(What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

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leisesturm   100 W

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(What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by leisesturm » Sep 11 2020 8:01pm

I won't call any names but @Mad Rhino just pooped all over the motor I was going to buy for my ebike build. Big time. Threw it under the bus, ran over it, backed up and had another go. Crystalyte H series. I understand that he, and a number of others like the Leaf Motor 1500W motors. Aren't those just rebadged Nine Continents motors? As I understand it 9c motors don't leave enough space for disc rotors and I'd really like that part of my installation to not give me any headaches.

So, seriously, what is a great motor/controller/display/battery kit that I can buy and have some confidence in? Thanks so much.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by MadRhino » Sep 11 2020 9:43pm

:D

Depends of what you are expecting. The Leaf 1500 is a very good motor but I’d say a tad too big and powerful for a front build. I believe most who are building with a front hub prefer using a smaller geared hub. Best is to avoid a heavy front wheel, if you value handling and nimbleness.

If you are expecting to upgrade power and speed, best is to build on the rear. Then I’d consider the Leaf motor as the best entry level performance motor. Higher performance motors are much heavier, thus more complicated and expansive to build.

The Clyte H motor is old now. Many of us had used it when it first appear. Fried many too, and the first series had axle wire exit problems... let’s say, everything bad that I may have said about it is well justified.
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Balmorhea   1 MW

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by Balmorhea » Sep 11 2020 11:30pm

leisesturm wrote:
Sep 11 2020 8:01pm
So, seriously, what is a great motor/controller/display/battery kit that I can buy and have some confidence in?
Crystalyte motors were one of the only ways to play, once upon a time. But MadRhino is kinda right about the H series. There are manufacturing quality issues with my 16ish year old Crystalyte 5305 that would bum me out if I had them in a motor I bought today. (I still use it regularly.)

500W is a power range with lots of options and variety. Are you interested in a geared motor? Q128 is a phenomenal value and very compact and light for 500W. Bafang BPM is another proven one in that power range. They're both great choices if you run them in their intended power and speed range.

If you have any inclination to juice your "500W" motor at much more than the prescribed amount of power, then you are a better candidate for a direct drive hub. Nine Continent hubs and their many clones are appropriate for the 500W range, but can take a lot more power than that-- at least for a while.
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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by AngryBob » Sep 12 2020 5:17am

Are you going to use it to make cole slaw? Because that requires some very specific performance parameters which some motors will match better than others. Especially if you need to do that all day long, every day.

Are you going to use it to winch a piano up to the top floor of a 3 story building? Because doing that job will require a completely different set of parameters. Now, if you only rarely do that, then you can get away with something a bit less capable.

OR, if you really, really need it to be the color blue to match your eyes, then that is a different consideration.

"BEST" is a judgement call requiring a well-described set of usage conditions in order to give a useful answer. It's kind of like identifying the "STUPIDEST" question, for which this one is a serious contender.
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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by Bigwheel » Sep 12 2020 8:27am

My vote: https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... build.html

I've had one since the beta phase and it is flawless even though they have made improvements for the final version, specifically the connector. Can be easily be set up for tool less removal and will run at 500w all day long. Mine is set up with a selector from 250/500/750/1000w and I primarily find the 500w setting to be my go to for power and range.

There still might be an issue with what brake caliper you use however but I find the Shimano ones work just fine.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by dogman dan » Sep 12 2020 9:15am

https://www.ebikekit.com/collections/e- ... no-battery

500w when you run it on 36v. 750w peak that is, for about two seconds leaving a stop sign. At full speed of about 20 mph, it will draw 4-500w. has a disc mount on the motor.

Disclaimer, I used to work customer service for EBK. I also did the test to destruction on the kits. In normal, hard use, I never broke that motor. Still riding that test motor, when I do ride an e bike. I had to overload it badly to fail one.

NOT cheap. But comes with a year warranty. Upgradeable to 48v anytime, no change except to the battery.

leisesturm   100 W

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by leisesturm » Sep 14 2020 9:44am

AngryBob wrote:
Sep 12 2020 5:17am
"BEST" is a judgement call requiring a well-described set of usage conditions in order to give a useful answer. It's kind of like identifying the "STUPIDEST" question, for which this one is a serious contender.
I would kind of get it if yours was the first response to my question. Seeing as you had at least three examples of how to civilly interpret such a stupid question ... well, I'm sorry. This is all on you I am afraid. You aren't so much angry as you are intolerant. Thanks to those who mentioned motors not commonly examined.

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E-HP   1 MW

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by E-HP » Sep 14 2020 10:28am

leisesturm wrote:
Sep 11 2020 8:01pm
So, seriously, what is a great motor/controller/display/battery kit that I can buy and have some confidence in?
Wow, so far I'm the only one that answered this question, with the Ebikeling kit. Is there a prize?

500W front motor - check
controller - check
display - check
battery - check
reputation - check (based on forum posts, many are satisfied with their ebikeling kits
best - check (this is subjective, depending on the buyer)

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by 2old » Sep 14 2020 12:09pm

I had a 36V, 350w system (seven or so pound motor) that was really fun for both errands and off road, that my daughter appropriated. Then, for fun, tried a 48V, 1200w, but the large DD motor took the fun out of riding that bike, a steel 90's MTB, since the front end was too heavy and the power overwhelmed the bike (for me). Agree that ebikeling is a good source for inexpensive systems based on my experience.

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by AngryBob » Sep 15 2020 5:28am

I see you still don't get it.

"BEST" is a question which CAN NOT BE ANSWERED, until and unless, YOU, the OP, describe just exactly what YOU want to do with it.

The BEST motor for some other persons wants and needs, may, or may not, be the best for a completely different persons completely different wants or needs.

You have FAILED to provide even the most basic set of requirements, such information being necessary to answer your question.

How much weight will the bike carry? How fast do you want to go? How far do you want to go? Do you have a weight limit for the bike itself, or have you even thought about carrying it up stairs or onto a bus rack? How mechanically inclined are you? How close to an ebike shop? How is shipping to your area? Do you have hills, and if so, how significant are they? Do you need front suspension on the bike? Will you ride off-road? Do you want to pedal, and if so, how extensively? What kind of traffic are you dealing with? Do you want regen braking? What kind of bike will you use? Does it have steel forks? Do you want to be able to substantially increase performance in the future?

There are more questions requiring answers, but since you clearly have not bothered to make the slightest effort to understand the limitations involved and just seek affirmation from random individuals, just get the blue one.
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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by dogman dan » Sep 15 2020 6:01am

Yep, you are right Bob, you need a lot of information to say what is the best motor for a person. I used to spend a lot of time interviewing customers before advising them which E-Bike kit package to buy. Jason would throw a shit fit though, when he reviewed my chats and saw me telling some 400 pound dude none of the ebk kits was really powerful enough for his size.

My previous reply simply said what he could expect from my favorite of the kits Jason sent me to destroy. I thought it would be delicate compared to the DD stuff, but only by severely overloading one could I kill it. I did break a shear key jumping it, but thats what the design is supposed to do, rather than ruin the clutch. That test motor is still kicking, even though 90% of its use has been single track riding where the grade is mostly above 10%. I weigh about 200 pounds.

Its perhaps a bit harder to find really good vendors for front hub stuff, and I'm not familiar with the ebikling line. Lots of the front kits out there are 350w rated geared motors. EBK stopped selling those, because the just couldn't climb hills with the heavier riders without overheating. I advised one brand of 500w rated geared motor.

But in front, I'd definitely lean towards a lighter geared motor, than a 15 pound 9c type dd. Bear in mind, I put 5000 commute miles on front hubs, and once built a 4000w 50 mph race bike with front hub. I liked front hub that much. But I never really liked the weight of it up front. I did front for that commute, so I could keep that 11 tooth rear 8 speed cassette back there.

leisesturm   100 W

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by leisesturm » Sep 16 2020 12:54pm

AngryBob wrote:
Sep 15 2020 5:28am
I see you still don't get it.

"BEST" is a question which CAN NOT BE ANSWERED, until and unless, YOU, the OP, describe just exactly what YOU want to do with it.
Bob. With all the respect due that you don't deserve. Other responses to my post prove that you are WRONG. I have forgotten more about e-bikes than you would ever know. And a good thing since my knowlege goes back to SLA batteries and friction drives. Just above mine is an ongoing thread by someone who possibly could be considered fair game for intolerance and they have been treated with the utmost respect for like nine pages of back and forth. I'm a little blindsided by your attacks. I let my guard down because all the posts I've seen so far on this forum have been overwhelmingly helpful and free of condescension. It won't happen again.

My recent research has mainly been in mid-drives. All your good questions notwithstanding, the TL;DR of my post was: "So, seriously, what is a great motor/controller/display/battery kit that I can buy and have some confidence in? Thanks so much". Not really that hard a question, unless you want to make it one.

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by leisesturm » Sep 16 2020 2:14pm

dogman dan wrote:
Sep 15 2020 6:01am
But in front, I'd definitely lean towards a lighter geared motor, than a 15 pound 9c type dd. Bear in mind, I put 5000 commute miles on front hubs, and once built a 4000w 50 mph race bike with front hub. I liked front hub that much. But I never really liked the weight of it up front. I did front for that commute, so I could keep that 11 tooth rear 8 speed cassette back there.
As an (obvious) lover of longtail builds, you might appreciate this consideration for an ebike build: https://flic.kr/p/2jHftd1. It has only been 10 or so days since I unboxed her. I planned for a mid-drive, but all the chainline issues, and being limited to a 1X drivetrain (2X at most) made me take a hard look at hub drives. The bike is already incredibly rear heavy. If that three pound lock wasn't in the front basket, it would be the front wheel that is off the ground.

I figured a front hub wouldn't be the worst thing. Even though the bike is rear heavy without a rider the riders weight is pretty evenly split because the rear axle is kicked out so much from under the rider. Also the rear axle is a funky length. Not tandem spec 145mm and not MTB 135mm. It is 141mm. Front motors are easy. 100mm and you are good to go in any world. 500W because just about all 500W motors I have seen can take a bit more. Just like mid-drives. TBH, the 9c 15lb motor doesn't really worry me. That front rack is good for 100lbs. And as I understand it some people actually carry that much weight up front.

The Clyte H 3540 that I mentioned in the o.p. that was thrashed by MadRhino gives a good idea of what I have determined is a good fit for this bike and for what I want to do with it. All I was asking was, if not the Clyte H series (12lbs.), what else in that general area of performance is better quality and has more approval, regardless of price. It isn't that money is no object but I honestly haven't seen that any of them cost more than a couple to three or four hundred, bare motor, and barely more than that built into a wheel. As an entire system I would be expecting to pay ~$1500, up to $2000 if really necessary. Still a bargain. My favorite turn-key electric is the Trek Allant 8s. $4200 and it can't haul anything and can barely reach 28mph.

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by Balmorhea » Sep 16 2020 2:23pm

leisesturm wrote:
Sep 16 2020 2:14pm
The Clyte H 3540 that I mentioned in the o.p. that was thrashed by MadRhino gives a good idea of what I have determined is a good fit for this bike and for what I want to do with it. All I was asking was, if not the Clyte H series (12lbs.), what else in that general area of performance is better quality and has more approval, regardless of price.
Leaf 1500W is a better hub motor in every way than Crystalyte H series.

But neither one is a 500W motor! And that's what you led with when you asked your question. What's your reasoning in using a big motor to do a small motor's job?
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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by MadRhino » Sep 16 2020 3:03pm

Likely to be willing to build on the rear now. That is making the original question obsolete and the Leaf motor the best solution.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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leisesturm   100 W

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by leisesturm » Sep 16 2020 3:27pm

Balmorhea wrote:
Sep 16 2020 2:23pm
Leaf 1500W is a better hub motor in every way than Crystalyte H series.

But neither one is a 500W motor! And that's what you led with when you asked your question. What's your reasoning in using a big motor to do a small motor's job?
Well, the Grin people sell the Clyte H as a 500W motor but they spend a fair amount of time explaining that rating motors by wattage is largely meaningless. I admit I was very lazy in my first post. Wattage seems to be the language that is most used on the forum so I just did as the Romans do. As to your main point. Compared to a mid-drive (80nm - 100nm) torque the hub motors, even the geared motors don't have anywhere near the torque. I want a fast bike, nothing crazy, a 25mph cruise is plenty fast and I'd be doing half the work. I'd like it to at least be able to sprint to ~30mph with me helping. And I would at least want it to meet me halfway on the hills as well. I just don't think a 250W - 500W motor will be as happy as a 500W - 1000W motor. I think the Clyte is 40nm torque or close to that. But I am still gathering knowledge. The DD hubs are supposed to be quiet which attracts me. And there is less to fail. But a good geared hub that could deliver good speed would tick the boxes too.

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by Balmorhea » Sep 16 2020 3:55pm

If you want good torque at low wattage, you have to get a high turn count winding or else supply a very high current at low voltage (which may take an unusual controller). Leaf will make whatever turn count you want, by request. Or you can tell them the rpm or mph you're looking for, and they'll choose the winding accordingly.

I have two front hub motors in operation right now, and the maximum torque for both of them is in the 100 Nm range (but with >1500W of electrical power going to them).
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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by dogman dan » Sep 16 2020 4:05pm

Yeah, now that I see that bike, I'd want a nice pig heavy DD up there that could push out 2000w without hardly getting warm, but thats because of the load I'd put on er, and the grades I'd ride up.

if its steel, I'd weld whatever I needed to put a big rear DD on it. But again, my needs, not yours maybe. I think you are over doing the balance issue, for paved riding anyway. Its not that big a deal to load down a longtails ass.

Mid drive of course, would be your best bet for that large, potentially heavy loaded bike and using only 500w. I'd overload that geared motor if I rode it on a cargo bike. Thats how I fried one of the geared 500w rated destruction test motors, hooked up a trailer full of buckets of sand, then rode up the mountain.

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 16 2020 8:29pm

Bought a pair of 1500w leafmotors, front and rear. The front fit width good. The two motors did not have the same axel, front used the older leafmotor style before they updated the rear to larger phase wires with the hybrid 1500w/2000w axel.

Mounted the front motor on a 29er but did not finish the project before I gave it to my brother who had his e-bike stolen. He rides around with the cheapest 36v controller and battery he can buy. figure 400w, it rolls along at 17 mph and good take off torque. he uses up batteries, brakes and on his second controller but the motor should last him for years. Seen him the other day pulling a trailer hauling with it.

Note: rear motor is on my trike.
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TommyCat   1 kW

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Re: (What is) The Best Damn 500W (front) Hub Money Can Buy?

Post by TommyCat » Sep 18 2020 9:02am

A possible consideration if you'd like an internal controller and DD hub...

https://goldenmotor.bike/product/magic- ... rsion-kit/



Regards,
T.C.
See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub E-Bike build Here!

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