Bicycle laws

Gregte

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May 30, 2009
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When it comes to laws, many hours are spent in court rooms interpreting what a given law actually means. this is because there is often a fair amount of ambiguity in the wording of a law.

HR 727 in part states ...electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.)... is to be considered a bicycle only and not a motor vehicle.

In most all cases when we make a reference to the horse power of a motor vehicle we are referring to the output power of the motor, not the input power.

The problem I see with HR 727 is that it does not state that the 750 watts is the input power. Therefore it would seem most logical to assume output power. In this case a hub motor that is stamped as 750 watts would not likely have 750 watts output. It would not produce 1 h.p. as listed in parenthesis in HR 727.

However, I have a very strong feeling that any judge in the U.S. is going to see it differently.
 
Gregte said:
The problem I see with HR 727 is that it does not state that the 750 watts is the input power. Therefore it would seem most logical to assume output power. In this case a hub motor that is stamped as 750 watts would not likely have 750 watts output. It would not produce 1 h.p. as listed in parenthesis in HR 727.
The motor "rating" (continuous duty) will be the likely metric.
 
Gregte said:
In most all cases when we make a reference to the horse power of a motor vehicle we are referring to the output power of the motor, not the input power.

The problem I see with HR 727 is that it does not state that the 750 watts is the input power. Therefore it would seem most logical to assume output power. In this case a hub motor that is stamped as 750 watts would not likely have 750 watts output. It would not produce 1 h.p. as listed in parenthesis in HR 727.

However, I have a very strong feeling that any judge in the U.S. is going to see it differently.

The problem is, the "stamp" of 750watt have nothing to do with input power, which can vary greatly.

For example, when starting, a electric motor rated for 750 watt, however labeled (output power or input), draws far more than 750watt ---- that is why some motors are equipped to do "capacitor starts".

The only instance when this law is likely to draw controversy is when the issue goes before the courts that hinges on whether it is a "bicycle" as defined by the law.

That would imply an instance where, a manufacturer doing a fair volume of output of tricked out bikes that is causing injuries or accidents or other kinds of trouble, or, alternatively, an individual builder who got into a rather serious accident that resulted in 3rd parties (and lawyers) involved.
 
I agree with GTA in that this law is more likely to be applied to a manufacturer of complete electric bikes. IMO Only the speed limit portion is likely to be applied to individuals. I don't think most judges are prepared to set legal precedence in regards to motor power definitions for ebikes. It would be easier to rule on the speed limit issue.

I'm certainly not a lawyer but.....IMO it would be a very strong legal argument to say that the law can/should only apply to peak output power. To apply it to rated or input power would be a bit shaky I think. :roll:

Just a thought.

Cheers.
 
Gregte said:
...there is often a fair amount of ambiguity in the wording of a law.
That's `cause the laws are written by lawyers to keep other lawyers employed :wink:

I agree w/TD. "Rated" HP would be taken as the "commonly accepted" definition in court.

...uhhh, but not on ES of course :lol:
tks
locck
 
Under our state law an ebike classifies as a moped. But a friend recently told me that he had heard that they changed some definitions and that an ebike would no longer be classified as a moped.

So I wrote to the state DOT and asked. They said and ebike was now classified as a motorcycle and all laws, including requiring of a motorcycle driver license applied to an ebike.

Shortly after this I learned about HR 727. I emailed that law to them and told them my understanding is that it supercedes all state laws. They have not returned my email this time. It has been about a month. It is as though since I proved them wrong, and I was very polite in my wording of my discovery of HR 727 and my understanding of same, they are going to pout.

I went through an endless amount of misinformation when I tried to learn about a few specifics regarding the moped laws in our state a few years ago. Nobody in law enforcement knows anything but those who will give you an answer all contradict each other.
 
mclovin said:
..IMO it would be a very strong legal argument to say that the law can/should only apply to peak output power. To apply it to rated or input power would be a bit shaky I think.

Canadian Federal and Ontario Law specifically refers to continuous output power measured at the shaft.

Now.... it is not clear which shaft they are referring to .... and who is doing the pumping.
 
Gregte said:
Shortly after this I learned about HR 727. I emailed that law to them and told them my understanding is that it supercedes all state laws. They have not returned my email this time. It has been about a month. It is as though since I proved them wrong, and I was very polite in my wording of my discovery of HR 727 and my understanding of same, they are going to pout.
Fed CPSC definition only applies to manufacturing, sales and civil actions. It does not apply to, or supercede state and local traffic law.
 
If I were to drive around an elephant, will it be subject to the 750 watt limit or be classifid as a "motor vehicle"?
 
There are a few zillion people who don't get it that the HR 727 law is not a motor vehicle code, and has nothing to do with your local traffic statutes. As I understand New Mexicos laws, HR 727 means I can manufature, or sell ebikes all I want and call them bikes. But in this state, if you ride it , its a moped, a motorcycle, or if there is no vin number, an off road vehicle.
 
dogman said:
There are a few zillion people who don't get it that the HR 727 law is not a motor vehicle code, and has nothing to do with your local traffic statutes.
Many ebike sellers aren't exactly helping... :evil:
 
GTA1 said:
mclovin said:
..IMO it would be a very strong legal argument to say that the law can/should only apply to peak output power. To apply it to rated or input power would be a bit shaky I think.

Canadian Federal and Ontario Law specifically refers to continuous output power measured at the shaft.

Now.... it is not clear which shaft they are referring to .... and who is doing the pumping.

Wow. That's sounds as equally vague as US laws. I mean, ebikes don't always travel at one, continuous speed or with one particular load. Hmmmmm. :roll:
 
TylerDurden said:
Fed CPSC definition only applies to manufacturing, sales and civil actions. It does not apply to, or supercede state and local traffic law.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

In light of this, how many ebikers on this forum get the required licensing and registration for their ebikes, if required in their state?

Another way of asking this question is do law enforcement agencies typically enforce the motorcycle laws with regard to ebikes?
 
Most folks don't even register their nonE bikes, since it's rarely required. I don't recall any ES members getting a bicycle changed to a motor vehicle.

One member had traffic charges dismissed by showing a judge their was such a class as an e-bike. (He was ticketed for operating an illegal motor-vehicle.)

Most of the rest are riding sleepers or converting some type of motor vehicle to EV.


re enforcement:
who has been stopped by the popo?
 
GTA1 said:
Canadian Federal and Ontario Law specifically refers to continuous output power measured at the shaft.

Now.... it is not clear which shaft they are referring to .... and who is doing the pumping.

How many shafts do you think a typical motor comes with? There's only one on any motor I've seen. Have you got an example of a motor with multiple rotors?

The guys that write these laws are not too bright but they're not that stupid. You don't have to invent lots of weird interpretations of the term "motor" to try to get around the law. There's a minimum of common sense that the courts are going to use to interpret this and the fact that most electric motors have standard ratings that match what the law refers to is going to settle the whole argument.
 
The key thing is not flunking the attitude test, and never landing in court. Ride 20 mph on bike paths, never let cops see you go 45.
 
i read that also the fed goverment has a weight restriction of a 100 lbs for an ebike Thats the bike alone. So if the man really wants you bad enough he will get you one way or anouther :mrgreen:
 
diver said:
i read that also the fed goverment has a weight restriction of a 100 lbs for an ebike Thats the bike alone. So if the man really wants you bad enough he will get you one way or anouther :mrgreen:
Any link please diver? I've never heard this before!
tks
Lock
 
I've seen a weight restriction somewhere, but it wasn't a USA federal definition.

What would be a reasonable limit? A 300 Lb. rider would need what amounts to a motorcycle with pedals and if it used lead acid batteries could easily be 500 Lbs.
 
gogo said:
I've seen a weight restriction somewhere, but it wasn't a USA federal definition.

What would be a reasonable limit? A 300 Lb. rider would need what amounts to a motorcycle with pedals and if it used lead acid batteries could easily be 500 Lbs.

To me, the reasonable way to go about it is to specify a weight limit sans batteries.
 
gogo said:
What would be a reasonable limit? A 300 Lb. rider would need what amounts to a motorcycle with pedals and if it used lead acid batteries could easily be 500 Lbs.
A trike can handle that weight easily. With low power, it would be slow, but usable.
 
I don't think that "reasonable" and (weight) "limit" can be used in the same sentence.
:wink:
LloCk
 
The thing that gets me is the wattage limit stipulation. The gov'ment is going to limit things like total wattage horsepower etc to a "legal" limit yet automobiles can exceed the posted speed limits by a factor of 2 or three? Why should we care how many watts? Just follow traffic laws period. Trying to limit wattage is like requiring a speed limiter on a car that won't allow speeds over 65 mph.
 
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