I need a light enduro frame for next build....

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pullin-gs   100 W

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I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by pullin-gs » Jan 04 2021 9:31am

I want enclosed battery and enduro look with175mm dropout swingarm.
Vector light comes to mind, but swingarm is only 135mm dropout....and rear swingarm a looks a bit shaky?
What other options are out there?
Not looking for speed, just something to explore Central Florida State Park fire roads (packed sand/gravel).
Would be mounting up a 1000W geared motor of some sort (Bafang RM-062-1000 variant on short-list).

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Overclocker   10 kW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by Overclocker » Jan 05 2021 2:43am

IMG_20201130_091947.jpg
IMG_20201130_091947.jpg (457.98 KiB) Viewed 631 times
i got a vector light 135mm swingarm. i think there's a wider version. swingarm looks thin but is triangulated, so is actually very strong. i picked a DD hub (QS 205 35h), a small geared hub might be too weak for this kind of build

fitting nicely inside are a 17s6p 18650 pack and a really small but powerful for its size kelly KLS7212

pullin-gs   100 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by pullin-gs » Jan 05 2021 1:21pm

Very nice!
I have two options it looks like:
#1) Go hard-tail with fat-tire rear tire.....benifits: frames are cheap and plentiful. Disadvantages: I dont get enduro look and concealment (show-stopper) of battery/etc. not seamless.
#2) Go DD motor using Vector light frame...benifits: I get the light/stealth look I want. Disadvantages:Costs go up a bit and has DD drive.
I have my heart set on a geared-hub, so will see if another frame option pops up. Wide swingarm option is not wide enough and adds $199 to frame cost.
At the moment my target wattage for geared motor shoe-horns me into pig-heavy enduro frames with geared hubs. :-(
I've got questions about your build. I'll take them over to your build thread.
Thanks.
P

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 05 2021 2:07pm

What battery the heart of the system are you going to use and what controller ? Geared no motors can melt So can D.D. but can take watts more power.

pullin-gs   100 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by pullin-gs » Jan 05 2021 5:01pm

Check this out.....
Here is the "Fat" version of Light frame: https://eleek.com.ua/en/item/tovar-11-2-1-1-1-1/
I'll buy it from Vector today if they can source if for same price as 135mm Light version. :-)
P

Nixunen   10 mW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by Nixunen » Jan 06 2021 3:49am

I have "fat version" of Vector Light frame.
I use 20s7p battery.
134986289_10221717962593072_3366778567552351803_o.jpg
134986289_10221717962593072_3366778567552351803_o.jpg (655 KiB) Viewed 543 times

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by Chalo » Jan 06 2021 5:07am

Um. "I want a lighter version of a pig-heavy and ugly bike because I prefer it to be ugly."

Bikes-- regular bikes-- are light by design. Suitcase bikes are heavy because they aren't regular bikes, and they don't have 150+ years of refinement behind them. In fact, they have none. They only have a suitcase full of batteries, and useless extra weight.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 06 2021 8:58am

Why the 175mm dropout ? Chalo I think it started 203 years ago.

pullin-gs   100 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by pullin-gs » Jan 06 2021 11:02am

999zip999 wrote:
Jan 06 2021 8:58am
Why the 175mm dropout ?
1000W geared Motor requires 175mm dropout.
motor.jpg
motor.jpg (78.05 KiB) Viewed 498 times
This build is engineered to be a woods-bike for Florida forest roads and trails. Trails are often loose sand.
I want slow-speed torque offered by this geared motor. Also want fat rear tire.
Dirt bikes (prefered my KLX250, but cant use it) illegal in FL state and national forest bike trails, and must be plated for forest roads.
Other option is ebike....although will be pressing FL legal e-bike definition a bit. :-)
Nixunen wrote:
Jan 06 2021 3:49am
I have "fat version" of Vector Light frame.
I use 20s7p battery.
Nixunen, which motor and controller? All-in weight? What rims? Thanks. Nice build BTW. Very nice.

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 06 2021 11:15am

Fits a cassette and the disconnect helps in removing rear tire

pullin-gs   100 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by pullin-gs » Jan 06 2021 12:01pm

999zip999 wrote:
Jan 06 2021 11:15am
Fits a cassette and the disconnect helps in removing rear tire
Note the power cable is not run through middle of axle. Much stronger.

Nixunen   10 mW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by Nixunen » Jan 06 2021 2:43pm

I use mxus 3k 3000w "fatbike clone" motor. Controller is Nucular 12F. Rims are from Robsson. 26" and 80mm wide. I use 4" tyres at front and back. Wider tyres works also, but i like that size. https://www.robsson.de/en/wide-rims/

pullin-gs   100 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by pullin-gs » Jan 06 2021 3:17pm

Nixunen wrote:
Jan 06 2021 2:43pm
I use mxus 3k 3000w "fatbike clone" motor. Controller is Nucular 12F. Rims are from Robsson. 26" and 80mm wide. I use 4" tyres at front and back. Wider tyres works also, but i like that size. https://www.robsson.de/en/wide-rims/
Thanks for the details.

markz   100 GW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by markz » Jan 06 2021 4:31pm

All that added weight of an Enduro ebike with such a small, low power hub motor.
You should look at going mid drive BBSHD/C3kw or Leaf 1500W, MXUS/QS 3kw for forestry back country riding.

pullin-gs   100 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by pullin-gs » Jan 06 2021 4:47pm

markz wrote:
Jan 06 2021 4:31pm
All that added weight of an Enduro ebike with such a small, low power hub motor.
You should look at going mid drive BBSHD/C3kw or Leaf 1500W, MXUS/QS 3kw for forestry back country riding.
Did you read my post?
I said:
"I need a light enduro frame for next build..."
---and----
"Not looking for speed"

With that said, maybe you have an on-topic comment or suggestion vs recommend a 4.2 horsepower 32 pound boat-anchor DD motor?

PS: You say "All that added weight of Enduro".....you do realize that the enduro builds do not need to be heavy?
This enduro frame and swingarm weighs in at only 13 lbs. https://eleek.com.ua/en/item/tovar-11-2-1-1-1-1/

PSS: Mountain bikers typically get around the forest pretty well with just 200 average watts at the wheel human power. I figure 1000W will do quite nicely on a well engineered E-bike platform.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by Chalo » Jan 06 2021 5:59pm

pullin-gs wrote:
Jan 06 2021 4:47pm
markz wrote:
Jan 06 2021 4:31pm
All that added weight of an Enduro ebike with such a small, low power hub motor.
You should look at going mid drive BBSHD/C3kw or Leaf 1500W, MXUS/QS 3kw for forestry back country riding.
Did you read my post?
I said:
"I need a light enduro frame for next build..."
---and----
"Not looking for speed"
I think it's fair to compare the geared fatbike motor to the next closest thing markz mentioned (Leaf 1500W).

The fatbike motor is lighter by about five pounds. That's significant, but it comes with tradeoffs. It's less efficient, so easier to overheat, and it rejects heat a lot more slowly than the Leaf motor. At 85Nm max torque, it has about 20% less than the Leaf's maximum, and more risk of heat damage when using its torque to the utmost.

The Bafang hub will build up into a much stronger, more reliable wheel, like for like, with more lateral bracing than the Leaf. That's a bigger deal than most people appreciate.

Bafang's motor is restricted to just the one winding, so you have to govern speed by changing voltage. Leaf is available with whatever winding you request, so they can tailor the motor to deliver optimum torque and efficiency at your desired RPM, without having to use unorthodox voltage.

It could require more current to get the best out of the Leaf motor, which might mean it takes more battery and controller to do the job. Choosing a high turn count winding can help mitigate this.

Even though the Leaf motor is very efficient, it's still kind of a bummer to pedal around when not powering it. The geared Bafang motor has an overrunning clutch, so it coasts much more freely (though still not as freely as a normal bicycle hub).

Overall, I think the geared hub motor is a better fit to your application, assuming you don't flog it too hard. But either one could be entirely satisfactory with the right setup.
Mountain bikers typically get around the forest pretty well with just 200 average watts at the wheel human power.
That's average. Peak power for even a casual MTBer can easily exceed 1000W at times. That's one way in which a box-framed "enduro" bike can come up short, because it impairs effective pedaling by being too wide and ergonomically dorked up. A fit MTB rider may have more total wattage available than you do, to muscle up abrupt rises or through soft spots.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

fatty   10 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 3:34am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 06 2021 5:59pm
Peak power for even a casual MTBer can easily exceed 1000W at times.
Otherwise helpful analysis, but this is incorrect. No casual MTBer can exceed 1000W, let alone "easily".
Casual rider would have less than 10W/kg 5s and 5W/kg 1min sprint. 500W 5s and 250W 1min sprint for a 100kg rider.

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by fatty » Jan 11 2021 3:50am

pullin-gs wrote:
Jan 05 2021 1:21pm
#1) Go hard-tail with fat-tire rear tire.....Disadvantages: I dont get enduro look and concealment (show-stopper) of battery/etc. not seamless.
#2) Go DD motor using Vector light frame...benifits: I get the light/stealth look I want.
Chalo wrote:
Jan 06 2021 5:07am
Um. "I want a lighter version of a pig-heavy and ugly bike because I prefer it to be ugly."

Bikes-- regular bikes-- are light by design. Suitcase bikes are heavy because they aren't regular bikes, and they don't have 150+ years of refinement behind them. In fact, they have none. They only have a suitcase full of batteries, and useless extra weight.
pullin-gs wrote:
Jan 06 2021 4:47pm
markz wrote:
Jan 06 2021 4:31pm
All that added weight of an Enduro ebike with such a small, low power hub motor.
Did you read my post?
I said:
"I need a light enduro frame for next build..."
---and----
"Not looking for speed"

With that said, maybe you have an on-topic comment or suggestion vs recommend a 4.2 horsepower 32 pound boat-anchor DD motor?

PS: You say "All that added weight of Enduro".....you do realize that the enduro builds do not need to be heavy?
This enduro frame and swingarm weighs in at only 13 lbs. https://eleek.com.ua/en/item/tovar-11-2-1-1-1-1/
I have to agree with Chalo and markz.
There is nothing light/stealth look to Vector, nor does it conceal the battery -- the whole frame is battery.
And it is intended for 10-15kW.

Eleek 13lbs is double what an equivalent bike frame weighs.

Neither make sense for 1kW. Use an actual light frame for 1kW.

pullin-gs   100 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by pullin-gs » Jan 12 2021 10:05am

Vector no longer has "light" frame in stock. Their supplier (Eleeke) does not even have it. They seem to be focusing on heavier frame options.
Change of plan: Looking at fat MTB options now that have 190mm offset.
Mongoose Hitch fat MTB ($300 bike from walmart...ditch everything but frame) steel donor frame would work in pinch.
Having trouble finding 26 inch wheel 19-inch Aluminum with 190mm offsets.
Would have liked to go this route, but is only 170mm offset:
https://www.framedbikes.com/products/fr ... -frame-kit

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by MadRhino » Jan 12 2021 6:22pm

In MTB bicycle frames, a light enduro is 8 lbs including hardware, shock and BB. And, it does ride damn good as compared to a box frame.

Image
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

fatty   10 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by fatty » Jan 13 2021 4:37pm

pullin-gs wrote:
Jan 12 2021 10:05am
Vector no longer has "light" frame in stock. Their supplier (Eleeke) does not even have it. They seem to be focusing on heavier frame options.
Change of plan: Looking at fat MTB options now that have 190mm offset.
Mongoose Hitch fat MTB ($300 bike from walmart...ditch everything but frame) steel donor frame would work in pinch.
Having trouble finding 26 inch wheel 19-inch Aluminum with 190mm offsets.
Would have liked to go this route, but is only 170mm offset:
https://www.framedbikes.com/products/fr ... -frame-kit
What is 190mm offest? Do you mean 190mm rear (frame/hub) spacing?

If you don't need gears, Walmart also has the equivalent Dynacraft Krusher for $200.

markz   100 GW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by markz » Jan 13 2021 5:16pm

My initial thoughts of the OP when I first read this thread, and rereading the thread.

With such a heavy frame choice, and very small power I thought maybe the OP was concerned about the legislation for where he lives. Florida states 750W, then theres all that sillyness about classes of ebike :roll:

pullin-gs - "#1) Go hard-tail with fat-tire rear tire"
Unless you are riding conditions for a fat tire bike, I'd stay clear of fat bikes especially in Florida because I doubt you will be riding beaches most of the time, or muddy swamp land.

"This build is engineered to be a woods-bike for Florida forest roads and trails. Trails are often loose sand.
I want slow-speed torque offered by this geared motor. Also want fat rear tire.
Dirt bikes (prefered my KLX250, but cant use it) illegal in FL state and national forest bike trails, and must be plated for forest roads.
Other option is ebike....although will be pressing FL legal e-bike definition a bit."

So yeah I pegged it right from the top didnt I. However, even at 1kw, you'd be illegal because Florida is 750W.
I like the comment on must be plated for forest roads. LOLOLOL Then you want a motorcycle looking ebike with no plates on it.
I like the comment on pressing FL e-bike definition a bit, so you arent a Briton scared of the Bobbies. Aus, NZ seem to be the same. Whats the appetite for ebikes in Florida? Bunch of old people right? Bunch of crazy people right because of the countless Florida Man stories. Isnt there some very loose drinking n driving laws where you can drive a scooter or something. I'd kinda assume Fla is loose but depends on the district I guess, if the donut shop was open or not. Who knows.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by MadRhino » Jan 13 2021 8:36pm

At any place, you are better with bicycle looks and high power, than motorcycle looks and legal power.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

fatty   10 W

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Re: I need a light enduro frame for next build....

Post by fatty » Jan 15 2021 3:43pm

markz wrote:
Jan 13 2021 5:16pm
Unless you are riding conditions for a fat tire bike, I'd stay clear of fat bikes especially in Florida because I doubt you will be riding beaches most of the time, or muddy swamp land.

...So yeah I pegged it right from the top didnt I. However, even at 1kw, you'd be illegal because Florida is 750W.
I like the comment on must be plated for forest roads. LOLOLOL Then you want a motorcycle looking ebike with no plates on it.
While I don't like the bulk of a fat frame, I think they're otherwise ideal for ebikes. Correct chainstay length and width for motorcycle rims and tires with full fenders/mudguards, and wide hubs with wide spoke flange spacing improve bracing angle/triangulation, allowing stronger wheels for the same weight, or lighter wheels for the same strength.

But yeah, you pretty much called it.

MadRhino wrote:
Jan 13 2021 8:36pm
At any place, you are better with bicycle looks and high power, than motorcycle looks and legal power.
Agreed -- not just for the rider himself, but for all of us.

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