Newbie Questions

antonbj3

1 mW
Joined
Oct 14, 2021
Messages
13
The current situation with my E-Bike is that water got in to the controller space in the bottom of the frame. Controller is broken and need replacement.

The E-Bike uses the Silverfish Battery formfactor, I am thinking I might want a 60V Battery with more current capacity in the future. Hence I want to buy a new Motor Controller that supports this.

The problem is I still want to be able to use my 48V Battery. According to manufacturer the max Current is 16A with this battery.

The first question, is it possible/an easy operation to upgrade the BMS in this battery to be able to handle a higher current?

Second question, what would happen if I buy a controller rated at say 30A, and use it with my battery which allegedly can't handle more than 16A? Disaster waiting to happen? Is there no mechanism that limit the current in this scenario?

What would you advice in my situation?
 
The battery will likely die an early death if you put a larger controller on it. To keep costs down, they will not have used the greatest cells on a bike with a 16 amp controller. Its designed as a system, and apparently a lower power one.

Your motor may be a type that doesn't like 30 amps of 60 volts too. Replace your controller with a similar one, or consider a start over with better everything if you want moped like performance. Better bike most likely, strong motor, very strong battery, and that 60v battery with high discharge rate cells in it.

Its harsh, but when designers start out to make a very low power system, its kind of replace everything deal to upgrade to moped performance levels.

Tell us more about your bike, it may be easily able to handle 1500w, meaning a 48v 30 amps controller. But more likely its got a motor that maxes out at 48v 20 amps.
 
dogman dan said:
Tell us more about your bike, it may be easily able to handle 1500w, meaning a 48v 30 amps controller. But more likely its got a motor that maxes out at 48v 20 amps.

I asked the supplier, and the motor is 48V25A, Brand: Lvdong.

I guess I could get a 25A 60V Controller?

dogman dan said:
The battery will likely die an early death if you put a larger controller on it. To keep costs down, they will not have used the greatest cells on a bike with a 16 amp controller. Its designed as a system, and apparently a lower power one.

I realize it is likely to lead to an early death of battery. If there is no built in protection, what is the easiest way to have a kind of switch or similar? When activated it will limit the Current to 16A, keeping the original battery safe. And deactivated it will support the powerful battery.

Thank you
 
Snap a picture of your motor, and send it. Also the weight of the whole wheel, including tire could help us know what you have.

I'm betting you have a 350w rated motor, whatever they call it. Retailers call motors whatever they need to , so it sells.

A typical small geared motor with 350w rating can handle 750w if the guy riding it is not too fat. Put 1500w into it, and it will cook off fairly quick. I know, I used to test motors for a retailer, and would cook off motors to see what the limits were in the real world.

But if your motor is larger, a 500w rated direct drive, the it could handle the 60v controller. You then don't need to limit your amps below 30, because you just bought a higher amps, 60v battery. your 48v battery won't run a 60v controller.

Again, either buy a low amps 48v controller, or rebuild your whole bike with new 60v stuff. And this may mean new motor too. And it ought to start with a better bike. your cheap low power bike is not meant to be run as a small motorcycle or moped. Start with a solid bike, able to handle 40 mph, I'm talking bikes with 750 buck front shocks. Not a bike shaped object like you have now. Ideally, a frame intended to be an e bike, similar to the stealth bomber.

Today, I'd buy a new, low power controller that matches your batteries capabilities. Then start gathering funds for the small motorcycle/ moped you want. This moped will also have a $300 cycle analyst on it. This device will let you limit amps or speed, as well as measure your bikes speed, wattage consumption, etc. Data you need on a high performance e bike.
 
Or, you could buy a programmable 72v controller and set it to match your actual system. If you upgrade the battery eventually, the controller can be re-programmed to run higher voltage and/or power.

The problem with this, is that the new controller might not fit the space where yours is now. Upgrading power and speed does require more than just a controller and battery, as previously mentioned. The whole system and bike are built for the power and speed that you have now. You will need bigger motor, wiring, connectors, brakes... eventually a better frame, and suspension. That is why it is probably better to fix your bike as simple as possible, then start a new project from scratch if you want better performance.
 
I can envison your bike, antonbj3. Silverfish pack, Box behind the pedals for the controller,

Your constraint is probably space. I bet the biggest controller you can fit in the box under the battery is about 100mm long. You won't find much above 20A in that size. The next constraint is the battery. I have a standard size 36V silverfish with 50 cells in its honeycomb. It could hold 65 cells which makes for a 48V 13S-5P. If they put in good 10A cells, yes this could handle 30A. You'll have to contact someone about a 60V 30A pack. They would have to use a longer case. This would probably need to be 75 cells, 15x5 or 15S-5P.

Of course, you could always use a different form factor battery, and run a cable directly to the controller, which will have to be located elsewhere on your bike anyway. And continuous operation at 30A would melt the typical 9 pin quick-connect used on most 500W motors.

If you have solid steel front forks, a more spectacular use of your money is a front motor. It will sure look mean, no matter how it impacts performance.
 
docw009 said:
I can envison your bike, antonbj3. Silverfish pack, Box behind the pedals for the controller,

Your constraint is probably space. I bet the biggest controller you can fit in the box under the battery is about 100mm long. You won't find much above 20A in that size. The next constraint is the battery. I have a standard size 36V silverfish with 50 cells in its honeycomb. It could hold 65 cells which makes for a 48V 13S-5P. If they put in good 10A cells, yes this could handle 30A. You'll have to contact someone about a 60V 30A pack. They would have to use a longer case. This would probably need to be 75 cells, 15x5 or 15S-5P.

Of course, you could always use a different form factor battery, and run a cable directly to the controller, which will have to be located elsewhere on your bike anyway. And continuous operation at 30A would melt the typical 9 pin quick-connect used on most 500W motors.

If you have solid steel front forks, a more spectacular use of your money is a front motor. It will sure look mean, no matter how it impacts performance.

Indeed there is a space limitation. 130mm x 100mm is the available space. Original controller was 85mm in length. I found some 9mosfet controllers(25-30A) that is 120mm,

I contemplated the idea of fitting two controllers in there. One 9Mosfet and one 6Mosfet and maybe have some kind of switch between them to allow me to use Battery Packs with different Amp-rating. It would probably be a learning project however as I don't have experience with electrical components.

Front Motor is an interesting idea, thank you.
 
MadRhino said:
Or, you could buy a programmable 72v controller and set it to match your actual system. If you upgrade the battery eventually, the controller can be re-programmed to run higher voltage and/or power.

The problem with this, is that the new controller might not fit the space where yours is now. Upgrading power and speed does require more than just a controller and battery, as previously mentioned. The whole system and bike are built for the power and speed that you have now. You will need bigger motor, wiring, connectors, brakes... eventually a better frame, and suspension. That is why it is probably better to fix your bike as simple as possible, then start a new project from scratch if you want better performance.

Programmable Controller is an interesting option, but they seem be at least double or triple the price point. I could probably get another motor for the front with the same money invested. There is also space limitation, the ones I've come across would not fit in my the space of 130x100mm. If you have any recommendations I am all ears
 
dogman dan said:
Snap a picture of your motor, and send it. Also the weight of the whole wheel, including tire could help us know what you have.

I'm betting you have a 350w rated motor, whatever they call it. Retailers call motors whatever they need to , so it sells.

A typical small geared motor with 350w rating can handle 750w if the guy riding it is not too fat. Put 1500w into it, and it will cook off fairly quick. I know, I used to test motors for a retailer, and would cook off motors to see what the limits were in the real world.

But if your motor is larger, a 500w rated direct drive, the it could handle the 60v controller. You then don't need to limit your amps below 30, because you just bought a higher amps, 60v battery. your 48v battery won't run a 60v controller.

Again, either buy a low amps 48v controller, or rebuild your whole bike with new 60v stuff. And this may mean new motor too. And it ought to start with a better bike. your cheap low power bike is not meant to be run as a small motorcycle or moped. Start with a solid bike, able to handle 40 mph, I'm talking bikes with 750 buck front shocks. Not a bike shaped object like you have now. Ideally, a frame intended to be an e bike, similar to the stealth bomber.

Today, I'd buy a new, low power controller that matches your batteries capabilities. Then start gathering funds for the small motorcycle/ moped you want. This moped will also have a $300 cycle analyst on it. This device will let you limit amps or speed, as well as measure your bikes speed, wattage consumption, etc. Data you need on a high performance e bike.

I believe the motor is able to output 750W as claimed by the manufacturer, which seems to correspond well with real life performance. Full charge of battery and I can reach 40-41Kph without pedaling. So that is Moped performance, but obviously looking for more.

I will weight the wheel when I have time, but 25A Max Ampere as claimed by the Manufacturer I'd guess is truthful.

I found a Controller that support 60V, Regenerative Breaking and has a Max Current of 18A(Original is 16A), Would you say it is safe for the original battery to from 16A to 18A?
 
dogman dan said:
Your 48v battery won't run a 60v controller.

Oh really.. Thats a major drawback, I thought Controllers were able to be used with lower voltage than rated.
 
He00ebd18125f46d4bc1f23722b264fbfV.jpg


This is the bike in question.
 
antonbj3 said:
Programmable Controller is an interesting option, but they seem be at least double or triple the price point. I could probably get another motor for the front with the same money invested.

I missed the post where you mentioned your budget.
 
Yep. Bigger, faster... has a cost.

If you can’t spend at least as much as a motor, to buy a controller, and as much as them together to buy a battery... performance is a dream for the future.
 
markz said:
How tall are you?

antonbj3 said:
He00ebd18125f46d4bc1f23722b264fbfV.jpg


This is the bike in question.

180cm, The saddle is in hip height as I have bought a longer seatpost + one of those Steel "Feathers" suspension giving me an additional few centimeter. I prefer a higher riding position
 
E-HP said:
antonbj3 said:
Programmable Controller is an interesting option, but they seem be at least double or triple the price point. I could probably get another motor for the front with the same money invested.

I missed the post where you mentioned your budget.

The goal is to sell the bike eventually. So I prefer not to invest in stuff that is unlikely to be a selling point.

Beside, I am limited to 130x100mm, I have not found a programmable controller that would fit, if you know one, feel free to share.
 
antonbj3 said:
The goal is to sell the bike eventually. So I prefer not to invest in stuff that is unlikely to be a selling point.

Then why bother getting a more powerful than stock controller?

That bike is built to get in its own way. If you're not going to keep it, let it be the useless object it is.
 
antonbj3 said:
The goal is to sell the bike eventually. So I prefer not to invest in stuff that is unlikely to be a selling point.

I missed the post where you mentioned your budget. Was it your intention to be misleading in your initial post. It sounded like you had an upgrade path planned for the bike.
 
antonbj3 said:
Beside, I am limited to 130x100mm, I have not found a programmable controller that would fit, if you know one, feel free to share.
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/controllers/phaserunner-l10-motor-controller.html
 
Chalo said:
antonbj3 said:
The goal is to sell the bike eventually. So I prefer not to invest in stuff that is unlikely to be a selling point.

Then why bother getting a more powerful than stock controller?



That bike is built to get in its own way. If you're not going to keep it, let it be the useless object it is.

Because why not? I need to buy a new controller anyway. The controllers at 15-25-30amp rating are at almost the same price point.

I also have found a decent priced 60V Battery, my thinking was to be able use both 48V and 60V with the same form-factor of battery. But as explained in this thread, you can't use 48V Battery with a 60V controller.

I like the bike actually. Is there any specific reason you would deem it useless?

E-HP said:
antonbj3 said:
The goal is to sell the bike eventually. So I prefer not to invest in stuff that is unlikely to be a selling point.

I missed the post where you mentioned your budget. Was it your intention to be misleading in your initial post. It sounded like you had an upgrade path planned for the bike.

No of course it was not my intention to be misleading. I'm not sure why you would think that.

Thank you for the link, basically it doesn't really make sense in my mind to buy a controller that is 30% of the price of the whole bike.
 
I'll try to provide more information such as budget limitation in future posts. But the problem is I am exploring and learning about the subject myself, hence the vagueness.
 
antonbj3 said:
I'll try to provide more information such as budget limitation in future posts. But the problem is I am exploring and learning about the subject myself, hence the vagueness.

No time like the present, since any suggestion will be met with the same unknown budget constraint. Here are questions for you:
What is the amount you're willing to spend on that bike?
How are your soldering skills?
Do you own a digital multimeter?
Do you own wire crimpers?

Right now the advice would be to find as close to the exact controller as possible, swap it in, get the bike running, and ride it until you sell it.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26488
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
 
E-HP said:
antonbj3 said:
I'll try to provide more information such as budget limitation in future posts. But the problem is I am exploring and learning about the subject myself, hence the vagueness.


How are your soldering skills?
Do you own a digital multimeter?
Do you own wire crimpers?

Right now the advice would be to find as close to the exact controller as possible, swap it in, get the bike running, and ride it until you sell it.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26488
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302

Sounds to me like you do have a technical solution in mind? I'd be interested to hear it.

Although I don't have the soldering skills or gear(although gear is easy to get), I'd be interested to know what you'd suggest if I in fact had the skills and gear.

E-HP said:
antonbj3 said:
I'll try to provide more information such as budget limitation in future posts. But the problem is I am exploring and learning about the subject myself, hence the vagueness.


What is the amount you're willing to spend on that bike?



https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26488
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302

The amount really is flexible. I am interested in all things that increase resale value in proportion to the upgrade cost. Extra Large Capacity Battery, Total Range, Watt, these are things the average consumer understand.

But for simplicity sake, if I'm already spending 250USD for a 20Ah Battery, I'd probably want to limit cost of Controller below 100USD, less is better.


What did you think of my idea to install Two Controllers(1 60V, 1 48V) and have some kind of switch between them?
 
antonbj3 said:
I like the bike actually. Is there any specific reason you would deem it useless?

Would you enjoy riding it if you didn't have motor power to help? If not, then it's a bad bicycle even when you add motor power. And it's a laughably feeble, rickety little motorcycle.

There is a reason that fat tire, small wheel folding bikes weren't a thing until e-bike equipment became cheap and common. They resist your attempts to go anywhere.

The 36-48V, 22A controllers I've been using lately measure 40 x 66 x 127mm, not including the cables sticking out of the small side. You might be able to find a 48V 25A controller that small, but any more power will come in a bigger package.
 
Chalo said:
antonbj3 said:
I like the bike actually. Is there any specific reason you would deem it useless?

Would you enjoy riding it if you didn't have motor power to help? If not, then it's a bad bicycle even when you add motor power. And it's a laughably feeble, rickety little motorcycle.

There is a reason that fat tire, small wheel folding bikes weren't a thing until e-bike equipment became cheap and common. They resist your attempts to go anywhere.

The 36-48V, 22A controllers I've been using lately measure 40 x 66 x 127mm, not including the cables sticking out of the small side. You might be able to find a 48V 25A controller that small, but any more power will come in a bigger package.

I agree with you, I have had the misfortune of riding the bike with dead battery, good quad workout..

However, the folding function is a quality that is hard to quantify. I've travelled with it on Trains and such and had a really good time using it to explore this summer.
 
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