If you had $3500 to $4000

SNOW JW

100 µW
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Messages
9
New here so Thanks for all the info I've been reading non-stop for hrs on past post.
Ok so I'm mechanically inclined can rebuild fix anything on a combustion engine & wiring but electric is a new world I'm fascinated in but there's tons to learn.

So with that said I'm want to spend 3k to 4k on Used or build one from parts. I ride on 4000+ acres of private land In Montana from mountains tight single track to prairie grass checking livestock.
Wants. Enduro style frame as light as possible but not carbon (if it breaks I need to tig weld to fix)

Rear or mid drive? I want Sur Ron type power 5000w ish but the ability to tone it down to 1000w when im tooling around the house or I take it to our small town for a parts run & be able to pedal if needed. If the Sur Ron had pedal ability & didn't look like a dirt bike I'd probably buy it.

Would like to stay with fat tires for soft ground or snow so I can air down.

Battery volts & AH? Would like to get aprox 30 miles of range

Is regenerative braking worth it or out of my price range?

Sorry for the post being so long winded I'm sure allot of this has been covered here & there in post so thanks for the help.
 
SNOW JW said:
Rear or mid drive? I want Run Sun type power but the ability to tone it down to 1000w when im tooling around the house or I take it to our small town for a parts run & be able to pedal if needed.
If you are in a mountainous area, go mid drive. It will mean you can't regen, but having the gearing will help in the hills.
 
Find a full suspension bike you like and purchase either a BBS02 or for even more power a BBSHD and a good battery. I did that with a hardtail and BBS02 about four years ago and it's still going strong, climbing well and capable og 30 mph. Tested it out on a 17 mile, 2000' ascent trip a couple of days ago and it still had 50% of its 52V, 10 ah battery based on SOC. BTW, total expense was about $2000.
 
Sur ron fits the bill, check used ones but keep the build date fairly recent.
Sur ron isn't perfect, but anything else will be far more imperfect. Enduro frame is a joke for offroading and inclinations.
 
I wished the Sur Ron wasn't so flashy & dirtbike like if I was to ever take it to visit family to tool around in town and ride a trail or two I'm worried it would draw attention even if you ride slow the looks give it away. At my place it would never be an issue so I'm torn.
 
This is what I would do:

https://motoredbikes.com/resources/montana-motorized-bicycle-laws.27/

[youtube]bPSaEaYEK88[/youtube]

https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-pedal-system/
I would go for the 54t cog easy. Maybe even 60t.
After a while you can research registering it as a moped or not and/or putting the pegs on, depending on the amount of bother the cops give you.
 
You won't be able to run that much watts mid drive, ( 5000) unless its virtually a motorcycle conversion. Which you might consider with that much dough to spend. Put an electric motor on an old dual sport motorcycle, quite possibly just rear hub motor. That way its is a fatter tire, but not a delicate one. And street legal, insured and everything.

But the other way would be just to get a very very good MTB, and give it the 5000w rear hub treatment. Look to Mad Rhino for the example of how its done best.

Look for removable dropouts in back, so you can lengthen it, and make the rear tire a motorcycle or moped tire and rim. The fatter tire should fit once you make the thing longer. You weld, so you could weld an entire new swingarm too.

Funny, but just yesterday I went the other way, I had been thinking fat tire bike because of so much sand where I am. Instead I bought a honda 100 for about half the price I would have spent on a good fat bike with mid drive. Still keeping my lower power off road mtb. I can ride it on the single track trails locally and still be legal. But now I can ride sandy or extremely rough roads that have kicked my ass on the bikes. Just hard to ride when its bottomless dust or sand, or up too steep hills that are nothing but baseball size rocks.

You might stick with gas for the ranch, but then build a nice lower power mid drive MTB for town and single track riding when its not snow. Then you can run a normal, decent quality mtb with mid drive and 2.3 inch mtb tires. This can cost about half your current budget, about $1500 for a very good battery and a mid drive kit. Plus a decent used mtb for another thou. This way you are legal in town. But if nobody cares in town, ride the homemade motorcycle with pedals on it, as MR does with no problems.
 
An old enduro motorcycle isn't great offroad, adding an underpowered hub will just make it much worse and end up costing similar to a Sur-ron which people have licensed.
If you're going to go through the motions of doing a motorcycle to EV project then the added cost of a modern bike and decent drive system like the QS3000 makes sense.

"Enduro" framed ebikes are just as obvious as the Sur-ron. Sure they have pedals but not in a useful way.
Spend a bit more and the new Boxxbike is a possibility. Twice the power and similar weight to the Sur-ron but much more bicycle-like.
 
One of the members on a few of the FB ebike forums will be bringing them stateside. Looks like 6-7000 complete. Might be able to it cheaper DIY (I could).
 
Well,, I never said underpowered hub, or a junk motorcycle made in 1972. But hell yeah, a modern DH bike costing nearly all of his budget will ride real nice. But with very high power, it won't be actually legal to ride in town.

If the budget was bigger, I'd have said get the Zero motorcycle.

The question was,,, what would I do. After the e bike burned my house down, ebikes did lose some of the appeal with me. But in any case, in general,, what I have always done is have many tools that each do a job very very well. Rather than one thing that is not so great at all jobs. Which is why I bought the second motorcycle last week.

Right now my tool box is a 90 mph gas scooter for fast riding on street, a 30 mph 2000w electric longtail for slower riding on street, a 1000w MTB for riding single track where motorcycles are not allowed, a 100cc dirt bike for riding where the 1000w is not enough, and where motorcycles are allowed, a pedal only mtb for riding singletrack, and a pedal only road bike. None of these items will do all, but each of them does one thing very very well. One reason I just bought the honda 100, is I wanted a fat bike with motor. It was going to cost me a couple thou or more, with a good front shock on it. The honda was $800, and has the same width tire. It easily rides up the sandy roads that have always kicked my e bikes butts. It will also not need charging by generator, when I take the RV up to the mountains.

But what the OP should do is buy, or build his own higher power rear hub, using a very good MTB, and likely it can be ridden in town despite being illegal. You can always ride a high power bike sensibly, when in town. Or just do a lower power, but mid drive, fat bike.
 
There is about a zillion brands of Chinese motors. But its clearly not the bosch, or other huge name brand or they would say so.

Looks like a good choice that will do all your needs except for going fast, like a semi legal big rear hub motor bike would do. ES won't approve, because its not home built of course.

The main thing is it fits your needs, doing one or two of the jobs you wanted done very well. It should kick ass when its half way between snow and mud this spring. And still be fun to ride all summer.
 
$1500-2000 you can build a really good ebike. Spending $3-4k makes it all beefed up and draws unwanted attention. For me, the point of an ebike it to have fun and save money.
 
I have converted 4 bikes now to e-bikes, Because I don't have anywhere near $ 3,500-$ 4000 for a bike.
After all the work I have done , If I had the kind of money you have I would just buy a quality e-bike that is last years model at a discount .

If you want to do allot of single track then there would be one clear choice for me ( used or discounted because they are over your budget new )
The 2019 Specialized Turbo Kenevo .
However
If most of your riding is not single track , then I would get a good 3 inch tire or Fat tire bike and put a mid drive onto that .
The BBSHD has been mentioned , but there are other options . In Eugene Oregon Mike makes the Lightning Rods Small or Big Block motor, it has the advantage of using a controller that is out side of the motor so you can have even more power than the BBSHD .
Also look at the Cyclone 4.8 Kw Frame and Motor Kit , around $ 1k , then add front and rear suspension and wheels and drive train.
 
I did not read down enough posts to see this before writing my above post.

Did you buy this at Bass Pro Shops ? or the other outdoor shop ?

I saw those a few days ago at BPS , What kind of Warranty do they have that BPS will in reality Honor and how long is it for ?

SNOW JW said:
Well I picked up a 1000 W mid drive for my City-Trail fun http://reconebikes.com/ranger/ & I think I will save up for a Sur Ron for the on the ranch stuff.

Does anyone know what brand motor the Recon Ranger 1000W has??
 
From a legal standpoint it would be safer to build a high powered hub motor based bike if you want to go over 20 mph and still not have to register the bike. Montana has some interesting laws in that currently a moped with 2 hp that doesn't go faster than 30 mph does not have to be registered while an ebike is not allowed to exceed 20 mph. The tricky thing with the moped is that the law is a bit ambiguous about shifting and a mid-drive could possibly be interpreted as not fitting the moped definition:

61-8-102.(2)(n) "Moped" means:

a vehicle equipped with two or three wheels, foot pedals to permit muscular propulsion, and an independent power source providing a maximum of 2 brake horsepower. The power source may not be capable of propelling the device, unassisted, at a speed exceeding 30 miles an hour on a level surface. The device must be equipped with a power drive system that functions directly or automatically only and does not require clutching or shifting by the operator after the drive system is engaged.

61-8-102.(2)(b) "Bicycle" means:

(i) a vehicle propelled solely by human power on which any person may ride, irrespective of the number of wheels, except scooters, wheelchairs, and similar devices; or

(ii) a vehicle on which a person may ride that has two tandem wheels and an electric motor capable of propelling the vehicle and a rider who weighs 170 pounds no faster than 20 miles an hour on a paved, level surface.

There is further ambiguity in the law because they define the moped in terms of horsepower and not wattage. If it were me, I'd probably build an overpowered moped and limit my top speed to 30 mph and my watts to 1500 or so when I ride it in town. My experience has been that cops pay far more attention to how you operate a bike than what its technical specs are. So you probably wouldn't even have to limit the speed and watts if you can exhibit reasonable restraint. Also, many ebike systems make it easy to electronically limit the bike's top speed. My power cuts out at 28 mph to conform to AZ law - though I doubt any law enforcement will ever do anything to verify this fact.

It seems that the Montana legislature may be revisiting their e-bike laws as well with an eye toward the three class system. Take a look at the link below. So things might change. But the fact that mopeds no longer have to be registered since a 2015 law change seems like a nice (but not perfect) loophole to me.

https://nbcmontana.com/news/local/lawmakers-reclassify-mopeds-as-bicycles

https://leg.mt.gov/content/Committees/Interim/2019-2020/Transportation/Committee-Topics/Autonomous-Electric/e-bikes-montana.pdf
 
For Reference , I have done 3 rear hub motor conversions and my latest conversion , a mid drive.
I live in a Hilly area in a Valley and I prefer ...
The Simple rear hub for flat and less than 4 % steep , and short hills like less than 1/2 mile long.
and
The Mid Drive for anything over 5% steep and for longer climbs .

Just yesterday I took the mid drive up a hill that was 11-13 % ( Medcaf Rd. ) and the Hub motor just would not have done that hill .
In fact I did not go all the way up since my controller only goes up to 30 amps and the 2 inner / larger size cogs are just out of a chain like that would work, Probably could have gone up all the way, but after owning 3 hub motors I just do not strain motors like other people might do.

I like rear hubs , but not for Hills / Mountains .



wturber said:
From a legal standpoint it would be safer to build a high powered hub motor based bike if you want to go over 20 mph and still not have to register the bike.
 
SNOW JW said:
Well I picked up a 1000 W mid drive for my City-Trail fun http://reconebikes.com/ranger/ & I think I will save up for a Sur Ron for the on the ranch stuff.

Does anyone know what brand motor the Recon Ranger 1000W has??
maybe i'm just missing it but i only see cmplete bikes there, not separate drives.

the drives i do see on the bikes are built into the frames and require that specific frame design at the bb area to mount that drive. i don't know which one they are but they look kinda like the bafang m500/600/etc types.

if your city-trail fun bike does not have that specific fframe design, you cannot install that drive on it without machining your own new section of frame to do it with, and cutting up your bike frame and installing the whole new section of frame.
 
ScooterMan101 said:
I like rear hubs , but not for Hills / Mountains .

wturber said:
From a legal standpoint it would be safer to build a high powered hub motor based bike if you want to go over 20 mph and still not have to register the bike.

The OP was talking about building a 5kw bike. Others here seem to think that hub motors with that kind of power go up hills pretty well. I wouldn't know firsthand since I only run about 1000 watts of battery power. And my bike does require significant pedal assist to get up the 10-15% hills I encounter. Is your experience based on 5kw hub motors? It sounds like it is based on bikes more like mine.
 
There is no comparison.

5.2kw hub vs 7.2kw hub vs sur ron hill climb:
[youtube]r39lqNSmcio[/youtube]
 
ScooterMan101 said:
For Reference , I have done 3 rear hub motor conversions and my latest conversion , a mid drive.
I live in a Hilly area in a Valley and I prefer ...
The Simple rear hub for flat and less than 4-5 % steep short hills , like less than 1/2 mile long.
and
The Mid Drive for anything over 5% steep and for longer climbs .

Just yesterday I took the mid drive up a hill that was 11-13 % ( Metcalf Rd. ) , the Hub motor just would not have done that hill without melting / overheating to the point to cause failure .
In fact I did not go all the way up since my controller only goes up to 30 amps and the 2 inner / larger size cogs are just out of a chain line that would work, meaning too much sideways strain on the chain if I were to use those largest two cogs. I Probably could have gone up all the way, but after owning 3 hub motors I pay close attention to a motor when it starts to lug down .

I like rear hubs , but not for Hills or Mountains .



wturber said:
From a legal standpoint it would be safer to build a high powered hub motor based bike if you want to go over 20 mph and still not have to register the bike.
 
Yes I am talking about lower power hub motors , 2 geared hubs and my latest a low power DD that is 15 pounds in weight , all of which I run at under 1400 watts, mostly under 750 watts, but living in a hilly area when going up hills they get up to 1k - 1.4 k watts to go up.



wturber said:
The OP was talking about building a 5kw bike. Others here seem to think that hub motors with that kind of power go up hills pretty well. I wouldn't know firsthand since I only run about 1000 watts of battery power. And my bike does require significant pedal assist to get up the 10-15% hills I encounter. Is your experience based on 5kw hub motors? It sounds like it is based on bikes more like mine.
 
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