Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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FranBunnyFFXII   10 mW

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Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by FranBunnyFFXII » Apr 07 2021 8:48am

I'm currently running a 60volt LiFePO4 setup and frankly... it's not enough.

Just prefacing this before hand, I am already getting a gas motorcycle. I cannot own a 2nd bike street bike, so I want to keep my ebike as an emoto project. I also can keep an ebike in my apartment but I can't keep a small motorcycle as i cannot get it into the elevator. It'd be way cheaper for me to dump some cash into my two bikes, than to buy 2nd gas bike. I like having both.

First things I'm going to look into is a full triple tree front fork with disc brake, 26inch front wheel.

But what I need some info about hardware for a series.

What I simply want to do is just buy a duplicate of my current battery, a 60v 20ah LiFePO4 battery from BTR Power. It's relatively lightly used so not like it's gonna be all that different in health to a brand new one.
Then Series them. One mounted on the frame as a gas tank, and the the 2nd one on the bike rack. Making it look like a raised pillion.

1. Do I need a voltage specific throttle? I have a 60volt throttle that has the little LCD indicator on it, and it reads up to 99v, but if i run 128+ volts through, is it going to destroy it? Is it going to care?

Are there throttles with a key or power switch, ect that are designed around 120+ volts?

2. Controllers. I'm seeing 120volt controllers here and there. any suggestions?

2 batteries in series run the same amperage right? What happens if a battery's BMS amp output is lower than that of the controller? Does it matter? Will the battery simply give as much as it has? IT can't overdraw the battery can it?
I'd be running 2x 50amp BMS in Series.

3. What about battery pack of another voltage? Say my current 60v 20ah with 36v 20ah? I'm looking at potentially smaller, lighter, and cheaper tail batteries.
Hardtail EMoto Build
60v x 40a x 1000 Watt Oil Cooled, 20s x 20AH LiFePO4
Steel Torker Alpental 26er Frame(V4 Torque Arm+V1 Torque Arm)

99t4   100 W

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by 99t4 » Apr 07 2021 9:19pm

Before getting too far into answering the rest of your questions, what are you trying to achieve by doubling your voltage from 60V to 120V? (guessing:::::::::: more speed?:::::::::::::::::::: how much more?)

Hub motor? DD? Geared? Mid-drive? What motor(s)?

FranBunnyFFXII   10 mW

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by FranBunnyFFXII » Apr 07 2021 10:39pm

Higher top speed, harder acceleration. I need to be able to each 40~42mph sustained on flat ground, and able to run 35 without my throttle pinned.

I'm using a hub motor. 1000watt winding, 9c clone. Ill be injecting it with statorade.
I'm leaning more towards adding 36v or 48volt into the series rather than the 60. all of these are LiFePO4 20,000mah based battery packs. 50/100 BMS.

I'm already looking at parts for a new front end to upgrade the brakes and handling.
And an additional torque arm to increase rear strength.
Hardtail EMoto Build
60v x 40a x 1000 Watt Oil Cooled, 20s x 20AH LiFePO4
Steel Torker Alpental 26er Frame(V4 Torque Arm+V1 Torque Arm)

BobBob   10 W

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by BobBob » Apr 08 2021 3:18pm

FranBunnyFFXII wrote:
Apr 07 2021 8:48am

1. Do I need a voltage specific throttle? I have a 60volt throttle that has the little LCD indicator on it, and it reads up to 99v, but if i run 128+ volts through, is it going to destroy it? Is it going to care?

Are there throttles with a key or power switch, ect that are designed around 120+ volts?
Throttle might work but display probably won't
FranBunnyFFXII wrote:
Apr 07 2021 8:48am
2. Controllers. I'm seeing 120volt controllers here and there. any suggestions?
Not a suggestion but PowerVelocity do a 4 KW and 7 KW 100V controller and a 100V 120V and 150V version of their 15KW controller which is 150A (tooo much)
Let me know what you find as I'm still looking till I can actually buy a PV (sloooow response to emails)
FranBunnyFFXII wrote:
Apr 07 2021 8:48am
2 batteries in series run the same amperage right? What happens if a battery's BMS amp output is lower than that of the controller? Does it matter? Will the battery simply give as much as it has? IT can't overdraw the battery can it?
I'd be running 2x 50amp BMS in Series.
Yes, two batteries in series will have the same current
If you demand too much power then the BMS may cut the power, that's probably one of its functions.
For the PV controller you can program the power it draws to below that value to avoid this, assuming everything works.
FranBunnyFFXII wrote:
Apr 07 2021 8:48am
3. What about battery pack of another voltage? Say my current 60v 20ah with 36v 20ah? I'm looking at potentially smaller, lighter, and cheaper tail batteries.
Maybe, i'm considering it on my build but waiting for parts and datasheets
One potential problem is that if you have two BMSs in series then one will always shut off before the other.
At this point, the one that shuts off sees the voltage of both.
If it uses a relay rated to this voltage it may survive whereas if it uses FETs it will probably fry.
Edit - answer put a zener in parallel to bypass the BMS - cheap fix.

New to ebikes so none of my post is advice, working on the concept for a 150V ebike myself. Currently trying to buy the PV controller

I've found the Grin simulator really useful to see the effect of various battery, motor and controller combinations https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Good luck
Last edited by BobBob on Apr 10 2021 1:04pm, edited 1 time in total.

FranBunnyFFXII   10 mW

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by FranBunnyFFXII » Apr 08 2021 4:37pm

I apologize, I think this may just be a waste of time for what I want to do.
And me asking anymore questions is just gonna waste others time.

I think at the cost I'm looking at, getting an electric scooter will much better serve for what I want to do.
And poses a lower risk of theft since I can take it with me on the back of my gas motorcycle.
Hardtail EMoto Build
60v x 40a x 1000 Watt Oil Cooled, 20s x 20AH LiFePO4
Steel Torker Alpental 26er Frame(V4 Torque Arm+V1 Torque Arm)

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by John in CR » Apr 09 2021 9:40am

Forget the gasser unless you need more than 80-100km non-stop range. Then just get a real motor and boost your performance to exceed the gasser. I embarrass gassers every time I ride my ebikes and would never consider buying one of those smoke belching, noise making maintenance hogs.

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by 999zip999 » Apr 09 2021 1:00pm

1000 watt 9c clone on 120v you will need to cut holes in the side plates to let the heat out. I just did this on my edge 1,500 35mm with 80v and 40amps. Let's see how it goes. But at 3,000 watts it will melt without holes. Plus have cooling fins. The scooter sounds like a good way to go.where do you live that you have to take your electric scooter bike and motorcycle up the elevator is it just to sleep with or do you live in a suspect neighborhood ?

BobBob   10 W

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by BobBob » Apr 09 2021 3:25pm

I would have thought that for the cost of a scooter, you might upgrade the bike for less and get better performance.
Much more capable on rough stuff with the bigger wheels but I also ride a monowheel so don't listen to me.
Can't speak for anyone else but no need to apologise for wasting my time. Happy to chat
Happy to try to help, off to play with my MXUS 3KW that arrived today.
Planning on trying around 135V 150A through it and wondering what will break first :)

FranBunnyFFXII   10 mW

10 mW
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Joined: Aug 14 2019 3:05pm

Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by FranBunnyFFXII » Apr 12 2021 11:52am

John in CR wrote:
Apr 09 2021 9:40am
Forget the gasser unless you need more than 80-100km non-stop range.
What is exactly what i need. I'm gonna be doing thousands of miles. It's my main mode of transport. I dont drive cars I havent driven a car in 16 years with the exception of re-upping my drivers license since I moved to another state.
Electric is my last mile.
So replacing my ebike with a mid range folding scooter is gonna be a better choice since i can head out to the parking lot, fold up the scooter and strap it to the backseat, and leave nothing behind to be stolen.

And Think you misunderstood, I'm getting a full sized motorcycle.
This model but with different colors and modifications.
Image

BobBob wrote:
Apr 09 2021 3:25pm
I would have thought that for the cost of a scooter, you might upgrade the bike for less and get better performance.


Yeah it'd cost me around 900$ to upgrade and i'd have a pretty sick stealth electric motorcycle, but thats the problem.
Apretty sick ebike sitting around locked up is a prime target for theft.
I dont want to lock up a 2000$ emoto and leave it behind for hours.

Scooter, as described above is the better choice for what I need.

If i didnt have a gas bike on the way... I'd be dropping that 900$ to make my ebike a stealth monster. I'd be fun, but that 900$ is better spent on a safe bet than a risky one.
Hardtail EMoto Build
60v x 40a x 1000 Watt Oil Cooled, 20s x 20AH LiFePO4
Steel Torker Alpental 26er Frame(V4 Torque Arm+V1 Torque Arm)

BobBob   10 W

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by BobBob » Apr 12 2021 3:01pm

One of these days, when this COVID thing's subsided, I'm gonna hop accross the pond and hire something like that for a week or two. Enjoy

fatty   1 kW

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Location: USA

Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by fatty » Apr 12 2021 5:12pm

FranBunnyFFXII wrote:
Apr 08 2021 4:37pm
I apologize, I think this may just be a waste of time for what I want to do.
And me asking anymore questions is just gonna waste others time.

I think at the cost I'm looking at, getting an electric scooter will much better serve for what I want to do.
And poses a lower risk of theft since I can take it with me on the back of my gas motorcycle.
I agree with your assessment. If you need a gas motorcycle anyway, and only need indoor-capable (electric) last-mile mobility, make it as small and light as possible. Folding e-scoot sounds perfect, although it'd be cool to build and show an elegant mounting solution on the gasser. I used Quick Fist clamps on my recovery truck: https://quickfist.com/quick-fist-clamps.html
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Hardware for a 120Volt 20ha series?

Post by John in CR » Apr 13 2021 1:39am

FranBunnyFFXII wrote:
Apr 12 2021 11:52am
John in CR wrote:
Apr 09 2021 9:40am
Forget the gasser unless you need more than 80-100km non-stop range.
What is exactly what i need. I'm gonna be doing thousands of miles. It's my main mode of transport. I dont drive cars I havent driven a car in 16 years with the exception of re-upping my drivers license since I moved to another state.
Electric is my last mile.
Electric is my only mile. I've only use 2 tanks of gas in the family van in 10 years, and one of those was helping to move 3 years ago, after which it has been parked. Only for cross country trips is a gasser and advantage, and even then all it takes is changing you trip somewhat with better planning and more stops to see the sights for electric to have the advantage.

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