Jerome Daoust
100 W
[url=http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/msg/7a56aa6fcecb31c8 said:
Tired of listening to high gas price wishers
- Thread starter Jerome Daoust
- Start date
heathyoung
100 kW
Yep - It kinda sucks when you cant ride becuase of the weather, or what you have to carry etc etc - You can't be quite so smug then...
liveforphysics
100 TW
I would like to see gas prices reach $10-15/gal.
The reason is to cause more people to make logic based decisions in vehicle choices rather than buying absurdly stupid vehicles. AKA, replace the SUVs with wagons and hatchbacks. If I can haul engines and trannys, or 2 e-bikes in my civic hatch, have seating for 5, get 40mpg, and be faster than new RT chargers and Mustangs and vettes, then it seems very silly to have our vehicles limited to the crap we have for sale here.
When I don't need to carry more than 1 passenger, I take my Honda Insight and get around 65-70mpg. I also moved to live just a few miles from my place of work to shorten my commute. If fuel prices increase by a large amount, more people will begin to make these types of decisions, and choose not to drive 80miles to work each way by themselves in a SUV. People like to think they "can't" make changes to improve there commute for whatever reasons. They can, they just haven't been adequately motivated. This would provide financial motivation to help people make changes in there life that are better for our economy and the environment.
It will also make some carbon neutral fuel choices come into use that would otherwise never be adopted due to the lower cost and availability of gasoline.
All of these things will result in less of the money in our country being sent to various OPEC countries. It seems I don't like the idea of the economy of the US being sent overseas to boost OPEC countries economies rather than that money staying in the US economy.
Bio-diesel (and other alternatives) will rapidly replace dinosaur diesel the moment that the cost of it becomes cheaper. Research and development of additional bio-fuels will finally be taken seriously.
The world will not switch to E-bikes, though I think the use of them will increase for people with short commutes in good climates. People will finally have motivation to look at life choices that reduce the demand on petroleum (very good thing).
It will place some awkward shifting in the way the US economy and transporation functions, and naturally there will be some strong initial pains and re-structuring. However, the sooner it happens, the sooner will be better prepared and better equipped as a country to handle the times when petroleum begins to be in short supply.
Good for the environment immediately, good for the US economy in the long-run, a hard blow to the US economy in the short-run, but worth the struggles to be better prepared for the long-run.
My $0.02
-Luke
The reason is to cause more people to make logic based decisions in vehicle choices rather than buying absurdly stupid vehicles. AKA, replace the SUVs with wagons and hatchbacks. If I can haul engines and trannys, or 2 e-bikes in my civic hatch, have seating for 5, get 40mpg, and be faster than new RT chargers and Mustangs and vettes, then it seems very silly to have our vehicles limited to the crap we have for sale here.
When I don't need to carry more than 1 passenger, I take my Honda Insight and get around 65-70mpg. I also moved to live just a few miles from my place of work to shorten my commute. If fuel prices increase by a large amount, more people will begin to make these types of decisions, and choose not to drive 80miles to work each way by themselves in a SUV. People like to think they "can't" make changes to improve there commute for whatever reasons. They can, they just haven't been adequately motivated. This would provide financial motivation to help people make changes in there life that are better for our economy and the environment.
It will also make some carbon neutral fuel choices come into use that would otherwise never be adopted due to the lower cost and availability of gasoline.
All of these things will result in less of the money in our country being sent to various OPEC countries. It seems I don't like the idea of the economy of the US being sent overseas to boost OPEC countries economies rather than that money staying in the US economy.
Bio-diesel (and other alternatives) will rapidly replace dinosaur diesel the moment that the cost of it becomes cheaper. Research and development of additional bio-fuels will finally be taken seriously.
The world will not switch to E-bikes, though I think the use of them will increase for people with short commutes in good climates. People will finally have motivation to look at life choices that reduce the demand on petroleum (very good thing).
It will place some awkward shifting in the way the US economy and transporation functions, and naturally there will be some strong initial pains and re-structuring. However, the sooner it happens, the sooner will be better prepared and better equipped as a country to handle the times when petroleum begins to be in short supply.
Good for the environment immediately, good for the US economy in the long-run, a hard blow to the US economy in the short-run, but worth the struggles to be better prepared for the long-run.
My $0.02
-Luke
IMO Charaterizing transportation choices as an "either-or" proposition is probably unrealistic and a bit specious. The vast majority of people who own bicycles (in the US) also have a car. Of those who use their bike for transportation (not just for fun) many (if not most) also have cars. I don't see why that would change when gas gets REALLY expensive as we'll still need cars. The type of car may change. The type of bike might change. But most people will continue to use their cars as the primary transportation solution and pay any amount for the gas. That's just they way it is. But.......folks will rethink how they use their cars and look for ways to shave dollars off the gas bill. To think that people will just simply buy another car is probably not realistic either. How many of us can just go out and but a car these days? Then, someone who never before thought of riding a bike may consider riding a bike a couple miles to the local grocery store to be a sensible idea (if only during part of the year). I mean why not? A few bucks saved is a few bucks saved. And it's a hell of a lot cheaper buy a bike than a new (or used) car. I don't see bikes/ebikes displacing all those cars on the road for every sutuation. But for the situatiuations where they do...why not?
I think we are entering a time where people are likely to be (or already are) somewhat conservative with their money. The economy is not likely to come roaring back and credit will be tight for quite a while. As energy gets more expensive commodity prices are likely to fluctuate and spike which will ripple throughout the economy and show up in the prices businesses charge for their stuff. A clear ROI will be needed before someone splits with their cold hard cash for most anything let alone transportation. IMO For ebikes to trully gain some traction and be accepted by the mainstream they will need to pass this hurdle.
I feel no need to wish for expensive gas to drive people to alternatives. It will happen anyways whether we wish for it or not.
I think we are entering a time where people are likely to be (or already are) somewhat conservative with their money. The economy is not likely to come roaring back and credit will be tight for quite a while. As energy gets more expensive commodity prices are likely to fluctuate and spike which will ripple throughout the economy and show up in the prices businesses charge for their stuff. A clear ROI will be needed before someone splits with their cold hard cash for most anything let alone transportation. IMO For ebikes to trully gain some traction and be accepted by the mainstream they will need to pass this hurdle.
I feel no need to wish for expensive gas to drive people to alternatives. It will happen anyways whether we wish for it or not.
zx6rj1
1 W
There was a time when petrol is cheaper than bottled water...
Now that's ridiculous :lol:
I used to ride my motorbike the whole year. Now I changed to eBike and do the same. Rain, hail, or shine baby !
Now that's ridiculous :lol:
I used to ride my motorbike the whole year. Now I changed to eBike and do the same. Rain, hail, or shine baby !
WonderProfessor
100 W
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2009
- Messages
- 126
Actually, the experience of the summer of 2008 showed that it is not "just they way it is" here in the U.S. As gas peaked close to US$5 per gallon, the number of cars on the road diminished, the number of miles diminished, and the speed of vehicles diminished. Sadly, when gas prices fell, people went right back to their old habits. It seems we have very short memories coupled with an insatiable appetite for octane -- as long as it is at the right price.mclovin said:
I, too, wish we didn't have to have expensive gas to drive people to alternatives, but it seems to be the only way for us to change our behaviors. And change we must! We have no other choice. We are not running out of oil but we are running out of cheap oil. As you say, it [higher gas prices] will happen anyways whether we wish for it or not.mclovin said:
liveforphysics
100 TW
McLovin- awesome username. I think we are both in the seattle area. I don't know how much driving you do, but during those times with 5$/gal fuel, traffic was like weekend traffic, but during the week. The busses actually were full most hours of the day rather than only full for a little blip during rush hour, and nearly empty the rest of the time. Car dealerships couldn't give away idotic vehicles like giant SUVs, and the prices for old used geo metros trippled on craigslist, because demand was very hight for anything that didn't burn loads of fuel. The car pool lane had more cars than regular lanes, because people were actually putting more than 1 person in there cars with them.
Overall, I was pretty damn impressed. That's a lot of positive changes that happened in just a 1-2 month period. Yes, people were bitching endlessly about fuel prices, but they found ways to adapt and in the process they were improving the enviroment, and keeping more money IN our economy, rather than sending it all away to gold-plate sand dunes.
IMO, that was all proof of people making changes for the best, and all inspired by just an extra couple bucks per gallon.
My $0.02
-Luke
Overall, I was pretty damn impressed. That's a lot of positive changes that happened in just a 1-2 month period. Yes, people were bitching endlessly about fuel prices, but they found ways to adapt and in the process they were improving the enviroment, and keeping more money IN our economy, rather than sending it all away to gold-plate sand dunes.
IMO, that was all proof of people making changes for the best, and all inspired by just an extra couple bucks per gallon.
My $0.02
-Luke
First off, thanks for the feedback. Other views are most welcome. I have no doudt we are of similar mindsets if only differing (slightly) points of view.
That to my mind means: less miles, more efficient/planned trips, greater use of motorcycles/scooters, carpooling, maybe even choose a bicycle - among other things. Some will try to avoid using their cars all together but it gets rather tough to do the family grocery shopping on a bus. In 2008 they/we did drive less but still cars were used and all last summer people (I) bought gas at historically high prices.
My point, really, is that ICE based cars; buses; 18 wheelers carrying our groceries to market are going to be used for some time to come even as gas gets really, REALLY expensive - wished for or not.
Cheers.
mclovin said:
That to my mind means: less miles, more efficient/planned trips, greater use of motorcycles/scooters, carpooling, maybe even choose a bicycle - among other things. Some will try to avoid using their cars all together but it gets rather tough to do the family grocery shopping on a bus. In 2008 they/we did drive less but still cars were used and all last summer people (I) bought gas at historically high prices.
My point, really, is that ICE based cars; buses; 18 wheelers carrying our groceries to market are going to be used for some time to come even as gas gets really, REALLY expensive - wished for or not.
Cheers.
so this bothers u & a rapidly deteriorating global environment, not so much huh?
the party's over pal, if petty shit like this tuckers u now ur not gonna like at all the massive dose of reality that's headed this way.
it won't be simply tiring, it's gonna hurt big time.
must be nice, not having any other real problems to worry about.
i'm tired of constantly hearing that because there isn't a single all-encompassing replacement for oil or the automobile that we shouldn't even bother in making the attempt.
most familes don't really know what an ebike is even if they might have heard of it or seen them.
with an ebike, perhaps the kids can drive themselves to soccer practice, maybe pick up some groceries on the way home (Jérôme slaps forehead).
i ride my ebike in minus 30 weather so i know it can be done, i also know that it's not gonna be possible for everyone or all the time.
that's cuz i'm not so myopic to believe that there's an absolute requirement in a one size fits all solution.
higher gas prices have been long overdue in n.america & probably still not caught up with teh RoW.
repeat: party's over pal, get used to it.
the party's over pal, if petty shit like this tuckers u now ur not gonna like at all the massive dose of reality that's headed this way.
it won't be simply tiring, it's gonna hurt big time.
must be nice, not having any other real problems to worry about.
i'm tired of constantly hearing that because there isn't a single all-encompassing replacement for oil or the automobile that we shouldn't even bother in making the attempt.
u can't see it happen to even a small measure when it hasn't penetrated mass consciousness it's not an option up for consideration.Jérôme Daoust said:
most familes don't really know what an ebike is even if they might have heard of it or seen them.
with an ebike, perhaps the kids can drive themselves to soccer practice, maybe pick up some groceries on the way home (Jérôme slaps forehead).
i ride my ebike in minus 30 weather so i know it can be done, i also know that it's not gonna be possible for everyone or all the time.
that's cuz i'm not so myopic to believe that there's an absolute requirement in a one size fits all solution.
higher gas prices have been long overdue in n.america & probably still not caught up with teh RoW.
repeat: party's over pal, get used to it.
I would like to see gas prices reach $10-15/gal." That would affect everything from peanuts to your new hub motor fresh from china.. I work construction imagine what your reno cost will be when 7 guys in 7 trucks full of tools have to pay $15 a gal just to get to your place . Truck transport is king in NA.
JinbaIttai
100 W
liveforphysics said:
How is your Honda Civic faster than RT chargers, Mustangs, and Vettes?
miro13car
100 kW
Toorbought,
I am agreeing 100 % with you.
COULD NOT WRITE IT BETTER MYSELF.
Ride Alberta, ride.
I also regularly ride below zero.
It is about lifestyle living locally, working locally.
First find work, next buy, rent youyr place.
Miroslaw
I am agreeing 100 % with you.
COULD NOT WRITE IT BETTER MYSELF.
Ride Alberta, ride.
I also regularly ride below zero.
It is about lifestyle living locally, working locally.
First find work, next buy, rent youyr place.
Miroslaw
vanilla ice
1 MW
JinbaIttai said:
Just because you fit a larger displacement and forced induction engine in to a car that originally came with a small normally asperated engine, to get better performance.. it doesn't automatically mean that car will get worse mileage. In fact you can get significantly better mileage than stock with careful tuning and component selection. That and it will still haul azz when you WFO.
Jerome Daoust
100 W
This "high gas price wishers" trolling net has caught 2 live ones.miro13car said:
miro13car
100 kW
You like it or not economics at work.
You increase price, I am not telling drastically and usage drops.
Increased taxes on gasoline should go into research in renewable energy sources .
MC
You increase price, I am not telling drastically and usage drops.
Increased taxes on gasoline should go into research in renewable energy sources .
MC
mikefish
100 W
could not agree with you more WonderProfessor!
where i live, people drove less, you saw more scooters, and bikes, and when people drove, they would not rocket start, or do 85mph on the highway.
but like you said! thats all off now that gas is lower priced again.
i dont wish high gas prices, i wish for a greener population.
it was beautiful to see the masses cut back on gas usage.
even though everyone was mad about the high price of gas, it felt like a wonderland to me!
where i live, people drove less, you saw more scooters, and bikes, and when people drove, they would not rocket start, or do 85mph on the highway.
but like you said! thats all off now that gas is lower priced again.
i dont wish high gas prices, i wish for a greener population.
it was beautiful to see the masses cut back on gas usage.
even though everyone was mad about the high price of gas, it felt like a wonderland to me!
John in CR
100 TW
While increasing the push for alternatives would be a benefit of high energy prices, the economic impact is highly detrimental. Just look at how food prices skyrocketed last year, and still haven't completely corrected. Those high energy prices were also a major factor in triggering the current recession. Imagine what $10/gal gas would cause.
Instead of high prices, I hope the current global push for alternatives is so wildly successful that oil demand and prices plummet. I'd like nothing better than oil producers going broke, except maybe Canada. Too many riches are going into the wrong hands with high energy prices.
John
Instead of high prices, I hope the current global push for alternatives is so wildly successful that oil demand and prices plummet. I'd like nothing better than oil producers going broke, except maybe Canada. Too many riches are going into the wrong hands with high energy prices.
John
liveforphysics
100 TW
Sadly, the bulk of our country will only use whatever energy source is the cheapest, even if that means sending the finances of the USA out of our country to go gold-plate sand dunes.
If a practical alternative fuel source came up that was cheaper than gasoline/diesel, then an immediate and sweeping change would occur.
There are two ways to make something cheaper, and hence a viable replacement fuel. You can find ways to produce it cheaper, or you can have the price of dinosaur gasoline go up high enough that alternative energy fuels become a cheaper fuel option.
As far as the economy goes, yes, it would take a very hard hit in the short-run. In the long run though, it's going to make for more money and industry staying inside the US. It's going to make for better consumer choices and better product offerings. It's going to cause people and businesses to make better choices in logistical matters. And it's going to be a giant step in the right direction envriomentally.
In the economic long-run, the countries that don't begin to ween themselves off oil BEFORE the end of cheap oil occurs are going to be at the mercy of the countries that were prepared. The US is probably the very least prepared country for the end of cheap oil. As we've experienced when fuel prices hit $5/gal, our people begin to make lifestyle improvements to cope. Way better to have oil prices step up incrimentally like $5-10+/gal in advance, which will let the country and business adapt rather than just racing to the end of cheap oil, and seeing prices go to $>25/gal until infrastructure and production of alternative fuels can become the new energy source for the US.
If I had to take a wild guess, I imagine the oil demand of the US could be cut by 50% over the course of a year if the price were to jump to $10/gal for whatever reasons. Many business models would no longer be successful with that level of energy cost. It might not make sense to truck/fly oranges from Florida or Australia to Washington. It might not make sense to fly/truck in fish and shrimp from China's aquaculture ponds. Produces grown or produced locally would have distinct pricing advantages. That will require a re-structure of the current business models, of which, many would no longer be profitable. But this will also create new opportunity for local business that could never before compete with China's amazing production abilities, or giant farming industry.
Things would have to shift. There would be much business failure, but also new growth potential newly possible to fill the empty niches. It would be a huge and painful restructure, but it would not be a long restructure, and the final end result would be a better place to live.
My $0.02
-Luke
If a practical alternative fuel source came up that was cheaper than gasoline/diesel, then an immediate and sweeping change would occur.
There are two ways to make something cheaper, and hence a viable replacement fuel. You can find ways to produce it cheaper, or you can have the price of dinosaur gasoline go up high enough that alternative energy fuels become a cheaper fuel option.
As far as the economy goes, yes, it would take a very hard hit in the short-run. In the long run though, it's going to make for more money and industry staying inside the US. It's going to make for better consumer choices and better product offerings. It's going to cause people and businesses to make better choices in logistical matters. And it's going to be a giant step in the right direction envriomentally.
In the economic long-run, the countries that don't begin to ween themselves off oil BEFORE the end of cheap oil occurs are going to be at the mercy of the countries that were prepared. The US is probably the very least prepared country for the end of cheap oil. As we've experienced when fuel prices hit $5/gal, our people begin to make lifestyle improvements to cope. Way better to have oil prices step up incrimentally like $5-10+/gal in advance, which will let the country and business adapt rather than just racing to the end of cheap oil, and seeing prices go to $>25/gal until infrastructure and production of alternative fuels can become the new energy source for the US.
If I had to take a wild guess, I imagine the oil demand of the US could be cut by 50% over the course of a year if the price were to jump to $10/gal for whatever reasons. Many business models would no longer be successful with that level of energy cost. It might not make sense to truck/fly oranges from Florida or Australia to Washington. It might not make sense to fly/truck in fish and shrimp from China's aquaculture ponds. Produces grown or produced locally would have distinct pricing advantages. That will require a re-structure of the current business models, of which, many would no longer be profitable. But this will also create new opportunity for local business that could never before compete with China's amazing production abilities, or giant farming industry.
Things would have to shift. There would be much business failure, but also new growth potential newly possible to fill the empty niches. It would be a huge and painful restructure, but it would not be a long restructure, and the final end result would be a better place to live.
My $0.02
-Luke
John in CR
100 TW
Tax it up to that $10/gal with the tax proceeds invested directly into alternatives.
John
John
liveforphysics
100 TW
As a guy who is normally always against any type of tax increases, I have to say, that would be a tax I would gladly pay.
Good idea John.
Good idea John.
Jerome Daoust
100 W
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