cassete and only one gear, and the hub is centered on the axle.

If i order the the 5304 without spoke and 26" rim installed, I just hope it will be possible to me to found some strong spoke here or to tell to Zev to send me those seperatly... I heard that it need some special spoke on hum motor and need a special rim.. and will not fit on conventional rim... you see the complicated situation i could get by choosing the 5304..

There is only one complete 5305 left and one 5304 on a 24" weel and no cassette.. i dont want to lose any chance to order one...

......Any used rear 5304 in good condition for sale around here?..



Doc :?

8) I finally ordered the last X5 rear motor availlable in Canada...

I choosed the 5305, and forgot to take the 5304 on 24" wheel.

I'm pretty confident that I will have fun with that BRUTE hub motor. 72V for 35mph is enough for me . My frient got 30 battery 12V 5Ah from UPS at I will try to do something with that.

I will post some pics and results.

Doc

I choosed the 5305, and forgot to take the 5304 on 24" wheel.

I'm pretty confident that I will have fun with that BRUTE hub motor. 72V for 35mph is enough for me .

Click to expand...

Congrats! I look forward to any performance stats/opinions you have since I have the 5304/24". My stock 72V 35A controller's worked perfectly for me at 84 peak volts, so if yours' holds out to, 84 volts (including sag) should get you to 40mph. Or you could mod the controller with the better 100V or 150V FETs and push the voltage to 90 or more.

Thanks Xyster :wink: for your advices. I will probably receive the kit(in the begiging of the next week.)

For sure I will test it and post and share resultS ! As an electronic, physic, electro-mechanic technician, I will love doing that ...


I just wonder if it could be possible for me to found a center tap on the 5305 winding to get more speed in the case I would need some more...

mooding a X5 5305 to a 5305/5302.5.. ah haaaa!

I've never seen winding of X5 series.. I would like soon..!

Maybe I would get same as 5302 to 5303... but I wonder if it would be possible to divide each winding into two equal seperated winding and put them in parallel ?

Maybe you could answer me about that?

Doc

As far as I can tell from pictures, the stock Xlyte motor has the windings in a Wye configuration. It wouldn't be that hard to change it to a Delta configuration with 3 relays or a big switch.

This would be the equivalent of going from 5 turns to something like 2 turns or less. I'm not sure exactly what it works out to. It would be a very big jump, though. It might be useful for going really fast on a downhill stretch.

mooding a X5 5305 to a 5305/5302.5.. ah haaaa!

I've never seen winding of X5 series.. I would like soon..!

Maybe I would get same as 5302 to 5303... but I wonder if it would be possible to divide each winding into two equal seperated winding and put them in parallel ?

Maybe you could answer me about that?

Click to expand...

That would be most cool to do. I always thought it too bad the x5 didn't have multi-winding options like the 4xx series.

I'm not nearly as well-versed in motor/controller mechanics as some of the other people here -- I'm more of the battery specialist -- so I'll leave your question to others to answer.

I understand that the dual-winding 4xx series motors are less efficient in both settings than their single-winding cousins. Why this is, I don't know.

xyster said:

I understand that the dual-winding 4xx series motors are less efficient in both settings than their single-winding cousins. Why this is, I don't know.

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I don't know about that. my 4012 option is a near perfect match to the calculator on ebikes.com

It doesn't match on the 408, but thats because the 408 option is using 2/3rds of the 4012's wire, instead of the normal thickness of the 408's wire. that seems to kill it's top speed and power, but the efficancy seems to be actualy a little higher.

Center tapping a 530X would be insane a X5/x2.5 would be rideable at sane speeds, and probably capable of 60+mph

Doctorbass said:

8) I finally ordered the last X5 rear motor availlable in Canada...

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Yo, waytago!

Can't wait to see that one!

Lol.. the X5302 belongs in a 20" wheel.. really.

I had mine up to 65 km/h on 48v !!!

I'm not sure what you get when you switch from wye to delta. It might be a 2:1 thing. A 5302-1/2 ?

!!


Good news!!

Oh hooooOOO! it seem that my order is in Quebec!!... 2.1km from my house and 3 from me now...(my job)

A big box is waiting for me! directly from Vancouver!(ebike.ca)...... from China

I can'T wait anymore!

1h15 left at my job.....

8)

Doc

I can'T wait anymore!

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Show of hands: besides me, anybody else do package-tracking races when you've got multiple deliveries on their way?
:lol:

Me. Can't help it, wonders of the internet. Gotta know.
Mike

Nimbuzz said:

Doc, Unless you ride steep hills, weight a ton or carry loads I would not go for the 05.

Al Tidalforce M750X / Point One Lipo

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Hey NB;

How steep is steep? (San. Fran. steep?)

What kind of speed can you carry up your mountain?

I'm 145lbs, 10% body fat so don't think my weight is an issue.

Loads on the bike? (Trailer with a couple of kayaks + gear = approx 100lbs?)

If Dr. Bass is hitting approx. 50kph (30mph) with 72V, 26" wheels and has a bunch of hill climbing ability what do you think? Thee whom goes over the mountain.


Greg

gwsaltspring said:

Nimbuzz said:

Doc, Unless you ride steep hills, weight a ton or carry loads I would not go for the 05.

Al Tidalforce M750X / Point One Lipo

Click to expand...

Hey NB;

How steep is steep? (San. Fran. steep?)

What kind of speed can you carry up your mountain?

I'm 145lbs, 10% body fat so don't think my weight is an issue.

Loads on the bike? (Trailer with a couple of kayaks + gear = approx 100lbs?)

If Dr. Bass is hitting approx. 50kph (30mph) with 72V, 26" wheels and has a bunch of hill climbing ability what do you think? Thee whom goes over the mountain.


Greg

Click to expand...

My choice is definitly done.. -----the 5305----- AND I AM VERY VERY VERY HAPPY with it!

I get a decent top speed and awsome torque!! i dont want more!... well.. from now

next step trying to mod it to 5305/5302.5.. like the 408/411 dual speed

humm 5302.5 at 72V.. probably that would kill me.. or take me to the hospital.. lol


or giving me a face lifting with speed of wind at this speed.. :x
Doc

So Doc what kind of hills are you climbing? 50 kph seems plenty fast to me especially if I could go about 30 up hills.

Greg

Same to you salt spring -- what kind of speed and hills are you doing on your "Clyte front hub 406/26" Schwalbe Marathon tires, 20A controller, 36V12Ah NiMH ?"

Thanks,
Al
5304 36v soon to be 48 or 72v

Unfortunately I don't have a speedo or an inclinometer so I can't really answer the question.

What has happened is that I am going to move and the set up I currently run isn't very good at the hills where I will be living shortly. Since I can't go out and try a 5304 on island I am attempting to get a sense of what others who are climbing hills are using. Most of the hills aren't too bad I guess and I would rather go a bit slower on the flat in exchange for hill climbing ability

The 5304 seems a popular motor I guess I should just order one and be done with it. There, I have answered my own question.

Cheers Greg

The 5304 seems a popular motor I guess I should just order one and be done with it. There, I have answered my own question.

Click to expand...

Feed the 5304 or 5305 ~2500 watts for climbing 10-15% grades at ~20mph with or without pedaling. Steeper, paved inclines are few and far between, but if you need to climb >15% hills, feed the x5's 4000 watts or more. The biggest issue with hubmotors and hills is having sufficient power on tap to quickly accelerate through the zone of serious inefficiency (below about 10mph) where without sufficient power, on steep inclines the hubmotor could get bogged-down and not be of much help.

Thanks X.

So here is where I get to reveal my lack of electrical knowledge.

V x A = Watts?

72V x 35A = 2520W Is this where the ~2500 comes from?

I've seen others discussing usable watts, what does this imply?

It would seem that the 72V 12Ah battery pack combined with a 5304 set up I was comtemplating should meet my needs for the 4.5 mile ride from town to home.

Currently my 406 36V 12Ah set up gives me about an 18-20 mile range.

Roughly 2 trips to town and back between charges. (It just so happens that my current home is 4.5 miles the otherside of town and the hills are not as steep.)

Xyster I see you are using a 24" wheel, it doesn't seem to me that it makes that big of a difference on the simulator (ebike.ca) but then again what do I know.

Perhaps Marty is correct after all, I should just stick to Architecture.

Cheers Greg

gwsaltspring said:

Thanks X.

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De nada.

gwsaltspring said:

So here is where I get to reveal my lack of electrical knowledge.

Click to expand...

And ability to learn! Besides, most all of us are neophytes compared to The Fechmaster. And he's probably a relative electrical dunce compared to, say....Nikola Tesla.

gwsaltspring said:

V x A = Watts?

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Yes. Volts X Amps = Watts. Watts is a measure of "power". Watt-hours is a measure of "energy" -- amount of power available over a given time. The more energy your battery pack holds, the farther (and potentially faster) you can go.

gwsaltspring said:

72V x 35A = 2520W Is this where the ~2500 comes from?

Click to expand...

Yes. That's basically my system and so I'm familiar with it's abilities and limitations.

gwsaltspring said:

I've seen others discussing usable watts, what does this imply?

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Efficiency. Power In (from the battery) X efficiency = Power Out (actual power to the pavement). The hubmotor simulator is an excellent tool for seeing how electrical efficiency losses decrease real-life performance potential. The 2500w/4000w suggestions were based on power-in (basically, your battery voltage X your controller amperage assuming your batteries can handle supplying the controller's rated amperage).

gwsaltspring said:

It would seem that the 72V 12Ah battery pack combined with a 5304 set up I was comtemplating should meet my needs for the 4.5 mile ride from town to home.

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For a short ride like that, yes 6, 12ah SLAs should be plenty -- and also plenty heavy. You could probably complete that ride just fine with 7 or 8 ah SLAs. Remember, SLA's need to be plugged in immediately after riding else they'll suffer significant degradation. In practice, if the bike is being used as a commuter, this often means plugging-in while at work. Other chemistries do not have this limitation.

gwsaltspring said:

Xyster I see you are using a 24" wheel, it doesn't seem to me that it makes that big of a difference on the simulator (ebike.ca) but then again what do I know.

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That was purposeful -- I wanted as much thrust as possible for climbing hills (thrust is similar to torque, but changes with wheel diameter whereas torque remains constant with wheel diameter). The calculation is simple. By choosing a 24" wheel instead of a 26", I get:
26/24 = 1.08 times more thrust (about 8% more) and conversely an 8% slower top speed. Since real-world top speed is 44mph with a 5304 in a 24" wheel at 80 volts, this was a welcome trade-off.

gwsaltspring said:

Perhaps Marty is correct after all, I should just stick to Architecture.

Cheers Greg

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So you're an Architect. Well, to me that means you should be able to design one very cool looking and functioning ebike!

Thanks to you once again Xyster!

It seems that you are running a pretty close set up to what I have been dancing around building next. (Though I think I will let the Li batteries (and Puma) alone for the moment, too big of a distraction and not that readily achievable for me.)

I may have mislead you into thinking I was planning on using SLA, this is not the case, just way to heavy for me.

I have an additional question for you though:

Did you start out with 24" wheels on the bike or did this come after the fact? From looking at your before and after photos, I would guess that the original wheels were 26" and given that you don't use a rear brake.... but just thought I would ask.

Well look at this I would seem to have hijacked a thread :lol:

And as far as designing or building a "cool looking bike" I guess only time will tell on that front, but aesthetics are important to me. I just can't help myself.

Cheers Greg