E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by neptronix » May 21 2021 3:12pm

Ianhill wrote:
May 21 2021 10:56am
Anyone seen theses floating about like they down a manhole with IT the clown.
Screenshot_20210521-165016_Alibabacom.jpg

3kw nominal 12kw peaks ive seen it wheelie on a youtube video guy flipped it looked like it had loads of bottom end and its 4 speed with clutch.

Not the best solution from engineering stand point but it looked a blast dip the clutch and drop a hurt bomb on the wheel.
That's pretty awesome actually. On a motorcycle, i'd prefer a smaller motor with gears also... with the motor portion having some cooling modifications and the power cranked up.

This makes me legit want to convert a motorcycle.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Heavy duty Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Ianhill » May 21 2021 4:07pm

neptronix wrote:
May 21 2021 3:12pm
Ianhill wrote:
May 21 2021 10:56am
Anyone seen theses floating about like they down a manhole with IT the clown.
Screenshot_20210521-165016_Alibabacom.jpg

3kw nominal 12kw peaks ive seen it wheelie on a youtube video guy flipped it looked like it had loads of bottom end and its 4 speed with clutch.

Not the best solution from engineering stand point but it looked a blast dip the clutch and drop a hurt bomb on the wheel.
That's pretty awesome actually. On a motorcycle, i'd prefer a smaller motor with gears also... with the motor portion having some cooling modifications and the power cranked up.

This makes me legit want to convert a motorcycle.
I bet the cooling is not to bad theres a large surface area to bleed heat away to, theres gear oil in there too.

If its an innruner that i highly suspect it is a bit of ferrofluid to help keep the rotor cool would be my only initial mod, id try and find a ball besring sealed greese nipple and fit that inline with the stator/rotor airgap so i could dope that interface as needed, id proberly encapsulate the windings too with thermal epoxy to help keep the end turns from being a fail point but externally stock would do.

Does have alot of appeal.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Ianhill » May 22 2021 9:22am

Im trying to setup a sample order of just the motor without the controller, if im successful ill strip it down log it all show pictures and rebuild it with the mods mentioned,

Ill also add a temp sensor to the windings but i dont want to visually monitor how the motors doing as i thrash it so it ill need some way of cutting power maybe a esp32 controlled anti spark monitors the motor temp and hard cuts when threshold exceeded to save a melt down.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by neptronix » May 22 2021 9:26am

cool :)
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Heavy duty Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by john61ct » May 22 2021 11:08am

Link to the motor?

Ideally the full description specs page from the manufacturer?

Or has it been sighted only on Ali?

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by TNC » May 22 2021 11:38am

markz wrote:
May 16 2021 7:43pm
More complexity to the mid drives and if your motor chain breaks, or something (power, trail dmg) breaks your drive train have fun walking.

Changing gears on full power can break things - there is the sensor you can install on some of the m.d's. I've noticed on some hill climbs on my dd hub I need to change gears. When I am getting to the hill at w.o.t. in rear 34T and get half way up on w.o.t. and need to change to a 20T half way up then lowest T of 14 or 11T rear gear still at w.o.t. to get to the top - any pause in the power applied while going up the hill to reduce power on mid drive to change gears will have great affect on getting up the hill. It comes down to make or break getting up the hill. But yeah sure I've done C4K from a standstill on a 20% hill, and able to climb in the right gear.

Besides all that, "mountain bike riding" is a very broad term.
- Goat trails with rutted roots, cut tree trunks
- Dirt bike trails
- Tight trails
- Easy swooping corners of a ski hill bike trail, like velvety trails of green/blue runs
- Big jumps like drops off made platforms of ski hill bike trails.
- Small jumps
- Back country forestry roads, typical gravel that any mtb can do
- Single track with various conditions from technical turns, to easy lumbering look at the birds trails.
- Large chunky rocks, like dry river beds or puddled or riding across a river/stream.
Heck "mtb riding" could even mean riding high altitude in the resort towns easy bike paths/sidewalks/roads, hey your in "the mountains"
While mountain biking can indeed be a very broad term, where suspension function and operation are critical...think riding places like Porcupine Rim in Utah...most hub drives I've seen would violate the optimum "unsprung weight" requirement for hardcore trail riding. And yes, "hardcore trail riding" can seem nebulous to some...why I mentioned a classic trail like Porcupine Rim. Of course there are those who will ride that trail and many others on a rigid hardtail for the challenge, but as a comparison most surgeons don't go into the OR with just a Swiss Army knife.

And please understand that this isn't a slam against hub motors. The good ones are impressive in their application categories. markz on your comment about the fragility of mid-drives, it appears the Bafang BBSHD has been proving to be fairly rugged, and the somewhat explosive power can be tuned/programmed to a very smooth operational level. As to my MTB's drivetrain, I installed an all-steel 9-speed rear cassette, a clutched rear derailleur, and an ebike rated chain. My wheels were already DH rated, so they do fine.
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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Ianhill » May 22 2021 12:12pm

john61ct wrote:
May 22 2021 11:08am
Link to the motor?

Ideally the full description specs page from the manufacturer?

Or has it been sighted only on Ali?
Alibaba special.

The bikes are called, time et electric

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Giriraja » May 22 2021 12:57pm

I like the hub motors best for a few reasons. Mid-drive is clanky, has gears and parts that can go bad.

Hub motors with sine wave controller are completely silent, powerful, easily installed and have little that can malfunction. A ~$400 kit can go 40+mph with color display and sine wave with bluetooth.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by john61ct » May 22 2021 4:28pm


Ianhill wrote:
john61ct wrote:
May 22 2021 11:08am
Link to the motor?

Ideally the full description specs page from the manufacturer?

Or has it been sighted only on Ali?
Alibaba special.

The bikes are called, time et electric
Yes I know it's sold through Ali. As I asked, could you please just post a link to it?

Google gives me no joy with that string

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22time ... ic%22+bike

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Ianhill » May 22 2021 5:04pm

electric motorcycle conversion kit Triumph Arch

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Manbeer » May 22 2021 8:28pm

yeah idk why its so hard to link from the app, if i search "electric motorbike conversion kit" its the first thing that comes up

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by vanturion » May 22 2021 8:33pm

TNC wrote:
May 22 2021 11:38am
While mountain biking can indeed be a very broad term, where suspension function and operation are critical...think riding places like Porcupine Rim in Utah...most hub drives I've seen would violate the optimum "unsprung weight" requirement for hardcore trail riding. And yes, "hardcore trail riding" can seem nebulous to some...why I mentioned a classic trail like Porcupine Rim. Of course there are those who will ride that trail and many others on a rigid hardtail for the challenge, but as a comparison most surgeons don't go into the OR with just a Swiss Army knife.

And please understand that this isn't a slam against hub motors. The good ones are impressive in their application categories. markz on your comment about the fragility of mid-drives, it appears the Bafang BBSHD has been proving to be fairly rugged, and the somewhat explosive power can be tuned/programmed to a very smooth operational level. As to my MTB's drivetrain, I installed an all-steel 9-speed rear cassette, a clutched rear derailleur, and an ebike rated chain. My wheels were already DH rated, so they do fine.
Hey, speaking of Porcupine Rim and mid-drives...
Porcupine Rim.jpg
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Funny enough, I knocked the derailleur on a drop here that got away from me and the d-hangar wasn't long for this world several destinations after this. Even with the chain guide and long-narrow tooth chainring, I had recurring problems with my drivetrain amounting to several sheared derailleur hangars, and running a clutch-less SRAM X3 derailleur and wolftooth certainly didn't help. I've changed things up with the drivetrain since then, but not enough miles to weigh on the improvements. That said, can't say I'd ever want to ride Porcupine Rim on a hardtail (RIP wrists)!

For downhill MTBing, I love the BBSHD and agree with you, it's been very rugged/reliable. I don't really find myself ever wanting for power and the 14S6P pack has all the battery capacity I need to never worry about shuttling. She goes up and down, over and over again. It's a thing of beauty. I have a second hub-motor bike for all things urban/street. A high power, low-profile, go-anywhere street weapon that can cruise/pedal along at 18 mph like anything else. Virtually zero maintenance. Also, incredibly good at what it's designed/built for.

Just my opinion, but if we're talking bicycles and not motorcycles, mid-drives excel in off-road applications, hub drives excel on the street. Get/build 1 of each for their respective purpose and never look back :).

Your bike looks very capable btw.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Ianhill » May 22 2021 9:47pm

Denzel gb200
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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by TNC » May 22 2021 11:31pm

vanturion...like the TWE trailhead pic...been there. On your drivetrain, the Box 3 9-speed drivetrain is a pretty amazing value and is very tough for the BBSHD...clutched derailleur, all-steel cassette, shifter, and ebike rated chain. It may be the closest thing to bombproof for BBSHD mountain biking. If you look it up, don't be put off by "not for ebike use", because that only applies to the shifter that has the multishift ability. They make a single push shift derailleur, but I went with the multi and just don't do the extended push to shift more gears...easy to avoid.

On my Santa Cruz Nomad, I've been thoroughly amazed at how well the BBSHD has worked on this bike. I'm not sure I'd take one of our Trek or Specialized emtb's over this setup. Reprogramming the motor made all the difference in the world, and the throttle adds another dimension not even available on most factory emtb's. I pedal and use the pedal assist all the time. However, when a hinky, herky-jerky spot causes you to stall or you have to restart in a rocky technical spot, especially uphill, that little push on the throttle really helps you get going again and get clipped in.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by vanturion » May 23 2021 1:07am

TNC wrote:
May 22 2021 11:31pm
vanturion...like the TWE trailhead pic...been there. On your drivetrain, the Box 3 9-speed...
Nice, thanks for the info and recommendation. I will definitely give that a shot if my latest drivetrain configuration doesn't hold up. I had a clutched SLX 10-speed derailleur laying around so I gave that a shot along with a Shimano steel cassette where I limit out the upper and lowermost gears to try and keep a decent chain-line. The main thing I'm wondering is if the more diminutive 10-speed chain will hold up, time will tell.
TNC wrote:
May 22 2021 11:31pm
On my Santa Cruz Nomad, I've been thoroughly amazed at how well the BBSHD has worked on this bike. I'm not sure I'd take one of our Trek or Specialized emtb's over this setup. Reprogramming the motor made all the difference in the world, and the throttle adds another dimension not even available on most factory emtb's. I pedal and use the pedal assist all the time. However, when a hinky, herky-jerky spot causes you to stall or you have to restart in a rocky technical spot, especially uphill, that little push on the throttle really helps you get going again and get clipped in.
1000% in agreement with you. Having the option to throttle-on is such a boon to boost when you want or need it. Besides the performance aspect, I've hit the motor case numerous times on logs and stuff and even had the BBSHD fully submerged while throttling to keep from tipping over in a deeper than expected stream, and it still keeps trucking! Perhaps packing with marine grease helped there, but it's tough to believe factory emtb's could take this kind of abuse without issue.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Grantmac » May 23 2021 10:50am

It's a fallacy to think 10spd chains are weaker. If you actually look at their ratings the 10 and 11spd are stronger than the older designs. The only difference is the plate thickness and that isn't where chains wear, it's in the rollers.
Chain line and staying in the larger cogs is how you save drivetrains.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Ianhill » May 23 2021 10:53am

I don't think ill be getting a denzel gb200, dont look like it will hold much power for long really theres 2 main design issues thats going to be a problem and thats the stator plastic inserts thats wound round and the copper wind is lose as a kiddys shoe laces theres a monster airgap between the rotor and stator could even fibreglass tape the rotor theres so much space and thats going to be a low efficiency motor as a result.
Every inrunner ive had is dead from demag and self destruct so to me ipm is what this should be.
Its sad they keep knocking this out rather than step up the game they will get left behind they dont sooner or later but I'm out on this one maybe mk2 version they will get it more robust and rev happy but till then ill be waiting.

Edit

Im talking shit just found the web page a and theres a gb150 ipm version 2 speed like they got a time traveling phone box.
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Last edited by Ianhill on May 23 2021 11:03am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by john61ct » May 23 2021 11:03am

Ianhill wrote:electric motorcycle conversion kit Triumph Arch

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Aaargh

you do know everybody's search results vary based on the per user activity tracking?

I have no idea why you are averse to just pasting a link???

Image

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Ianhill » May 23 2021 11:05am

john61ct wrote:
May 23 2021 11:03am
Ianhill wrote:electric motorcycle conversion kit Triumph Arch

Top results
Aaargh

you do know everybody's search results vary based on the per user activity tracking?

I have no idea why you are averse to just pasting a link???

Image
When i copy some link urls it comes up with lines and lines of crap surly thats not going tk work ?

Im not it expert im winging it on my phone.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by john61ct » May 23 2021 12:24pm

Just aesthetics, but you could use this to make it pretty

https://tinyurl.com/app

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by neptronix » May 23 2021 12:26pm

Grantmac wrote:
May 23 2021 10:50am
It's a fallacy to think 10spd chains are weaker. If you actually look at their ratings the 10 and 11spd are stronger than the older designs. The only difference is the plate thickness and that isn't where chains wear, it's in the rollers.
Chain line and staying in the larger cogs is how you save drivetrains.
That makes sense that a narrower chain would actually be stronger if the rollers were the same size. Less width means less flexing means less fatigue, etc.
Are the sprockets of an 11 speed drivetrain the same width and strength?

..do you have any articles or tests to share on this?
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Heavy duty Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by TNC » May 23 2021 2:23pm

neptronix wrote:
May 23 2021 12:26pm
Grantmac wrote:
May 23 2021 10:50am
It's a fallacy to think 10spd chains are weaker. If you actually look at their ratings the 10 and 11spd are stronger than the older designs. The only difference is the plate thickness and that isn't where chains wear, it's in the rollers.
Chain line and staying in the larger cogs is how you save drivetrains.
That makes sense that a narrower chain would actually be stronger if the rollers were the same size. Less width means less flexing means less fatigue, etc.
Are the sprockets of an 11 speed drivetrain the same width and strength?

..do you have any articles or tests to share on this?
I work at a shop and have gotten to see industry and independent testing on all manner of things that I normally wouldn't run into. This doesn't make me an expert on any of these issues...maybe only an expert reader...LOL! However, I will mention how the advent of ebikes has yielded some testing that produced some interesting results. I apologize for not quoting the sources...I didn't take notes...but I'm sure some it can be googled for first hand reading for those interested. And some of it came from warranty warnings and advice to dealers that may not readily be "out there".

On the issue of drivetrains in emtb's and bikes in general, there seemed to be a pattern of identifying the weakest link...no pun intended...in the system as far as actual breakage and failure. I didn't see any indication that claimed a 10-speed chain was stronger than an 8 or 9-speed chain, but there was no evidence that 10 or 11 chains were weaker than 8 or 9 chains. Interestingly what they did point out was that the "weakness" cropped up in the cassette as the number increased. And apparently it wasn't the cog teeth as much as the attachment points of the cogs as the cassette grew in number...spiders, pins, etc. Now, there were caveats as to brands, models, and quality of these cassettes that can further obscure the precision of these results, and I'm only throwing this out there for thought. I'm sure the "what if's" can be significant. And remember these studies, tests, or whatever were a result of drivetrains being challenge by the new electric devil...LOL!

These findings, right or wrong, did influence me to remain at 9-speed but more importantly with an all-steel cassette...11-50 in my case...and a clutched derailleur. The upside to fewer gears from my experience so far is that my MTB doesn't need all those smaller incremental gear steps anymore with the torque of the BBSHD on tap. That's not to say one should just stick it in one gear and hit the trail. However, I'm finding that all those additional cogs just aren't as necessary. In fact if you look closely, there are quite a few newer 8-speed ebike specific drivetrains out there in that 11T,12T to 46T, 48T, 50T gear numbers like mine. I think these manufacturers have "believed" in the findings of some of these tests...and maybe just the results of observed wear-and-tear on the 10-11-12 cog sets on ebikes...and/or the lack of need for so many gears in the cassette due to the added torque available. Take all this for what it's worth, but it probably means something...LOL!

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by john61ct » May 23 2021 3:18pm

4 maybe 5 is the most you need if motor powered only

More is needed when you still want to contribute lots of human pedal power

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by TNC » May 23 2021 3:32pm

john61ct wrote:
May 23 2021 3:18pm
4 maybe 5 is the most you need if motor powered only

More is needed when you still want to contribute lots of human pedal power
I think you're right. The torque efficiency of some of these motors is amazing. There is still joy and efficiency in off road mountain biking with pedaling. Plus, I think about what I'd do if I were a few miles from the trailhead if the motor stopped. Battery level I can keep an eye on...a mechanical where I have to pedal a 50+ pound MTB back to my vehicle would appreciate an 11-50 cog set...LOL!

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Re: E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors

Post by Ianhill » May 23 2021 6:25pm

Wide variety of conditions to cater for and theres no perfect solution that fits every situation.

Flat level riding at a constant 20mph or so no brainer buy a hub off road fire tracks simular speeds still buy a hub motor its approaching its limits but not excceded.

Repeatable full throttle climbs that have crazy incline very bumpy then middrive will suit best, not only is the motor better suited the unsprung weight been less will allow for a mountain bike setup when a real heavy hub needs motorbike strength levels of dampening or they become hoppy.

I had an a2b metro with a mxus 3k thats heavy and the swing arm long i upgraded the shock and it helped make the ride alot smoother but couldn't dial that hop out on ruff terrain but id like to see a mid drive get 30miles out of 330wh and clock it under 2 hours.

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