How practical is 72v (or 60v) for a street legal direct drive set-up meant for climbing and sub 28 mph speed?

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May 19, 2012
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How practical is 72v for a street legal (i.e. 749W or less peak power) direct drive set-up meant for climbing and a sub 28 mph speed on flat ground (when assisted by pedaling).

I was thinking of a very slow wind direct drive motor (possibly meant for a 29" wheel) used in a 20" wheel. The increased volts to regain the top speed lost by using a very slow wind motor in a small diameter wheel.

This coupled to a 72v 9 amph battery pack.

P.S. If 72v is not practical how does 60v fit in?
 
That is OK. Small wheels are not making the smoothest ride, but good torque and efficiency for climbing.

9 A/h battery capacity is not much though. 28 mph is not fast but climbing is hungry. Depends of how steep you want to climb, and how long you plan to ride.
 
Problem is you need 20 series groups, and even using powerful cells you’ll still want 4p; which is 80 cells- a big mass of batteries to hide on a frame. You can readily buy a 70 cell case which allows 14s 5p without looking like a science experiment...
 
electric_nz said:
Problem is you need 20 series groups, and even using powerful cells you’ll still want 4p.

Why 4P?

P.S. The New Hailong downtube battery enclosure can hold 80 18650 cells:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000157438415.html?src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&&albagn=888888&albcp=1582410664&albag=59754279756&trgt=743612850874&crea=en4000157438415&netw=u&device=c&albpg=743612850874&albpd=en4000157438415&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI36PR9JbA7AIVaz6tBh3PBQxXEAYYAyABEgLBm_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 
Higher voltages are really for faster top speeds.

If lower speed is all you need then you can stilll get torque - heavier load, fast acceleration, climbing hills - at lower voltages.

If those needs are moderate, then focus on range efficiency, Wh per mile
 
j bjork said:
I dont think 72v can be street legal on a bicycle. Over 60v it is considered dangerous high voltage and need to meet harder safety regulations.

That's interesting! naturally, questions of legality can be answered accurately only in terms of a particular jurisdiction, but it's interesting that even one jurisdiction specifies battery voltage (and if that jurisdiction is Sweden, where houses are wired at 230V.)
 
by j bjork » Oct 19 2020 7:34am

I dont think 72v can be street legal on a bicycle. Over 60v it is considered dangerous high voltage and need to meet harder safety regulations.

Yes, over 60V goes thru dry skin be careful and the issue high voltage has with connections.

Currently run 72V with a 7T leafmotor. This was my first setup for myself.
Reasons for this setup:
1. Was talked into a bigger battery than I needed.
2. Wanted a long distance battery.
3. Did not want a controller larger than 40a.
4.Wanted to get to 2600w with 40a or less.
5. Wanted to get more torque with less amps. (Not saying that 7T makes more torque than other motors)
6. Wanted more power that was not street legal and have switches to limit power.

750w is plenty for PAS, the issue is peddle speed, chain ring ect.... 500w is the most power even used with my PAS, it does go up to 750w but most of my riding is between 1-300w. Have a throttle for hills with power up to 2600w but 1200w is the most needed.

I would try to get your amps up 30-40 before even thinking of going up in volts. 750w is only 15a @ 48V.
72V controllers are much bigger unless you get a phaserunner.
 
j bjork said:
I dont think 72v can be street legal on a bicycle. Over 60v it is considered dangerous high voltage and need to meet harder safety regulations.

The US law doesn't mention anything about voltage:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ319/pdf/PLAW-107publ319.pdf

....but it does make sense to me that if the "less than 750 watts" is achieved with high voltage and low amps as compared to lower voltage and higher amps then that would fall into a different law for safety.
 
john61ct said:
Higher voltages are really for faster top speeds.

If lower speed is all you need then you can stilll get torque - heavier load, fast acceleration, climbing hills - at lower voltages.

Here is Clyte H3525, 48v 16.5 amph battery, Phaserunner, 20" wheel + 100W of pedal assist:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=M3525&cont=PR&batt=B4816_GA&wheel=20i

It only goes 31.3 kph (19.4 mph).....which is fine for a class 1 ebike but for class III ebike the speed with pedal assist can be up to 45 kph (28 mph).
 
I don't think many people here are interested or concerned about classes of ebikes. It is not a high priority, we just build our ebikes and ride.
 
electric_nz said:
Problem is you need 20 series groups, and even using powerful cells you’ll still want 4p; which is 80 cells- a big mass of batteries to hide on a frame. You can readily buy a 70 cell case which allows 14s 5p without looking like a science experiment...

Hi! You don’t have to use flashlight batteries! There are other cells scaled better to the purpose, and easier to use.

As for the OP’s question— If all you want is 750W nominal (say 1250W electrical, maximum), then it’s easier to go with a better supported voltage like 48V or even 52V. That’s a 25A controller, which is on the small side.
 
Plus staying well below the stress-level thresholds, better longevity with less expensive electronics.
 
john61ct said:
Plus staying well below the stress-level thresholds, better longevity with less expensive electronics.

I thought higher volts and lower amps actually allow a motor to run cooler than lower voltage and higher amps for any given motor output?
 
An article called "Safety Norms for working on High voltage electric vehicles":

https://evreporter.com/high-voltage-electric-vehicles/

It does say anything over 60v is considered high voltage.

So I wonder how practical 15S charged to a maximum of 4 volts would be? (15S x 4v= 60v)

A greater number of charge cycles compared to 14S charged to 4.2 volts? (14S x 4.2v= 58.8v)

Isn't 15S at 4v typically compatible with 48v controllers?
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
john61ct said:
Plus staying well below the stress-level thresholds, better longevity with less expensive electronics.

I thought higher volts and lower amps actually allow a motor to run cooler than lower voltage and higher amps for any given motor output?

Talking about the electronics' components, e.g. MOSFETs, capacitors, not the physical parts of the motor, which really are much more robust, easily protected with overtemp limiting
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
I wonder how practical 15S charged to a maximum of 4 volts would be? (15S x 4v= 60v)

A greater number of charge cycles compared to 14S charged to 4.2 volts? (14S x 4.2v= 58.8v)

Isn't 15S at 4v typically compatible with 48v controllers?
There is not IRL a hard line between 58 and 62, just incremental risk.

60V (59.2nominal) packs with LI is 16S, charge at 64-67.7Vch

Can implement with 3x 6S sub-blocks.

Charging to 4.0V would sacrifice more range than most are willing, 4.1V even 4.05V is a better balance.

48V is 13S (3.7Vpc 48.1Vnom, 3.6Vpc is 46.8) 52-54.6V for charging
 
john61ct said:
ebike4healthandfitness said:
I wonder how practical 15S charged to a maximum of 4 volts would be? (15S x 4v= 60v)

A greater number of charge cycles compared to 14S charged to 4.2 volts? (14S x 4.2v= 58.8v)

Charging to 4.0V would sacrifice more range than most are willing, 4.1V even 4.05V is a better balance.

Yes charging to 4.0v would sacrifice capacity (and thus range compared to charging to 4.2v).

But then again if I charged to 4.2v I wouldn't want to discharge so deeply (in order to prolong battery life) and this also sacrifices capacity (and thus range).

So from my perspective it boils down to making sure the battery is big enough (for the planned task at hand) and then deciding to either charge at 4.0v coupled to discharging more deeply vs. charging to 4.2v and discharging less deeply......which one gives more charge cycles?

Looking at the information in the article below it does appear that charging to 4.0v and discharging to 0% capacity beats charging to 4.2v and discharging to 30% capacity for charge cycles by about a factor of 200% (i.e. a person would get double the charge cycles at the same effective capacity by using 4.0v and discharging to 0% capacity as compared to charging to 4.2v and discharging to 30% capacity)

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

I say this because while the article points out charging to 4.0v gives 4x more cycles compared to 4.2v (at the cost of a reduced capacity of 70% to 75%) the data in the article also indicates discharging to 30% capacity (from 4.2v) would probably yield 2x as many cycles as discharging to 0% capacity from 4.2v.
 
if i lay my forearm across my 17s battery at 70v, i feel it, its a little creepy. your controller at 60v might die young if it has 63v caps in it and your display may crap out.

14s is safe for most things.

dogmandan i think talks about running 72v in the cooler months and drops voltage in hotter months but he lives in a desert.

if youre climbing hills you want speed, you dont want to bog down.

my 3540 at 40 amps with 48v or 52v sucked on hills with a low battery. i went with a phaserunner controller because i can run any voltage i want, 48,52,63,72
 
by ebike4healthandfitness » Oct 20 2020 12:08am

john61ct wrote: ↑Oct 19 2020 4:31pm
Plus staying well below the stress-level thresholds, better longevity with less expensive electronics.
I thought higher volts and lower amps actually allow a motor to run cooler than lower voltage and higher amps for any given motor output?

Don't think anyone is trying to talk you out of 72V. It's just that 72V parts cost more and are larger and heavier than the standard 48V counter parts that would work just as well or better.

There is a lot to read on batteries here at ES. What you will find your preference in a short while. If you don't mistreat the batteries they will last a long time years.

Here is my understanding;
Charging to 4.2 and leaving them sit or not using them is bad.
Deep discharging <=3.0 is bad
Storing should be in the middle somewhere. That is what they call the pack. 36V, 48V, 72V.

Most if not everyone will charge up to 4.2V mostly to balance the pack. This is not done very often, could be months or 50 cycles. When a pack is charged up to this level it needs to be used or discharged as when testing. The point is not all the time and never let it stay at this level.

I have a 72V pack and discharging it to 3.0V per cell would be 60V. You don't really know if all the cells discharged evenly 60V is an average. Some might be above 3.0V and some below. Think my cut off is 66V that is 3.3V per cell. There is not much left so why drop some cells below 3.0V.

So now where to charge for daily use. Some EV companies Say 80%, one reason is, it's fast. The closer you get to 100% the slower it gets. If you want to charge it up and let it sit over night or a day or two keep it <4.0. Charge up and ride 4.05 is a good number or 4.1 and 4.15 if you need the extra.

If you need to charge 100% and discharge to 0%, you need a bigger battery. It's all up to you.
 
batteryuniversity.com is no canonical source for details, just decent jargon and general basics orientation.

4.2V is not good for longevity, but there are many other factors much more influential, C-rates and DoD% good examples.

4.0V way too low as I said.

Between 4.15V and 4.05V are the well balanced choices IMO, and the AHT / endamps profile matters in the mix.
 
john61ct said:
4.2V is not good for longevity, but there are many other factors much more influential, C-rates and DoD% good examples.

4.0V way too low as I said.

Between 4.15V and 4.05V are the well balanced choices IMO, and the AHT / endamps profile matters in the mix.

Actually according to Battery University's data 3.9v looks even better than 4.0v:

4.1v gives 600 to 1000 cycles at 85% to 90% capacity
4.0v gives 1200 to 2000 cycles at 70% to 75% capacity
3.9v gives 2400 to 4000 cycles at 60% to 65% capacity

In fact, if charging to 4.1v and if only getting 600 cycles I could see the pack maybe not lasting much more than a year if its for a commuter and needs two charges every work day. In fact, maybe not even a year when the capacity starts dropping enough and then the pack needs to be charged to 4.15v and then finally 4.2v to compensate for the capacity drop.
 
Do not go by Battery Universe
Do an actual search on ES, with Justin_le posts and see what he finds.

ebike4healthandfitness said:
john61ct said:
4.2V is not good for longevity, but there are many other factors much more influential, C-rates and DoD% good examples.

4.0V way too low as I said.

Between 4.15V and 4.05V are the well balanced choices IMO, and the AHT / endamps profile matters in the mix.

Actually according to Battery University's data 3.9v looks even better than 4.0v:

4.1v gives 600 to 1000 cycles at 85% to 90% capacity
4.0v gives 1200 to 2000 cycles at 70% to 75% capacity
3.9v gives 2400 to 4000 cycles at 60% to 65% capacity

In fact, if charging to 4.1v and if only getting 600 cycles I could see the pack maybe not lasting much more than a year if its for a commuter and needs two charges every work day. In fact, maybe not even a year when the capacity starts dropping enough and then the pack needs to be charged to 4.15v and then finally 4.2v to compensate for the capacity drop.
 
Nice discussion, but lets back up a little bit. I'm guessing you want to be street legal in the USA. First of all, in the US, unless the cops know you and are after you, you may not need to be strictly " street legal" at all.

What state are you in? It matters a lot. In New Mexico for example, there is no street legal motorized bike law at all. For me, I have a moped law, which limits me to 50 cc's and 30 mph. Thats it. I can run 2000w all I want. Other states limit the wattage of a motor, meaning the motor rating. Typical motors for bikes are 500w, but we all know then handle 1500w easy.

Lastly,, 750w is not likely to get you 28 mph, unless downwind, or slightly downhill. 20-25 mph, so really,, you don't want 750w max in any circumstances, except if its needed to ride on trails in a national park. To hit that goal, you just want a decent geared hub motor, or much much better for say, moab, a mid drive with a legal motor rating, but give it 1000w at least.

And what kind of ride are you talking about? Is it single track? Is it city? Hell in most cities you just ride less than full throttle, and you can have a 3000w 40 mph bike no problem. Just don't cruise faster than 25 mph, and nobody knows what you got under the hood. Its like going street racing in a ford pinto, but you hid a v 8 under the hood.

I'm not saying you are on the wrong track here though. I built a bike specifically designed to climb the rocky mountains on 1200w of max power measured going into the controller. 22 amps controller, 14s battery, or commonly called 52v. My goal was to reach a max speed of no more than 20 mph, and be able to tow a trailer up the rocky mountains without overheating the motor. 400 pounds max load, bike, a crapton of batteries, trailer, and my fat ass. 20 inch rear wheel, 10t wind, dd, 500w rated motor. "9 continent type".

Its still the best bike I ever built, although the damn things battery did burn my garage to the ground. The slow motor limited my speed, increasing efficiency simply by making throttle creep faster impossible. 18 mph for the bulk of the ride on flat ground, and pulling an actual 800w, it would climb an 8% grade at about 10 mph, yet the slow wind kept it from overheating as a 7t motor would tend to if the climb was long enough, and the load was 400 pounds. In 7 t, youd need to keep it turning more like 14 mph, which would require more like 1500w, using a 40 amps controller. Finished cargo mixte..jpg

So, if I'd run this thing on a 72v 20 amps controller, its top speed would be close to your goal, likely about 25 mph top speed, and its amps about 1500w. Maybe faster leaving the garage, but the meat of the ride 25 mph. Those motors, they like about 1500w max anyway. Sure, they can be run at 3000w for short run, but then they just turn a heck of a lot of it into heat. Just simply not enough copper winding to run so efficient then. So it DOES make sense to limit them to 1500w. Oops, you want 750w. That slow motor on 750w is still not going to cruise at 28 mph, simply because that speed just takes 800-1000w, unless you are that short, and weigh 100 pounds or something.

Best way to beat that limitation is a bent, or semi bent bike, so your wind drag gets less and you hit 28 mph on 600w.

Anyway,, it seems like you want to jump through hoops to meet a law nobody is going to enforce on you. What you want is easily done with a typical geared motor kit. Standard 48v 20-22 amps controller, standard 48v or 52v battery, hits 28 mph out the door, cruises 25 mph most of the ride, climbs hills very well at 12-15 mph, only overheats if the total load goes way over 300 pounds.

Sure, run 72v,, not saying don't. But give it 1500w max, on that "legal" 500w motor.

RE charging, especially if you have a bms, charge it full. Just ride it back down to 4.1v immediately. Its TIME at 4.2v that matters. Charge to 4v overnight, then put the last .2v in just before you ride.
 
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