This is my first post to this forum so thank you ahead for any assistance. I have looked and cannot find if there is a motor made for the application I am looking for. I am building a single wheel hiking cart and would like to use a geared hub motor. The trouble is I really would like to not use a geared chain system just a hub motor. I think the gear ratio on Ebike hub motors will be way to high and even the wheelbarrow motors I believe would be too high if they could even be adapted to a 26” wheel due to the size difference between a wheelbarrow tire and a 26” wheel. I am not familiar with Ebikes at all so I am sorry if this is an amateur question. I have looked online but haven’t found what I am looking for but with my very limited knowledge on the subject I may have seen what I am looking for and not even known it. Thanks again for any help.
Electric hiking cart hub motor
- Thread starter Hiker
- Start date
i don't know if these have your answer, but there are some threads here about hiking carts, mostly in this list
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=hik*+*motor*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=firstpost&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
which unfortunately also has lots of irrelevant threads.
but there is also a thread about a doulbe-reduction hubmotor that would probably work:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92124&hilit=gear%2A
however the larger wheel you put it in, the faster the motor is making the wheel go, and the harder the motor has to work to do it.
if you would like to see / understand more about this problem, you can go to http://ebikes.ca/simulator and read the entire page to learn how it works and what to do with it, then play with different systems to see how they behave under the conditions you will use them under, and compare to see if any of them will do what you want. that doulbe reduction motor is listed there so you can play wiht it too.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=hik*+*motor*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=firstpost&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
which unfortunately also has lots of irrelevant threads.
but there is also a thread about a doulbe-reduction hubmotor that would probably work:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92124&hilit=gear%2A
however the larger wheel you put it in, the faster the motor is making the wheel go, and the harder the motor has to work to do it.
if you would like to see / understand more about this problem, you can go to http://ebikes.ca/simulator and read the entire page to learn how it works and what to do with it, then play with different systems to see how they behave under the conditions you will use them under, and compare to see if any of them will do what you want. that doulbe reduction motor is listed there so you can play wiht it too.
thank you for the response. I had read most of the links you posted. I had not seen the dual reduction motor in your link and to be honest I don’t really understand the calculator you linked to. I think the dual reduction motor you posted may be the ticket if my calculations are right. If someone could confirm my calculations on it would be much appreciated. There may be other variables that I am unaware of. From what you I understand the motor rpm is 340 and with the 16:1 total gear reduction the output should be 21.25+- rpm. A 26” tire has a circumference of 81.6. So if that is calculated out it should be a 1735” per minute which should be 1.64 mph?
that motor rpm is probably the outer casing rpm, not the inner rotor speed, so it probably already includes the gearing ratios.
fwiw, to make speed calculations you need at least the motor rpm, wheel size the motor is in, and then what voltage you're running it at, and hten what throttle amount, and then what terrain it's on (slope, etc), and what hte current limit of the controller is. you may also need to know how much voltage sag the battery has at the load you're putting on it, if it has significant voltage drop under loads like some do.
that's why i linked to the simulator, becuase it does all this for you, if you read the whole page first to see what each setting is for, etc, then simply experiment with it.
there is also a thread here on es about it, which is linked on the simulator page itself, with discussion about how it works and vairous features as they get added to it.
for instance, this simulation using all the default settings except picking the g310 standard winding, chanign from kph to mph, and changing from 100w human power to zero, gives this
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph
which shows a 20mph full throttle speed on the flats.
to get 1.6mph you must set the throttle to around 10% of full.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=true&throt=10
or use a system voltage of less, like 24v, and thorttle of 15.5%
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=15.5&batt=B2412SLA
or even less system voltage, like 12v (though i don't know of a controller that will work at that voltage), and a throttle of 31%
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=31&batt=cust_12_0.2_8
on a hill of say, 10% slope, the last one above only gets 0.3mph
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=100&batt=cust_12_0.2_8&grade=10
even at full throttle.
the first setup above on a 10% slope only gets 9mph under all the same setup conditions otherwise, also full throttle
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&grade=10
the same one with only 10% throttle on that slope only goes 1.1mph on hte hill.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=10&grade=10
the next one above on that hill would only go 0.5mph at that same 15% throttle, and only 4.8mph at full throttle, and at full throttle it would overheat in only about 6 minutes.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=15.5&batt=B2412SLA&grade=10
but changing the wheel size to a 12" wheel means it'll do 1.6mph at around 38% throttle and never overheat though it will end up being hotter than boiling water and the 24v 8ah sla battery dies in only a couple of miles
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=39&batt=B2412SLA&grade=10&wheel=12i
doing that same wheel change to the initial default setup with a 36v 23ah lithium battery gives 1.6mph at 26% throttle
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&wheel=12i&grade=10&throt=26, reduces the motor temperature a tiny bit, and increases range by several times.
all of those are wtiha weight of around 220lbs, so if you're only carrying say 100lbs it greatly decreases the power needed to go uphill, making throtle only 21% and range more than doulbe the above, with a much much lower motor temperature tahts only kinda hot instead of past boiling.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&wheel=12i&grade=10&throt=21&mass=50
so lots of things affects the final outcome....
fwiw, to make speed calculations you need at least the motor rpm, wheel size the motor is in, and then what voltage you're running it at, and hten what throttle amount, and then what terrain it's on (slope, etc), and what hte current limit of the controller is. you may also need to know how much voltage sag the battery has at the load you're putting on it, if it has significant voltage drop under loads like some do.
that's why i linked to the simulator, becuase it does all this for you, if you read the whole page first to see what each setting is for, etc, then simply experiment with it.
there is also a thread here on es about it, which is linked on the simulator page itself, with discussion about how it works and vairous features as they get added to it.
for instance, this simulation using all the default settings except picking the g310 standard winding, chanign from kph to mph, and changing from 100w human power to zero, gives this
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph
which shows a 20mph full throttle speed on the flats.
to get 1.6mph you must set the throttle to around 10% of full.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=true&throt=10
or use a system voltage of less, like 24v, and thorttle of 15.5%
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=15.5&batt=B2412SLA
or even less system voltage, like 12v (though i don't know of a controller that will work at that voltage), and a throttle of 31%
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=31&batt=cust_12_0.2_8
on a hill of say, 10% slope, the last one above only gets 0.3mph
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=100&batt=cust_12_0.2_8&grade=10
even at full throttle.
the first setup above on a 10% slope only gets 9mph under all the same setup conditions otherwise, also full throttle
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&grade=10
the same one with only 10% throttle on that slope only goes 1.1mph on hte hill.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=10&grade=10
the next one above on that hill would only go 0.5mph at that same 15% throttle, and only 4.8mph at full throttle, and at full throttle it would overheat in only about 6 minutes.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=15.5&batt=B2412SLA&grade=10
but changing the wheel size to a 12" wheel means it'll do 1.6mph at around 38% throttle and never overheat though it will end up being hotter than boiling water and the 24v 8ah sla battery dies in only a couple of miles
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&autothrot=false&throt=39&batt=B2412SLA&grade=10&wheel=12i
doing that same wheel change to the initial default setup with a 36v 23ah lithium battery gives 1.6mph at 26% throttle
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&wheel=12i&grade=10&throt=26, reduces the motor temperature a tiny bit, and increases range by several times.
all of those are wtiha weight of around 220lbs, so if you're only carrying say 100lbs it greatly decreases the power needed to go uphill, making throtle only 21% and range more than doulbe the above, with a much much lower motor temperature tahts only kinda hot instead of past boiling.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MG310_STD&hp=0&axis=mph&wheel=12i&grade=10&throt=21&mass=50
so lots of things affects the final outcome....
anyway...the smaller a wheel you cna use, the better performance and less wasted power as heat, and the slower the wheel speed you get out of a hubmotor of whatever kind.
if you can use the motor outside the wheel and either belt or chain drive the wheel from that, it's possible to make it much more efficient at very low wheel speeds even with very large diameter wheels (which will make it a lot easier to roll over uneven terrain).
you could use, for instance, a 29" x 4" fatbike wheel and roll over pretty much anything easily enough, but sticking this little motor in that wheel and using it would be very hard on it on steep hills, etc., and use up a lot of battery power, and have a too-high full speed.
but if you put a lot of reduction between the motor and the wheel, via chain or belt, it'll easily go up the hills and have a more usable walking-speed full speed. if you use a bike's rear end for a frame, you can even drive the regular bike drivetrain with the motor going into the pedal end, leaving the pedals and cranks off, and be able to shift gears for hills for even better performance.
tha'ts generally true of whatever motor you use, unless it's built specifically for this kind of usage (i don't know of any hubmotors that are).
if you can use the motor outside the wheel and either belt or chain drive the wheel from that, it's possible to make it much more efficient at very low wheel speeds even with very large diameter wheels (which will make it a lot easier to roll over uneven terrain).
you could use, for instance, a 29" x 4" fatbike wheel and roll over pretty much anything easily enough, but sticking this little motor in that wheel and using it would be very hard on it on steep hills, etc., and use up a lot of battery power, and have a too-high full speed.
but if you put a lot of reduction between the motor and the wheel, via chain or belt, it'll easily go up the hills and have a more usable walking-speed full speed. if you use a bike's rear end for a frame, you can even drive the regular bike drivetrain with the motor going into the pedal end, leaving the pedals and cranks off, and be able to shift gears for hills for even better performance.
tha'ts generally true of whatever motor you use, unless it's built specifically for this kind of usage (i don't know of any hubmotors that are).
wturber
1 MW
Hiker said:
There are all in one 16" wheels that might work for a "wheelbarrow" type arrangement. But if you are set on the larger diameter wheel, you'll have to nose around a bit. is this hiking cart something that would attach to the back of a bicycle? If so, one of the ways that a typical geared hub might work is to simply not apply a lot of power to it. If all the cart has to do is provide enough power for the cart, then maybe you don't need to feed it that much power? Also, maybe you could get away with a 24" or 20" wheel instead of a 27" or 29"?
you can indeed take any of the small wheelbarrow motors, powerchair wheelmtoors, or any other small hubmotor, and build it into a larger diameter wheel (with spokes or with other spokeless options, depending on your machining or DIY abilities or access).
but...the larger wheel will make the motor work harder to give the same torque output, becuase the wheel "gears" the motor up for higher speed and lower torque. for example, some of the wheelbarrow mtors are made for 10" or smaller wheels...putting them into a wheel more than 2.5x the diameter effectively reduces their torque by that amount, and speeds them up by that amount. so if they were meant for say 5mph max, they'll now run at 15mph max, with proportionally lower ability to climb hilsl or pull loads
that tends to negate teh advantages of starting with the smaller wheel motor to begin with--they're not designed to run a bigger diameter wheel and still do the same kind of work they did in teh smaler one.
and the problem with smaller wheels is that they dont' work well on rougher or squishier terrain.
so the use of a hubmotor to do this directly in the wheel is a compromise between those two constraints.
whichever is more important will have to take precedence.
that simulator can be used to take any of it's listed hubmotors and make it a "middrive",with teh checkbox below the motor selection dropdown, where you can use different gearing ratios between the motor and the wheel to experiment and see what, if any, combination of sysstem changes will do what yo want, with the minimum size batery and the smallest lightest motor, with the best wheel size compromise (if any) for the terrain.
but...the larger wheel will make the motor work harder to give the same torque output, becuase the wheel "gears" the motor up for higher speed and lower torque. for example, some of the wheelbarrow mtors are made for 10" or smaller wheels...putting them into a wheel more than 2.5x the diameter effectively reduces their torque by that amount, and speeds them up by that amount. so if they were meant for say 5mph max, they'll now run at 15mph max, with proportionally lower ability to climb hilsl or pull loads
that tends to negate teh advantages of starting with the smaller wheel motor to begin with--they're not designed to run a bigger diameter wheel and still do the same kind of work they did in teh smaler one.
and the problem with smaller wheels is that they dont' work well on rougher or squishier terrain.
so the use of a hubmotor to do this directly in the wheel is a compromise between those two constraints.
whichever is more important will have to take precedence.
that simulator can be used to take any of it's listed hubmotors and make it a "middrive",with teh checkbox below the motor selection dropdown, where you can use different gearing ratios between the motor and the wheel to experiment and see what, if any, combination of sysstem changes will do what yo want, with the minimum size batery and the smallest lightest motor, with the best wheel size compromise (if any) for the terrain.
wturber
1 MW
Right. The only point in using a smaller integrated wheel would be if you are OK using that smaller wheel. Some of them take rather wide wheels that could be run at lower PSI to better deal with off road irregularities. But the small wheel would be a problem if if had to deal with large obstacles.
I did find a company that makes something similar to what I would like to build and the say they use a 500w 8fun planetary hub bike motor adapted to their frame but all I could find are faster rpm models. The motor may be strong enough to push it at low throttle but I don’t think it would be good running it for extended time at low rpms. I do have fab capabilities welding (mig,tig), mill, lathe, etc. I just don’t know much about these motors and was hoping to be lazy and just buy what I need. Been educating myself most of this afternoon so getting a little more familiar with different types and specs. Thanks again. Jeremy
wturber
1 MW
Just to follow on regarding simply running a motor at lower power, I ran the following simulations:
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MMAC12T&hp=0&mass=45&grade=10&throt=60&axis=mph&motor_b=M2706_SA&mass_b=45&hp_b=0&throt_b=45&grade_b=10&bopen=true&batt=B4823_AC&batt_b=B4823_AC
The first motor is a MAC 12T and the second is a standard 9C 2706 with Statorade. Other than the Statorade, this is pretty much what many of the ebay kits amount to. I ran these simulations with a 48v battery and a 20 amp controller. I assume that the hiking cart is not powering a whole bike, but is only responsible for carrying a load of 100 lbs up a 10% incline. You can see that if you limit the load and limit the speed that these motors can work fairly efficiently (80.3% and 71.7%) going up fairly steep climbs. For the given parameters, these motors will essentially never overheat. The key is to be careful about trying to push a lot of amps through the motor at low RPMs.
Even if the idea is to go at a walking pace, these motors can be made to work OK. They do lose efficiency, but you won't burn them up. Here's the same configuration but with less power applied. The efficiency definitely drops, but at the slow speeds, you just don't need to apply much power. And this is where the slower winding of the MAC 12T starts to show its benefits.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MMAC12T&hp=0&mass=45&grade=10&throt=15&axis=mph&motor_b=M2706_SA&mass_b=45&hp_b=0&throt_b=15&grade_b=10&bopen=true&batt=B4823_AC&batt_b=B4823_AC
I'm not sure what you'd want for a range of paces and situations since I don't really understand whether this hiking trailer is being pulled by a human bean or a bicycle. If pulled by a human bean, then we can see that a 20" wheel improves efficiency by a fair bit. Also, at walking speeds, I think the disadvantages of a smaller wheel are significantly reduced. So it might make sense to consider a smaller sized wheel. The main benefit would be to add more range for a given amount of battery.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MMAC12T&hp=0&mass=45&grade=10&throt=20&axis=mph&motor_b=M2706_SA&mass_b=45&hp_b=0&throt_b=17&grade_b=10&bopen=true&batt=B4823_AC&batt_b=B4823_AC&wheel=20i&wheel_b=20i
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MMAC12T&hp=0&mass=45&grade=10&throt=60&axis=mph&motor_b=M2706_SA&mass_b=45&hp_b=0&throt_b=45&grade_b=10&bopen=true&batt=B4823_AC&batt_b=B4823_AC
The first motor is a MAC 12T and the second is a standard 9C 2706 with Statorade. Other than the Statorade, this is pretty much what many of the ebay kits amount to. I ran these simulations with a 48v battery and a 20 amp controller. I assume that the hiking cart is not powering a whole bike, but is only responsible for carrying a load of 100 lbs up a 10% incline. You can see that if you limit the load and limit the speed that these motors can work fairly efficiently (80.3% and 71.7%) going up fairly steep climbs. For the given parameters, these motors will essentially never overheat. The key is to be careful about trying to push a lot of amps through the motor at low RPMs.
Even if the idea is to go at a walking pace, these motors can be made to work OK. They do lose efficiency, but you won't burn them up. Here's the same configuration but with less power applied. The efficiency definitely drops, but at the slow speeds, you just don't need to apply much power. And this is where the slower winding of the MAC 12T starts to show its benefits.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MMAC12T&hp=0&mass=45&grade=10&throt=15&axis=mph&motor_b=M2706_SA&mass_b=45&hp_b=0&throt_b=15&grade_b=10&bopen=true&batt=B4823_AC&batt_b=B4823_AC
I'm not sure what you'd want for a range of paces and situations since I don't really understand whether this hiking trailer is being pulled by a human bean or a bicycle. If pulled by a human bean, then we can see that a 20" wheel improves efficiency by a fair bit. Also, at walking speeds, I think the disadvantages of a smaller wheel are significantly reduced. So it might make sense to consider a smaller sized wheel. The main benefit would be to add more range for a given amount of battery.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MMAC12T&hp=0&mass=45&grade=10&throt=20&axis=mph&motor_b=M2706_SA&mass_b=45&hp_b=0&throt_b=17&grade_b=10&bopen=true&batt=B4823_AC&batt_b=B4823_AC&wheel=20i&wheel_b=20i
wturber
1 MW
If you opt for something like I suggested above, I'd look for a sinewave controller. Standard square wave controllers make a kind of "grinding" noise at low frequencies (RPMs) that might be annoying on a hike. It is no big deal on my ebike since I only operate at the low RPMs for a short time as I speed up. But I don't think I'd like that constant noise while hiking.
Bigwheel
1 kW
Personally I would size the wheel to the terrain. Lumpy, Rooty, rocky tough trails a larger diameter wheel would be best.
Hub motors overheat not due to constant use in general but constant use at a high load specifically. If you load the cart up with 400lbs. of stuff and head up the mtn. pushing a fast pace you will get heat issues but say 100lbs. at a walking pace even in gnarly terrain heat buildup shouldn't be much of an issue.
Hub motors overheat not due to constant use in general but constant use at a high load specifically. If you load the cart up with 400lbs. of stuff and head up the mtn. pushing a fast pace you will get heat issues but say 100lbs. at a walking pace even in gnarly terrain heat buildup shouldn't be much of an issue.
I think I will play with the calculator a little more and get a motor and give it a try. I didn’t have any intention to adding a motor to it at first but with the minor increase in weight the more I got looking the more appealing it seemed. Then if I’m somewhere where there are regulations against powered vehicles I can remove the battery and use it the way I originally intended. And if for some reason it just doesn’t work I’m sure I can use the motor for another project. You all have been a great help. Thanks again. Jeremy
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