52 volt batteries proceed with caution

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52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by EMPowered » Sep 14 2020 8:27pm

Here is a link to an article about Hailong branded 52 volt batteries.
They are still being sold by many vendors, but should they? NO is the short answer.
Check it out below:
https://www.empoweredcycles.com/blogs/n ... th-caution
Last edited by EMPowered on Sep 15 2020 3:43am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by E-HP » Sep 14 2020 8:41pm

I don't get it. The article reads like the company had a demand for 52V packs, so they built a bunch with shoddy construction, then blame it on the fact that it's a 52V pack when they failed? Is that it? Not sure what to conclude. Or are they focusing only on Hailong packs?

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by EMPowered » Sep 14 2020 8:46pm

All the 52 volt packs using Hailong cases will be shoddy so just be careful.
All those cases were designed for 48 volts not 52.
The cases would need to be designed for 52 volts, but they are only designed for 48 and cram cells inside.
All the vendors are doing this, just want people to be aware.
If you open a 52 volt Hailong case this is what you will see inside.
None of those sellers make these packs, they buy them like this.
Last edited by EMPowered on Sep 15 2020 9:56pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by E-HP » Sep 14 2020 8:50pm

Makes mores sense now. You wouldn't know they were talking only about Hailong packs until you scroll down to the pictures, so the article points to 52V being the issue, especially when they attempt to support that position with the references to the BMS and certain manufacturers, neither of which is a Hailong case construction issue.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by EMPowered » Sep 14 2020 9:16pm

These cases are designed for 48/36 volts, to fit only 52 cells or less, not 56. Hailong does not make a case made for 52 volts. The first picture, 48 volts, with the purple cells, shows how it should look, notice the black frame holding the cells together as a pack. That cell holder frame actually comes inside the empty/bare cases provided by Hailong (also known as ShanShan Platic Company) when purchasing their cases, these companies don't make packs, just cases. The frames are designed to hold the cells in the proper configuration for series/parallel connections, shaped to fit properly in the case, and hold the cells together as a unit.
When the battery factory gets an order for a 52 volt pack they toss the provided cell holder in the bin.
The assembler then custom hand builds the extra cells into whatever shape they think best to cram in there.
Nothing is used to hold the cells together and there are more cells added into the case it was not designed to hold, this is bad.
You can see in the pics of the 52 volt green LGMJ1 cells there is no frame to hold the cells together. It's shape is strange and there is one cell hanging out all by itself at one end unprotected. There is nothing mechanical holding it together as a complete pack. The cells can move around flexing the electrical connections at the tabs straining them eventually causing failure.
Nickel strip is not meant to hold the pack together, Its purpose is for electron flow.

The point is, if you are looking for what battery to get, 48 vs 52 volt.
Understand that Hailong branded 52 volt packs on the market are not being built correctly.
Ask sellers to send pictures of the inside of their pack, ask what is holding the cells together. Make sure it isn't a pic of a 48 volt version ; ) The 48 volt versions will always include the frame and be of solid construction, the 52 volt versions won't.
48 volt packs, because of the frame and jigs provided by case mfgr, have CNC spot welded pre-died and cut nickel strip.
52 volt packs are hand assembled, and hand welded with hand cut strips. The workers actually hate making them, isn't that a warm fuzzy knowing the pack maker is cursing this thing they are making you, not good!
48 volts is plenty, you will have a blast, you will never notice the difference.
Just get a 48 volt pack because it will be built the way it was designed, by somebody not hating building it.
Go for the build quality, not the extra 4 volts.
Last edited by EMPowered on Sep 15 2020 3:26am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by HK12K » Sep 14 2020 9:22pm

Is it that hard to create a larger mold? The market requires more quality manufactured packs of varying voltage and capacity. This shouldn't be that hard for an industry of purportedly competent manufacturers to achieve, but here we are.

Make them from too big to fit to too small to want and everything in between. Make them with quality components. Warranty your work. Price them fairly. This is a simple recipe. They will sell.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by leisesturm » Sep 14 2020 11:15pm

E-HP wrote:
Sep 14 2020 8:41pm
I don't get it. The article reads like the company had a demand for 52V packs, so they built a bunch with shoddy construction, then blame it on the fact that it's a 52V pack when they failed? Is that it? Not sure what to conclude. Or are they focusing only on Hailong packs?
I don't get it either. But I noticed that "the company" from the article is also the same company that started this thread. I'm calling something on that. A quick perusal of "the company's" website shows that they are a dealer of Bafang mid-drives and not much (anything) else. Bafang mid-drives probably don't have much tolerance for voltages above 48V but that could never be the case across the entire spectrum of EV's.

I have to think that 48V batteries could be made as badly as the examples of 52V batteries given. I am a relative newcomer to the actual planning and execution of an e-bike build but I have had an interest for years. There are more ways than just cramming 18650 cells in Hailong and Reention cases. What about 52V (58V) tool packs? What about battery packs from electric cars? What about batteries built with 21700 cells? What about batteries of 52V, 60V, 72V and more, handbuilt (with love) by skilled fabricators for their own use or limited sales???

Yes, it sounds like 'this company' has an issue with 52V packs and want to use their positioning in the industry to push an agenda. Of course I could be way off base. I would love to be proven wrong actually.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by goatman » Sep 14 2020 11:44pm

theres nothing wrong with 52 volts, the company doing that workmanship should be black balled.

who is the company that is building and selling the packs?

are you really soldering up packs and returning them as fixed to customers?

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by EMPowered » Sep 15 2020 12:53am

I just decided to write something up on these 52 volt packs still being pushed by many vendors.
I get asked on the phone and in emails all the time and writing something I can link to is a time savor for me and those wanting to know.
When our customers had failures we sent them replacement 48 volt packs. And we switched to Reention cases.
Endless sphere is a great place people come to look for help and I wanted to inform folks about how factories build the 52 volt packs using Hailong cases so they are aware of it and be careful when they make a purchase. I am not trying to sell anything.
No agenda.
Just sharing an issue we had and still see it on the market today, FYI kinda thing.
If I have created a conversation, helped somebody make a better choice, then I have accomplished the goal.
Just putting it out there if some one is thinking of adding one of these packs to the cart.
Last edited by EMPowered on Sep 16 2020 11:32pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by EMPowered » Sep 15 2020 3:41am

Avoid 52 volt Hailong packs is all I am trying to warn people about. I have no agenda. We see them all the time and people are getting mislead. 48 volt Hailong good, 52 volt Hailong bad.

Reention actually does make cases now to properly build a 52 volt 17.5 Ah and 13.5 Ah batteries. They are a much better company than Hailong from my experience and have a much more solid product. Shop around for Reention cases and you will be much happier with their product. No I am not being paid by Reention or anyone. Just trying to get info out there.
Reention pack links below:
70 cell capacity 52 volt 17.5 Ah (Polly DP-5)
http://www.reention.com/en/xzdch/yingwuxilie/116.html
56 cell capacity 52 volt 13.5 Ah (Polly DP-6)
http://www.reention.com/en/xzdch/yingwuxilie/118.html

We were planning on using these to build proper 52 volt packs, but to keep our relationship with Bafang we are honoring their request not to use 52 volt batteries with their motor system.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 15 2020 5:11am

Would like to get several years out of my batteries, so glad for the warning.
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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by dogman dan » Sep 15 2020 6:30am

As a vendor, you need to tread very lightly here on ES. Others have put up posts they regreted, or should have.

But I do see your point, that pack in the pictures is as poorly built as the one that burned my house down.

All I have now is a superbly constructed battery which happens to be in a clear case. I can see the quality inside. But do I trust it in my garage? NOOOOOOOO.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by fechter » Sep 15 2020 8:36am

EMPowered wrote:
Sep 14 2020 8:46pm
Luna is selling them now, as well as Bafang USA Direct.
None of those sellers make these packs, they buy them like this.
Luna now makes their own packs which are some of the best designed on the market. I don't think they even sell the Hailong packs anymore for the exact reasons you are pointing out.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by spinningmagnets » Sep 15 2020 2:58pm

My first pack was 52V from EM3EV, at the time, their 14S packs were called 50V. No problems.

I now have three packs from Luna, all 52V, all of them work fine, none have given me any problems.

I'd still have the first pack, but a co-worker took a test-ride and made me an offer for much more than the bike and kit cost me.

So...dont buy packs with shoddy construction, using sub-standard parts.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by docw009 » Sep 16 2020 8:24am

I do agree about only 1-2 mph difference between 13S and 14S in my BBS02.

Hasn't Hailong been a troubled design. Seems to me the contacts would get wet and corrode. Some vendors sold redesigned contacts to fix this. And didn't the packs sometimes fall out too?

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by tomjasz » Sep 17 2020 5:23am

EMP powered is a top notch reseller of Bafang mid drives. I’m nafraid your comments are not only unwarranted but also without merit.
leisesturm wrote:
Sep 14 2020 11:15pm
E-HP wrote:
Sep 14 2020 8:41pm
I don't get it. The article reads like the company had a demand for 52V packs, so they built a bunch with shoddy construction, then blame it on the fact that it's a 52V pack when they failed? Is that it? Not sure what to conclude. Or are they focusing only on Hailong packs?
I don't get it either. But I noticed that "the company" from the article is also the same company that started this thread. I'm calling something on that. A quick perusal of "the company's" website shows that they are a dealer of Bafang mid-drives and not much (anything) else. Bafang mid-drives probably don't have much tolerance for voltages above 48V but that could never be the case across the entire spectrum of EV's.

I have to think that 48V batteries could be made as badly as the examples of 52V batteries given. I am a relative newcomer to the actual planning and execution of an e-bike build but I have had an interest for years. There are more ways than just cramming 18650 cells in Hailong and Reention cases. What about 52V (58V) tool packs? What about battery packs from electric cars? What about batteries built with 21700 cells? What about batteries of 52V, 60V, 72V and more, handbuilt (with love) by skilled fabricators for their own use or limited sales???

Yes, it sounds like 'this company' has an issue with 52V packs and want to use their positioning in the industry to push an agenda. Of course I could be way off base. I would love to be proven wrong actually.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by E-HP » Sep 17 2020 9:05am

tomjasz wrote:
Sep 17 2020 5:23am
EMP powered is a top notch reseller of Bafang mid drives. I’m nafraid your comments are not only unwarranted but also without merit.
Perhaps, but poorly written article. Points 3, 4, and 5 that they cite, have absolutely nothing to do with the issue they are describing, which is specific to the physical limitations of the case configuration; nothing to do with the voltage. By including those points, it makes it feel like a shell game. The actual issue sounds legitimate, and something that is good to be aware of. 52V is not the issue, the case is.
I think it's great that they are highlighting the issue, but poor execution on the writing.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by donn » Sep 17 2020 9:43am

Right, the confusion that seems to cast doubt on 52V packs per se, when the problem is only with these particular Hailong cases, needed to be cleared up.

The speculation about voltage limits in Bafang crank drives, though, seems wrong - Luna and bafangusadirect seem to feel both the BBS02 and BBSHD will take 52V, I didn't surf any farther than that.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by leisesturm » Sep 17 2020 11:35am

tomjasz wrote:
Sep 17 2020 5:23am
EMP powered is a top notch reseller of Bafang mid drives. I’m nafraid your comments are not only unwarranted but also without merit.
??? I didn't say anything about EMP's reputation. In fact, what I said was that it appeared that EMP is using their reputation to pursue an agenda. I see nothing in what you have said that disproves my opinion. Shoddy 52V battery packs are one thing. The validity of 52V as a worthwhile improvement over 48V is another.

As I understand it, 52V provides roughly 8% more performance than 48V. In a hub motor it might be argued that if 52V unduly stresses the controller electronics then it isn't worth it. In a mid-drive ... well ... I don't know of a single reseller of mid-drive motors, EMP excepted that doesn't offer a 52V option. Take the matter up with them. When you get consensus you can come back here and scold me for speaking out of turn.

Know what? Save your energy. Fact: 52V is the new 48V. The ship has sailed. Lead, follow, or get out of the way, it is said. There is no turning back. It was pointless for EMP to even try and shame people out of considering 52V (and more) power for their projects.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by donn » Sep 17 2020 11:49am

leisesturm wrote:
Sep 14 2020 11:15pm
Bafang mid-drives probably don't have much tolerance for voltages above 48.
leisesturm wrote:
Sep 17 2020 11:35am
In a mid-drive ... well ... I don't know of a single reseller of mid-drive motors, EMP excepted that doesn't offer a 52V option.
So Bafang mid-drives probably do have plenty of tolerance for voltages above 48, right? Not that I'm expecting you to speak authoritatively about this, but just so we don't create another point of confusion about 52V, while trying to clear up the first one.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by tomjasz » Sep 17 2020 1:51pm

leisesturm wrote:
Sep 17 2020 11:35am
52V is the new 48V.
To funny! Bafang ships 48V and 52V versions. 48V pack sales are still pretty common.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by EMPowered » Sep 17 2020 3:02pm

52 volt firmware from Bafang limits current to 28 amps down from 30 amps and this is a special request for Bafang to load this firmware to not throw the error 7 code with 52 volt batteries, it negates any supposed 8% performance increase. They do not want 52 volt batteries. They do not ship a 52 volt labeled motor. 28 amps X 58.8 volts = 1646 watts, 30 amps X 54.6 volts = 1638 watts. So whats the point/advantage? 52 volt is hype imo. You have to use an old version of firmware to get 30 amps at 58.8 volts. I am not saying 52 volts is bad, just over rated. You need a much larger voltage increase to really make a difference.

The important point I am trying to make is to help people avoid buying the 52 volt hailong packs because they are cramming cells into a 48 volt designed case. There are a lot of these for sale and I see more and more people with these packs.

If 52 volt is not mostly hype with minimal to no benefits, please share your thoughts why?

And please new buyers, avoid buying those shoddy Hailong 52 volt packs!

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by E-HP » Sep 17 2020 6:56pm

EMPowered wrote:
Sep 17 2020 3:02pm
If 52 volt is not mostly hype with minimal to no benefits, please share your thoughts why?
Can you provide some links to the "hype"? I have a 52V pack, but I didn't buy it due to hype, but I'm interested in seeing what you're referring to. Are you talking about ES members?

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by donn » Sep 17 2020 7:21pm

Inasmuch as what he's saying makes any sense, he's talking strictly about use with Bafang BBS02 and possibly BBSHD, which according to him derate 52V input so you get the same power as 48V.

Someone who
  1. sells a 52V battery pack for one of these two motors, and
  2. 2. claims that it will deliver more power
... could be accused of hype, if it's true.

Of course, it's still more battery regardless - it will still have more watt-hours in there, derated or not. And for the many, many ebike users who have some other kind of motor, or an old Bafang motor if they made this change recently - it's a non-issue.

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Re: 52 volt batteries proceed with caution

Post by Matador » Sep 17 2020 10:08pm

Got an old Bafang BBSHD (running 30A at 58.8V). Bought in in August 2016 IIRC. I don't use the Hailong case for my 52V battery. Should I be concerned and rebuilt for 48V (buying new BMS, charger etc)??? Or can I just carry on at 52V?

I mean, Luna Cycle was pushing 50A at 58.8V with their "Ludacris" (Shunt)-modded BBSHD controller.

Matador

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