How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 17 2022 2:29pm

pwd wrote:
Jan 17 2022 2:16pm
That is my exact experience too, they aren't looking at their own speed. It is better to let them (the dummies) pass as you said (good advice); but sometimes that is easier said than done in the moment.
My area has golf courses and lot's of golf carts driving on the streets as well as an increasing number of ebikes so most drivers who live here are used to watching out for others.

Outside in the "real world" you get some mentally deranged people who seem offended by bikes.

It's usually the really fat person that has the big truck and just likes to mess with people.

Probably it's best to avoid any road where people need to get somewhere like getting in and out of an urban area.

Rural is my favorite. But you also sometimes get the MOST crazy out in the country too.

(a lot of times drunk and driving 100 mph)

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 17 2022 3:21pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 16 2022 11:25pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 16 2022 11:19pm
1. Fairings are extremely successful. What are talking about? Look at all the motorized cycles that have been using them for generation to generation. And the fairings just keep on getting better and better.
And yet bicycles, which were first, and which have the least power to waste, still use them at a 0.0% rate.
I think the problem is obvious. If a cyclist is making only 200
watts on a mixed course (flat, 10% uphill, -10% downhill) average speed is not going to be particularly fast. Even on a road bike I only got 11 mph average speed for the 157 lb rider and 9.6 mph for the 200 lb rider. Therefore if someone is concerned with wasting power then reducing weight would be something they would most easily grasp.

With that noted, the small zipper fairing should still improve average speed for a 200 pound 200 watt rider on the above mixed course. This because it is so lightweight (1.5 pounds with mounts) any negative effect on the climbing is still overshadowed by the improvement in aerodynamics despite the modest speed involved. Using the calculator I switched to "road bike hands on drops" which is an improvement (but still is supposed to be worse aerodynamics than a partial fairing with hands on tops) and then added 1.5 more pounds to the bike weight. Average speed did increase from 9.6 mph to 9.9 mph. Not earthshaking, but a good improvement nonetheless considering it's just "road bike hands on tops" vs. "road bike hands on drops" plus 1.5 pounds. The partial fairing should, of course, do better than that even with hands riding on the handlebar tops.
Last edited by ebike4healthandfitness on Jan 17 2022 5:14pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 17 2022 4:58pm

:?: What about posted speed limits?

If a street has a posted speed limit of 25 mph then a Class 3 ebike or a moped should be able to get around without causing any blockage to others.

But if the street has a posted limit of 35 mph or higher there is no way for the "micro bikes" to be up to speed.

So we really are in an awkward situation because what might "flow" perfectly in one area can be scary in another.

Generally a bicycle either needs a lane or a separate bike path that gives the cyclist their own way.

Otherwise you are going to be constantly dealing with cars passing you in conditions where at one moment the street is wide and in the next narrow.

A moped rider really needs to plan his route carefully to avoid streets where they are unable to keep pace.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 17 2022 5:24pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 17 2022 4:58pm
:?: What about posted speed limits?

If a street has a posted speed limit of 25 mph then a Class 3 ebike or a moped should be able to get around without causing any blockage to others.

But if the street has a posted limit of 35 mph or higher there is no way for the "micro bikes" to be up to speed.

So we really are in an awkward situation because what might "flow" perfectly in one area can be scary in another.

Generally a bicycle either needs a lane or a separate bike path that gives the cyclist their own way.

Otherwise you are going to be constantly dealing with cars passing you in conditions where at one moment the street is wide and in the next narrow.

A moped rider really needs to plan his route carefully to avoid streets where they are unable to keep pace.
City planning is important, but who is going to want to use class 2 bike lanes and class 3 bike routes if their transportation struggles up a hill? A moped is a two passenger vehicle and should be able to climb any hill at a timely and efficient speed or else people will not consider it and instead take a car or motorcycle.

Therefore mopeds and class 3 bikes need to be properly spec'd or else they will not be used very much. Same goes for class 1 and class 2 ebikes which also use these class 2 and 3 lanes in addition to class 1 lanes (i.e. bike path) and class 4 lanes (i.e. protected lanes).
Last edited by ebike4healthandfitness on Jan 17 2022 5:50pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 17 2022 5:46pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 17 2022 5:24pm
City planning is important, but who is going to want to use class 2 bike lanes and class 3 bike routes if their transportation struggles up a hill? A moped is a two passenger vehicle and should be able to climb any hill at a timely and efficient speed or else people will not consider it and instead take a car or motorcycle.

Therefore mopeds and class 3 ebikes need to be properly spec'd or else they will not be used very much.
Yes. That was my point.

We talk about all these restrictions on the ebike or moped but must come to terms with the reality of the places they must function.

And the real problem is that a 25 mph street "could" be successfully dealt with on only 750 watts of power, but what happens the moment there is a 6% hill or even a nightmare of 10% like in my area?

The core idea (as I see it) is to create a moped or ebike that fits into the 25 mph zones without problems.

Once you get into the 35 mph then 45 mph and finally freeway speeds you are outside what should be protected.

Our focus should be on a vehicle that can do 25 mph on streets limited to that without causing troubles even if there are hills.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 17 2022 5:56pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 17 2022 5:46pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 17 2022 5:24pm
City planning is important, but who is going to want to use class 2 bike lanes and class 3 bike routes if their transportation struggles up a hill? A moped is a two passenger vehicle and should be able to climb any hill at a timely and efficient speed or else people will not consider it and instead take a car or motorcycle.

Therefore mopeds and class 3 ebikes need to be properly spec'd or else they will not be used very much.
Yes. That was my point.

We talk about all these restrictions on the ebike or moped but must come to terms with the reality of the places they must function.

And the real problem is that a 25 mph street "could" be successfully dealt with on only 750 watts of power, but what happens the moment there is a 6% hill or even a nightmare of 10% like in my area?

The core idea (as I see it) is to create a moped or ebike that fits into the 25 mph zones without problems.

Once you get into the 35 mph then 45 mph and finally freeway speeds you are outside what should be protected.

Our focus should be on a vehicle that can do 25 mph on streets limited to that without causing troubles even if there are hills.
Agreed.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 17 2022 7:59pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 17 2022 4:58pm
:?: What about posted speed limits?

If a street has a posted speed limit of 25 mph then a Class 3 ebike or a moped should be able to get around without causing any blockage to others.

But if the street has a posted limit of 35 mph or higher there is no way for the "micro bikes" to be up to speed.

So we really are in an awkward situation because what might "flow" perfectly in one area can be scary in another.

Generally a bicycle either needs a lane or a separate bike path that gives the cyclist their own way.

Otherwise you are going to be constantly dealing with cars passing you in conditions where at one moment the street is wide and in the next narrow.

A moped rider really needs to plan his route carefully to avoid streets where they are unable to keep pace.
Do you think that street sweepers, earth movers, tractors etc. also need their own lanes?

Everyone, even folks on horses where I live, has a right to use the general traffic lane. If drivers have to slow down, they have to slow down. It's not wrong; it's just the deal when we all share the same roads.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 17 2022 8:11pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 17 2022 7:59pm
SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 17 2022 4:58pm
:?: What about posted speed limits?

If a street has a posted speed limit of 25 mph then a Class 3 ebike or a moped should be able to get around without causing any blockage to others.

But if the street has a posted limit of 35 mph or higher there is no way for the "micro bikes" to be up to speed.

So we really are in an awkward situation because what might "flow" perfectly in one area can be scary in another.

Generally a bicycle either needs a lane or a separate bike path that gives the cyclist their own way.

Otherwise you are going to be constantly dealing with cars passing you in conditions where at one moment the street is wide and in the next narrow.

A moped rider really needs to plan his route carefully to avoid streets where they are unable to keep pace.
Do you think that street sweepers, earth movers, tractors etc. also need their own lanes?

Everyone, even folks on horses where I live, has a right to use the general traffic lane. If drivers have to slow down, they have to slow down. It's not wrong; it's just the deal when we all share the same roads.
Yes, but that can slow traffic.

In fact, in some cities they want to reduce the number of Pedi-cabs in order to increase the flow of traffic.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ek-in-bans

"The total number of pedicabs would also be capped at a low-sounding 200 bikes. Tunney said in a statement that all these measures would “help legitimize the industry, increase public safety and improve the safe flow of traffic on our congested streets.” That last item could be a reference to the vehicles zipping around during rush hour, which some say causes gridlock on major thoroughfares like the Loop."

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 17 2022 11:08pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 17 2022 7:59pm
Everyone, even folks on horses where I live, has a right to use the general traffic lane. If drivers have to slow down, they have to slow down. It's not wrong; it's just the deal when we all share the same roads.
My point was that a freeway is designed to permit speeds that are radically higher than the 28 mph Class 3 or Moped level.

Very often the freeway has actual minimum posted speed limits... so it's already "not okay" to force others to slow down if the designation is as a freeway.

So basically my point is the ebike at 28 mph Class 3 or Moped should only use the middle of the road when it is posted as a 25 mph speed limit.

Then when you stumble into a 35 mph or 45 mph section you move to the shoulder assuming there even is one.

And really deep down it gets really dumb to be on those higher speed roads.

Fortunately in my current living situation my roads (about 20 miles to play with) are all 25 mph.

And let me add that in America we tend to have bigger motorcycles that weigh a lot and have over 250cc Four Stroke engines because you are not even allowed to go on a freeway with anything less.

Mopeds also have rules about which can go on the freeways and which are restricted to the slower roads but I'm not totally up on the rules about it.
Last edited by SafeDiscDancing on Jan 17 2022 11:17pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 17 2022 11:17pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 17 2022 11:08pm
Chalo wrote:
Jan 17 2022 7:59pm
Everyone, even folks on horses where I live, has a right to use the general traffic lane. If drivers have to slow down, they have to slow down. It's not wrong; it's just the deal when we all share the same roads.
My point was that a freeway is designed to permit speeds that are radically higher than the 28 mph Class 3 or Moped level.

Very often the freeway has actual minimum posted speed limits... so it's already "not okay" to force others to slow down if the designation is as a freeway.

So basically my point is the ebike at 28 mph Class 3 or Moped should only use the middle of the road when it is posted as a 25 mph speed limit.

Then when you stumble into a 35 mph or 45 mph section you move to the shoulder assuming there even is one.

And really deep down it gets really dumb to be on those higher speed roads.
That would be a good opportunity for protected bike lane (I.e. class 4 bike lane).

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 17 2022 11:22pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 17 2022 11:17pm
That would be a good opportunity for protected bike lane (I.e. class 4 bike lane).
My ebike is designed with wider tires and they are very capable of absorbing bumps up to a point.

When you get to speeds in excess of 28 mph and hit a bump you really start to need suspension.

And then you start adding weight and pretty soon it is more motorcycle than bicycle.

What I love about what I have now is how light it is at about 70 lbs.

I can literally lift my entire ebike if needed.

-----------------

Even if you added this special lane now you have the problem of a 20 mph ebike, a 28 mph ebike and some possible higher speed ebike all trying to use this lane while massive boxes of steel caging distracted humans race past you.
Last edited by SafeDiscDancing on Jan 17 2022 11:26pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 17 2022 11:25pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 17 2022 11:08pm
Chalo wrote:
Jan 17 2022 7:59pm
Everyone, even folks on horses where I live, has a right to use the general traffic lane. If drivers have to slow down, they have to slow down. It's not wrong; it's just the deal when we all share the same roads.
My point was that a freeway is designed to permit speeds that are radically higher than the 28 mph Class 3 or Moped level.

Very often the freeway has actual minimum posted speed limits... so it's already "not okay" to force others to slow down if the designation is as a freeway.
Freeways are restricted access. Other roads aren't. Other roads are for everyone, pedal bikes and equestrians included. Speed limits are just that-- limits, not mandates. Slower speeds are permissible, and slower vehicles have just as much right to the road as faster ones.

You've bought into some very poisonous car-centric thinking. We don't need separate roads; they are our roads too. Separate, as history has showed us, isn't equal.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 17 2022 11:33pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 17 2022 11:25pm
We don't need separate roads; they are our roads too. Separate, as history has showed us, isn't equal.
Here's what I see...

The truly "residential" roads tend to be 25 mph and those are the ones you ride on with little traffic worries.

Those 35 mph streets tend to be feeder routes to some bigger roads going to something like an onramp.

Then the 45 mph roads are the ones that could have been freeways, but maybe the location has dangers which made the engineers realize freeway speeds were unrealistic.

People on the 35 mph and 45 mph roads are GOING SOMEWHERE and it's likely for work so they are unhappy about it.

At least that's my read on it.

----------------

One last thing. My neighborhood is designed well in that there are no driveways open directly onto the street. So I never have people backing out of a driveway. All clusters feed out into the street so the drivers are facing straight ahead.

So as loing at you know these input locations you can not worry about that.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 17 2022 11:46pm

The roads should be split, one lane in each direction for automobiles motorcycles and trucks and the other 2 lanes for everyone else bicycles, velomobiles, small electric transport that just might be the conversion that will happen. You just cant trust drivers to change lanes so you frock them over by taking away their lanes.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 17 2022 11:50pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 17 2022 11:33pm
People on the 35 mph and 45 mph roads are GOING SOMEWHERE and it's likely for work so they are unhappy about it.
Well, I live in a place where streets can be fed by driveways end to end but still be speed rated 35 mph, 40 mph, or even higher. Recently most neighborhood streets which had been limited to 30 mph have been revised to 25, but there's negligible signage to reflect that change. Even more negligible is any sign of speed enforcement by the local cops. The cops are quick to swarm in and brutalize or murder a person of color, but nowhere to be found when drivers are flying around like they're trying to murder anyone crossing their path.

The nearest arterial to my house is full of people's houses, schools, parks, churches, libraries, community centers etc., but folks drive on it like it's an intercity highway. I've never once seen someone pulled over there for speeding. The best I can do is ride on it and let drivers consider slowing the hell down because I'm there and they don't want to mess up their cars.

Trying to go somewhere doesn't count more just because you're in a car. It should count less, you should have to yield to all other road users, because you've opted into a mode of transportation that makes the city worse for everyone.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 17 2022 11:55pm

calab wrote:
Jan 17 2022 11:46pm
The roads should be split, one lane in each direction for automobiles motorcycles and trucks and the other 2 lanes for everyone else bicycles, velomobiles, small electric transport that just might be the conversion that will happen. You just cant trust drivers to change lanes so you frock them over by taking away their lanes.
Practically speaking most residential roads are just one lane in each direction and sometimes with no shoulder at all.

So if you ride a bike on such a road either you get up enough speed to not have people behind you OR the driver must do a risky pass and cross over slightly into the opposite direction lane.

That's the true nightmare because the car might attempt that pass only to have to do an emergency swerve back as an incoming car surprises the driver. That's bad news now for THREE vehicles.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 18 2022 12:01am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 17 2022 11:50pm
The nearest arterial to my house is full of people's houses, schools, parks, churches, libraries, community centers etc., but folks drive on it like it's an intercity highway. I've never once seen someone pulled over there for speeding. The best I can do is ride on it and let drivers consider slowing the hell down because I'm there and they don't want to mess up their cars.
Sounds pretty crazy.

It's like that outside my little community and so I just don't go beyond my little world. I ride the same loops over and over and literally have memorized every bump. It's a good mix and I like it but at times I wish I had more places to ride. Plus the security folks already know me and so I'm not likely to get harassed.

Some places are just not bike friendly and your situation sounds less than ideal.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 18 2022 1:25am

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 17 2022 11:22pm

My ebike is designed with wider tires and they are very capable of absorbing bumps up to a point.

When you get to speeds in excess of 28 mph and hit a bump you really start to need suspension.

And then you start adding weight and pretty soon it is more motorcycle than bicycle.

What I love about what I have now is how light it is at about 70 lbs.

I can literally lift my entire ebike if needed.
Lightweight is important for me provided it is also safe.

One thing that has me a bit excited about the future is the possibility of structural battery packs using the 4680 cell. If frames can be built with the batteries as a stressed member that just leaves more room in the weight budget for safety items (or design) that might otherwise be too heavy for a conventional battery bike.

A good example is suspension. It adds weight, but maybe I'll still be able to get that in a structural battery bike while still having a fairly light overall weight.

P.S. Here are some pictures of the BMW Amby. I think it might be a structural battery bike...or at least partially a structural battery bike.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 18 2022 11:38am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 18 2022 1:25am
One thing that has me a bit excited about the future is the possibility of structural battery packs using the 4680 cell. If frames can be built with the batteries as a stressed member that just leaves more room in the weight budget for safety items (or design) that might otherwise be too heavy for a conventional battery bike.
The new electric Motocross bike designed to run directly against the gas powered bikes uses a battery as a stressed member frame built with magnesium which is light, strong and very capable of extracting heat.

I forget the name... Stark? It might be that.

Anyway... the numbers look impressive at 80 hp and the pro Motocross riders have tried the bike and like it.

"Stressed Member Batteries" seem the way to go. :bigthumb:

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 21 2022 11:38pm

How do you feel about Class 3 ebikes and mopeds not being allowed in Class 4 bike lanes (i.e. protected bike lanes).

Should that restriction be removed?

Do the pros of removing that restriction outweigh the cons? Or do the cons outweigh the pros?

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 22 2022 10:26am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 21 2022 11:38pm
Should that restriction be removed?
Just think in terms of physics.

A car is possibly 3,000 lbs... trucks can be 15,000 lbs or more.

When these vehicles hit something there is massive momentum involved.

A bicycle or ebike is going to run about 200 lbs for the rider and maybe 75 lbs maximum for the ebike. (100 lbs for a moped)

So from the danger standpoint it's hard to make a "Natural Law" argument that sounds legitimate.

Natural Law is supposed to be the basis of ALL law as it's what the Constitution was built upon.

The singular "Wrong" is to do material harm to another innocent human being.

And then our "Rights" are nearly infinite because anything that does no harm is a "Right".

But I think what really happens is people have become Dumbed Down over the last century and no longer understand basic things about how a civilized society functions so the laws are now being created by people with no clue of what limits are supposed to exist on them.

Each new law makes life more strict and that means less free.

So there is this "big picture" problem of vast deviation from concepts of basic "Rights" which are corrupting the laws to the point of absolute tyranny.

Because "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely".

But the Fabian Socialism Dumb and Dumber process was done slowly so we sort of wake up now in an increasing nightmare.

It would not surprise me if eventually they demand smartphone tracking apps to monitor bike safety.

--------------------------

However....

The problem with the bike lanes where pedal bikes interact with ebikes and mopeds is the speed differences.

When a moped traveling at 28 mph approaches a bicyclist going 18 mph that moped now must swerve out of the bike lane and into the car and truck lane to get past.

Now you have true danger because two bikes crashing into each other might cause some scratches, but if a car or truck hits a cyclist that's potentially fatal.

So I think it really is better that Class 3 ebikes and mopeds leave the bike lanes to pedal bikes.

At least that argument has a justification based in actual physics.

------------------

The ebike and moped ideally need the speed necessary to stay up with traffic flow.

Since these machines are set to a top speed of 28 mph or 30 mph this means they can travel easily in a street marked as 25 mph but are going to get swallowed up at the 35 mph limit.

It's a problem.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 22 2022 11:40am

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 22 2022 10:26am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 21 2022 11:38pm
Should that restriction be removed?
Just think in terms of physics.

A car is possibly 3,000 lbs... trucks can be 15,000 lbs or more.

When these vehicles hit something there is massive momentum involved.

A bicycle or ebike is going to run about 200 lbs for the rider and maybe 75 lbs maximum for the ebike. (100 lbs for a moped)

So from the danger standpoint it's hard to make a "Natural Law" argument that sounds legitimate.

Natural Law is supposed to be the basis of ALL law as it's what the Constitution was built upon.

The singular "Wrong" is to do material harm to another innocent human being.

And then our "Rights" are nearly infinite because anything that does no harm is a "Right".

But I think what really happens is people have become Dumbed Down over the last century and no longer understand basic things about how a civilized society functions so the laws are now being created by people with no clue of what limits are supposed to exist on them.

Each new law makes life more strict and that means less free.

So there is this "big picture" problem of vast deviation from concepts of basic "Rights" which are corrupting the laws to the point of absolute tyranny.

Because "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely".

But the Fabian Socialism Dumb and Dumber process was done slowly so we sort of wake up now in an increasing nightmare.

It would not surprise me if eventually they demand smartphone tracking apps to monitor bike safety.

--------------------------

However....

The problem with the bike lanes where pedal bikes interact with ebikes and mopeds is the speed differences.

When a moped traveling at 28 mph approaches a bicyclist going 18 mph that moped now must swerve out of the bike lane and into the car and truck lane to get past.

Now you have true danger because two bikes crashing into each other might cause some scratches, but if a car or truck hits a cyclist that's potentially fatal.

So I think it really is better that Class 3 ebikes and mopeds leave the bike lanes to pedal bikes.

At least that argument has a justification based in actual physics.

------------------

The ebike and moped ideally need the speed necessary to stay up with traffic flow.

Since these machines are set to a top speed of 28 mph or 30 mph this means they can travel easily in a street marked as 25 mph but are going to get swallowed up at the 35 mph limit.

It's a problem.
What about imposing a speed limit of 20 mph in the class 4 lane (i.e. protected lane)?

Maybe even move that 20 mph speed limit to class 2 lanes as well? This because Class 3 ebikes and mopeds share class 2 lanes with purely human powered bicycles as well as class 1 and 2 ebikes in addition to electric push scooters.

P.S. That part I bolded would be a class 2 lane. In a protected lane (i.e. class 4 lane) a cyclist can't enter traffic.

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SafeDiscDancing   10 kW

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 22 2022 12:15pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 22 2022 11:40am
What about imposing a speed limit of 20 mph in the class 4 lane (i.e. protected lane)?

Maybe even move that 20 mph speed limit to class 2 lanes as well? This because Class 3 ebikes and mopeds share class 2 lanes with purely human powered bicycles as well as class 1 and 2 ebikes in addition to electric push scooters.

P.S. That part I bolded would be a class 2 lane. In a protected lane (i.e. class 4 lane) a cyclist can't enter traffic.
You could do that.

What matters is Natural Law... was actual harm done?

If the speed is limited to 20 mph and the Class 3 ebikes and mopeds coexist peacefully then why not?

However, if there is an accident the guilt must take into consideration who did what.

If a moped rider ACTUALLY does harm he pays.

An easy solution is to spray paint "20 mph" every thousand feet in the bike lanes on the asphalt.

It's cheap and reminds the Class 3 ebikes and mopeds they need to cool it.

ebike4healthandfitness   10 kW

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 22 2022 2:01pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 22 2022 12:15pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 22 2022 11:40am
What about imposing a speed limit of 20 mph in the class 4 lane (i.e. protected lane)?

Maybe even move that 20 mph speed limit to class 2 lanes as well? This because Class 3 ebikes and mopeds share class 2 lanes with purely human powered bicycles as well as class 1 and 2 ebikes in addition to electric push scooters.

P.S. That part I bolded would be a class 2 lane. In a protected lane (i.e. class 4 lane) a cyclist can't enter traffic.
You could do that.

What matters is Natural Law... was actual harm done?

If the speed is limited to 20 mph and the Class 3 ebikes and mopeds coexist peacefully then why not?

However, if there is an accident the guilt must take into consideration who did what.

If a moped rider ACTUALLY does harm he pays.e

An easy solution is to spray paint "20 mph" every thousand feet in the bike lanes on the asphalt.

It's cheap and reminds the Class 3 ebikes and mopeds they need to cool it.
The Class 4 lanes (i.e. protected bicycle lanes) are a recent development but are growing in popularity. They are most used in high traffic and/or high speed areas. Trouble is what happens to Class 3 bikes and mopeds when the traffic is heavy, 35 or 45 mph and a Class 4 protected lane gets built instead of a class 2 lane?

calab   100 kW

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 22 2022 2:13pm

Protected lane makes you sound like its a 4' high concrete barrier the entire length of the lane with maybe a foot or two of spacing between each segment to help parkers or jaywalkers get to the sidewalk. Protected lane is more like a recycled 2" high parking curb spaced out if your so lucky or more likely lame ass flexible bendable pilons but the question you should be asking is how strictly are abuses of blocking or impeding those lanes enforced. It would be a great money maker for the city in revenue but sadly they dont give two shits about the safety of the vulnerable to 1-2 ton deadly weapons. It will be nice when automated driving is enforced so people actually stop behind stop lines and dont speed or tailgate, that hurdle will be a hard one to fully adopt as there will always be a certain segment that wants their crotches to vibrate with dino fuels and rumbles.

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