Middrive e bike v. car drag race

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by Grantmac » Jan 10 2021 2:54pm

Its about how nobody needs to ride anything except steel frames road bikes from the 90s, if that doesn't work where you ride then you aren't a proper bicyclist anyways and are just playing around.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by Chalo » Jan 10 2021 2:55pm

speedyebikenoob wrote:
Jan 10 2021 2:12pm
Jeez um, I have no idea what this thread is about anymore
Guys talking about fad stuff like it's necessary.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by donn » Jan 10 2021 4:26pm

Just scanning the first page, it was never real clearly about anything in particular, but it was a fairly genuine discussion until we started in with stories along the lines of "serious bikers" do this and that, and people who aren't into those things "don't want to acknowledge" that, and so forth. Had we just continued with a rambling discussion marginally related to the OP and steered clear of the "you all are wrong and in denial about it" section, not sure it would have gotten to page 2.

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 2:19am

serious_sam wrote:
Jan 09 2021 5:50pm
You've been on a roll up to this point. But this comment is pure bullshit. Get down off your high horse.
I worked as a tech, so I think I'm entitled to share my opinion on it. Tech jobs didn't (and don't, to my knowledge) cover health insurance and match retirement contributions. The only way to make it is to open your own shop.

Working as a tech was a great job, but it was just that: a job, not a career. Nobody works as a tech for 40 years if they have the knowledge, skill, and ability to do otherwise -- like open his/her own shop, work for a manufacturer, etc.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 2:37am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 10 2021 2:55pm
Guys talking about fad stuff like it's necessary.
You get pushback on this because nobody said it was necessary, least of all necessary for you. You're arguing for the sake of argument.

And while you may regard the trickledown of tech from motorcycle to mountain bikes to road bikes as unnecessary "fad stuff," this isn't a bike forum. You're posting on a forum dedicated to turning bicycles into.. light electric motorcycles. So even though I ride rim brakes and bolt-on axles, I regard hydraulic discs and thru-axles as quite relevant and desirable, as should everyone else pushing into light e-moto territory. Everyone that values safety, at least.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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serious_sam   10 kW

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by serious_sam » Jan 11 2021 4:26am

fatty wrote:
Jan 11 2021 2:19am
I worked as a tech, so I think I'm entitled to share my opinion on it. Tech jobs didn't (and don't, to my knowledge) cover health insurance and match retirement contributions. The only way to make it is to open your own shop.
Ah, I see.
Last edited by serious_sam on Jan 11 2021 4:46am, edited 1 time in total.

fatty   100 W

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 4:32am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 09 2021 11:59pm
After a handful of tech startups, and being employee #5 at one of the high profile private space programs you have heard of, I decided I was retired. So I retired to what I had been doing for a long time at my own expense... making and fixing bikes.

I had the new richest man in the world introduced to me personally by the previous richest man in the world, in my machine shop.

What I do now is of more lasting value.
Then you're clearly more than a bike tech. It's fortunate to have accomplished colleagues on this forum, but makes your dismissal of modern tech all the more inexplicable.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by Chalo » Jan 11 2021 4:49am

fatty wrote:
Jan 11 2021 4:32am
It's fortunate to have accomplished colleagues on this forum, but makes your dismissal of modern tech all the more inexplicable.
It's not modern. Most of it's just mundane motor vehicle tech fetishistically misappropriated for bikes.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 5:38am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 11 2021 4:49am
It's not modern. Most of it's just mundane motor vehicle tech fetishistically misappropriated for bikes.
Maybe at first, when it was fringe. But that's where all the R&D went. That's where all the manufacturing went.
When that tech trickles down to mainstream, when it becomes commodity -- and thus when your tech becomes obsolete (even if just by market forces) and thus expensive "vintage" -- it's time to take the blinders off and reassess.
As always: the best product for the task and time at hand.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by donn » Jan 11 2021 10:57am

fatty wrote:
Jan 11 2021 2:37am
And while you may regard the trickledown of tech from motorcycle to mountain bikes to road bikes as unnecessary "fad stuff," this isn't a bike forum. You're posting on a forum dedicated to turning bicycles into.. light electric motorcycles. So even though I ride rim brakes and bolt-on axles, I regard hydraulic discs and thru-axles as quite relevant and desirable, as should everyone else pushing into light e-moto territory. Everyone that values safety, at least.
Or is it a forum where I often see the regulars trying to talk some sense into people who drop in with questions about using a bicycle as a platform for a motorcycle? The only official documentation of what it's dedicated to, is "General Discussion about electric bicycles."

There's just about zero chance that I'm going be riding disk brakes or a thru-axle, but I have at least a slightly open mind about it. If people want to talk about the merits of motorcycle technology on a bicycle, excellent. Just be prepared. You know it isn't just a couple people here, it's what I would call common knowledge that, for example, the need for disk brakes is way oversold in the bicycle world. If it's time for a "lively discussion" over that, fine. If you hold it up as a sacred cow, though, you know what's going to happen - there are going to be a couple of those guys who bring barbecue sauce to the discussion.

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by MadRhino » Jan 11 2021 1:05pm

Hydro brakes are not motorcycle tech anymore, for quite a while. Hydro brakes are designed specifically for various cycling disciplines. I wouldn’t say that every ebike does need them, but for fast ebikes it is a major safety issue.

This discussion had been recurrent on ES for over a decade, because many are seeing only their personal riding speed, terrain and habits. Some just can’t figure out what it is to brake a bike from 60 mph in emergency situation.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by donn » Jan 11 2021 1:44pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jan 11 2021 1:05pm
Some just can’t figure out what it is to brake a bike from 60 mph in emergency situation.
Anyone who needs to worry about braking from 60 MPH, needs to be looking beyond bicycle technology (including apparel.)

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 2:46pm

donn wrote:
Jan 11 2021 10:57am
Or is it a forum where I often see the regulars trying to talk some sense into people who drop in with questions about using a bicycle as a platform for a motorcycle? The only official documentation of what it's dedicated to, is "General Discussion about electric bicycles."
Maybe this subforum, but ES is the "Electric Vehicle" forum.

And questions about using a bicycle as a platform for a motorcycle are desirable, but dismissing the idea out-of-hand is unhelpful. The first motorcycles were built on.. you guessed it: bicycles. Not to mention ICE motorized bicycles are still built on bicycles. We are those tinkerers -- those pioneers -- pushing the envelope.

There is nothing inherently problematic with using a bicycle as a platform for a motorcycle. Even Walmart BSOs are generally rated to 125kg rider weight. So if the frame is strong enough, the safety concerns become axles (thru-axles) and wheels (Boost flange spacing), braking consistently from greater speed (hydraulic discs), and lights to see and be seen. Drivetrain reliability and battery protection are tertiary safety concerns.

Likewise, there are no characteristics of "suitcase" bikes or even motorcycle frames that make them inherently more appropriate for a light electric motorcycle. As recently pointed out (including by Chalo), "suitcase" bikes have unknown R&D vetting, and they're heavier, increasing stress on all components and harder to handle and stop.


I argue that such "modern tech" (often originating in DH and DJ/Freestyle) is exactly that needed for a safe light electric vehicle. It's just bizarre to me that it is so often dismissed.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by donn » Jan 11 2021 3:53pm

fatty wrote:
Jan 11 2021 2:46pm
So if the frame is strong enough, the safety concerns become axles (thru-axles) and wheels (Boost flange spacing), braking consistently from greater speed (hydraulic discs), and lights to see and be seen. Drivetrain reliability and battery protection are tertiary safety concerns.
For braking at motor vehicle speeds, would you not be concerned about bicycle tires? Breaking loose is certainly a concern for motorcyclists, with much better tires than could be installed on an ordinary bicycle. Would you worry about "endo" front wheel lockups? Would you expect bicycle riders to wear armor that can hold up to high speed pavement surfing?

I don't know. I mean sure, there's bound to be an element that does this sort of thing, and they have a lot of fun here on the sphere, but as any kind of standard for what electric bicycles are about, I can see why some people might dismiss it.

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by serious_sam » Jan 11 2021 4:07pm

donn wrote:
Jan 11 2021 3:53pm
I don't know.
Exactly.

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by Grantmac » Jan 11 2021 4:16pm

Even at 30mph you may need proper brakes if the terrain you are on is steep enough. I know I'm rarely faster than 20-25mph where I ride but I'm regularly running a 9" disc setup to the point where it's too hot to touch.

In much the same way that people don't understand the need for a dropper or suspension because the biggest descent they've ever seen is a curb.

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by Chalo » Jan 11 2021 4:23pm

Grantmac wrote:
Jan 11 2021 4:16pm
Even at 30mph you may need proper brakes if the terrain you are on is steep enough. I know I'm rarely faster than 20-25mph where I ride but I'm regularly running a 9" disc setup to the point where it's too hot to touch.
Even a road caliper brake can stand a bike on its front wheel. There is no more braking to be had after that.

If your brake rotor were 500 to 900g of aluminum, measuring 622mm in diameter, then it wouldn't be too hot to touch at those times.

There are valid reasons to use disc brakes. But in those cases, I'll point out that you will never boil a cable, or have it leak out at an inopportune time, or become compromised by air.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 4:55pm

donn wrote:
Jan 11 2021 3:53pm
For braking at motor vehicle speeds, would you not be concerned about bicycle tires? Breaking loose is certainly a concern for motorcyclists, with much better tires than could be installed on an ordinary bicycle. Would you worry about "endo" front wheel lockups? Would you expect bicycle riders to wear armor that can hold up to high speed pavement surfing?
Yes, I'm concerned about bicycle tires.

But having built and raced ICE street bikes, I disagree that "breaking loose" is a concern for street motorcyclists -- push or wash out in a knee-dragging turn, sure. But motorcycle tires are not "much better" than bike tires. They simply have wildly different design criteria. In fact, I've researched and posted about the closest available motorcycle tires, MH90-21 and 80/90-21. They're rated to 130mph and 212kg load each, and last for 25,000 miles without punctures that would flat a tube bike tire. Consequently, they're much less compliant and massively heavier, and that increased rotational inertia makes them harder to handle and brake. I would expect a bike tire to have greater traction capacity than an equivalent motorcycle tire. I think the best compromise is E50-rated ebike tires.

In fact, I would worry greatly if a bike or moto couldn't endo/stoppie. Endo indicates sufficient braking force to lock the front wheel, and sufficient front tire grip to transfer all vehicle weight to the front tire under maximum braking effort. These are good things, not a mechanical problem -- a bike that can endo can stop in a shorter distance than one which can't. Avoiding going over the bars is a training and practice issue.

Finally, yes, such ebike riders should evaluate their protection/convenience apparel the same as a light motorcycle rider should.
donn wrote:
Jan 11 2021 3:53pm
I don't know. I mean sure, there's bound to be an element that does this sort of thing, and they have a lot of fun here on the sphere, but as any kind of standard for what electric bicycles are about, I can see why some people might dismiss it.
That element is here on ES, which is why we're discussing it. Yes, such ideas could be dismissed for standard ebikes sold at Walmart, but this isn't Walmart or an ebike shop. It's ES.
Last edited by fatty on Jan 11 2021 5:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 5:15pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 11 2021 4:23pm
Even a road caliper brake can stand a bike on its front wheel. There is no more braking to be had after that.

If your brake rotor were 500 to 900g of aluminum, measuring 622mm in diameter, then it wouldn't be too hot to touch at those times.
This is nonsensically, dangerously wrong.
Ability to endo in a single max braking event on flat ground wasn't the question. He specifically stated downhill, where rim-brake surfaces got hot enough to first fade, then soften, and finally fail catastrophically.

You're either patently ignorant of disciplines outside 1980s low-speed casual street, or deliberately trolling.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by Chalo » Jan 11 2021 5:54pm

fatty wrote:
Jan 11 2021 5:15pm
Chalo wrote:
Jan 11 2021 4:23pm
Even a road caliper brake can stand a bike on its front wheel. There is no more braking to be had after that.

If your brake rotor were 500 to 900g of aluminum, measuring 622mm in diameter, then it wouldn't be too hot to touch at those times.
This is nonsensically, dangerously wrong.
Ability to endo in a single max braking event on flat ground wasn't the question. He specifically stated downhill, where rim-brake surfaces got hot enough to first fade, then soften, and finally fail catastrophically.

You're either patently ignorant of disciplines outside 1980s low-speed casual street, or deliberately trolling.
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes, such as the Gustav M that MadRhino likes so much. But I suggest that those are ordinary rims, and if you're looking for utmost, there are better rims for the job than the ones that were tested.

Aluminum has much higher specific heat, and there's more of it in a rim than there is stainless steel in any brake rotor. It has more surface area exposed to airflow. You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs. You might score some dude-brah points, but there a trade-off for that.

There are some good reasons to use discs, though. I have a few on my bikes, where the tires are fat enough to be a hassle for rim brakes, and drums aren't feasible.

However, using hydraulics where a cable works just as well is pointless moto-fetishism for sure. That confers more cost, maintenance, points of failure, modes of failure, tools and chemicals necessary, proprietary components, sources of contamination, etc., etc. And after all that, your brake only does the same thing it would have done with a cable.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by MadRhino » Jan 11 2021 6:15pm

donn wrote:
Jan 11 2021 1:44pm
MadRhino wrote:
Jan 11 2021 1:05pm
Some just can’t figure out what it is to brake a bike from 60 mph in emergency situation.
Anyone who needs to worry about braking from 60 MPH, needs to be looking beyond bicycle technology (including apparel.)
Come on! I have been riding a bicycle 60 mph long before ebikes. A 60 mph top speed is not so uncommon for DIY ebikes today. Only here on ES we are well over a hundred to beat that speed building exclusively with bicycle components.

As for apparel, that is another story. Each his own concern. I have been riding bulls with a straw hat, and if I am now riding bikes with a helmet it is only a matter of law enforcement. where I live. The only protections I always ride with are gloves, boots and glasses. Then, I will never tell anyone but a child how to protect himself. My concern is only about the safe performance of the bike: Handling fine, braking short, not going to fall apart on a bump...

You see? That is a matter of perception. Safety is an illusion that is subjective to each individuals.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by MadRhino » Jan 11 2021 6:47pm

@Chalo
Braking short is a matter of modulation, and good hydro brakes have the best tunable modulation, operated using one finger. I just don’t like using both hands on a brake lever to slow down my bike before cornering downhill, and I hate a rim brake when the rim is not perfect, wet, or the wheel off perfect trueing.

Bicycle rims are unreliable as braking components for the speed and terrain that many of us are riding. Even for those riding within rim brake safety conditions, a good hydro brake is so much more comfortable to use, that for many riders it is well worth the money, and the effort to learn maintaining them.

Brakes are a matter of personal requirements and preferences just like a saddle, except that a saddle won’t save your life.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by donn » Jan 11 2021 6:49pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jan 11 2021 6:15pm
Only here on ES we are well over a hundred to beat that speed building exclusively with bicycle components.
Over a hundred! Holy mackerel! That must be just about everyone there is!

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by MadRhino » Jan 11 2021 6:57pm

donn wrote:
Jan 11 2021 6:49pm
MadRhino wrote:
Jan 11 2021 6:15pm
Only here on ES we are well over a hundred to beat that speed building exclusively with bicycle components.
Over a hundred! Holy mackerel! That must be just about everyone there is!
I suggest that you have a look at how many members we have on ES. :D

Only in my neighborhood we are 3 with fast ebikes doing above 60 mph. Then, the Sphere is big.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Middrive e bike v. car drag race

Post by speedyebikenoob » Jan 12 2021 1:02am

Really not sure why 60 mph would be a big deal on e bikes if non motorized bicyclists hit those speeds regularly downhill on stock bikes?

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