Intro and Best/Least expensive Options for Trident Titan w/Nuvinci 380 internal hub gearing

mmkrockaway · Apr 23, 2022

This may be my first posting here on ES, but I've certainly lurked through many postings over time. I'm not new to recumbent triking nor to e-bikes (since 2006). After two severe car accidents in the past decade, I'm left with diminished capacity for longer rides, tackling any more advanced terrain. I'm now a rails to trails rider, who occasionally takes the road when necessary, but not otherwise. My last riding experience of significant scope and length was three days at the Recumbent Retreat held out at Fort Stevens State Park in Oregon back in 2019, not long after I purchased this trike. I'm Looking to enhance my riding experience with an e-motor DIY setup.

I recently switched to a NuVinci 380 planetary geared rear wheel hub on my current ride, as the Trident Titan's derailleur was often in the weeds & debris in my rural location one too many times. Now coming out of the pandemic, I'm 80lbs heavier than I was going in, so my naïve choice to pick up the Titan in 2019 seems somewhat prescient. My former trike was a Terra Trike Tour, a ride I sorely miss these days for how comfortable it was.

I have two leftover 26" front hub 36V e-bike wheels from prior projects with wiring/controllers etc. battery works, etc., an old Currie 12V motor set up on what I call my Frankentrike (one of Sid Gowdy's Americruisers), plus a couple of other can motors that are still sitting new in boxes.

So, some complete e-trike setups are out of my budget range as a retiree. Had I had even more forethought, I would have bought the Titan e-trike new from their shop, but at the time, it didn't appeal to me, and I had a local seller who gave me a great price for his wife's practically new Titan folder with all the accessories I wanted. I'm not really liking the idea of the hung weight of a motor on the front boom, and I don't know if I want the complexity of a mid-drive set-up. I do like the new bottle cage type batteries they are coming out with. I don't need mega power nor any kind of excessive speed, and I've got local folk who could re-lace a wheel motor from a 26" wheel to a 20" wheel if I ask nicely. I've even thought of making a "bob" trailer to give me some push, rather than modifying my trike any further than I have, which could use one of my wheel hub motors with little or no modification. Your thoughts?

amberwolf · Apr 24, 2022

The simplest option to add power is to put the hubmotors on your trike, replacing the wheel(s) that are already there.

However...since like most deltas your trike uses single-ended "stub axle" wheels on the front, you can't safely use double-ended-axle motors there, as they'd only be supported from one end, and most motors don't have axles of sufficient quality/strength to do that. (plus you'd have to redesign the mount on the trike to work with the hubmotor axle design, and have those parts machined and fitted, etc.)

If the trike used complete double-sided forks on the front with normal bicycle-axle wheels and typical front dropout widths, then you'd just need adequate torque arms or plates/etc to secure the motors and they could be used directly (in the correct size wheels), but that's not an option for yours.

If you had a hubmotor (like the Grin All-Axle motor, with appropriate mounting hardware) designed to fit on front trike axles like yours, you can use just one motor in the front but it will take practice to handle the trike under power, vs using both wheels powered equally. (turns will take some practice under power either way). You'd use separate controllers on each motor, but you can use either one throttle (much easier to control) or separate (allows direct motor power steering, but is more difficult to keep perfectly straight via motor power; isn't necessary to be able to steer under power).

An example of a dual-front-motored trike like that is here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88266
and some other discussions of "stub axle" stuff here
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=101103
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=97766
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114418
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=98791

If you use a rear-width hubmotor you could replace the IGH rear wheel with it, and install the IGH in a jackshaft in the pedal chainline on the trike frame to keep your pedal gears, and use just a single-speed sprocket on the motor shell (this could be done on the brake rotor side, so that the IGH-as-jackshaft takes it's input as normal from the pedal chainline as-is, and it's output can be from a sprocket either bolted to it's own brake rotor mount or to the flanges. (brake-rotor-mountable sprockets already exist, and using the same size on both IGH and motor wheel would give 1:1 gearing between those; using the largest size that will fit and make a chainline clearing everything between will reduce sprocket/chain wear and increase engagement / torque handling).

A trailer for power can be problematic. It may require up to as much weight on the trailer as the trike/rider to provide sufficient traction to push you. Depends on the setup and conditions. Definitely requires enough trailer weight to keep the tire sticking to the surface, which again varies depending on conditions. A smaller diameter wheel will give more torque vs a larger one. Which tire to use will depend on the conditions you want to use it most under.

LewTwo · Apr 24, 2022

Just in case some is wondering about the bike being discussed: https://youtu.be/2DmZSPBF7lU

mmkrockaway · Apr 25, 2022

Thanks! Much info to pour over here.

Still parsing some of the details you mention & following links. Very helpful!
Mark

amberwolf said:
The simplest option to add power is to put the hubmotors on your trike, replacing the wheel(s) that are already there.

However...since like most deltas your trike uses single-ended "stub axle" wheels on the front, you can't safely use double-ended-axle motors there, as they'd only be supported from one end, and most motors don't have axles of sufficient quality/strength to do that. (plus you'd have to redesign the mount on the trike to work with the hubmotor axle design, and have those parts machined and fitted, etc.)

If the trike used complete double-sided forks on the front with normal bicycle-axle wheels and typical front dropout widths, then you'd just need adequate torque arms or plates/etc to secure the motors and they could be used directly (in the correct size wheels), but that's not an option for yours.

If you had a hubmotor (like the Grin All-Axle motor, with appropriate mounting hardware) designed to fit on front trike axles like yours, you can use just one motor in the front but it will take practice to handle the trike under power, vs using both wheels powered equally. (turns will take some practice under power either way). You'd use separate controllers on each motor, but you can use either one throttle (much easier to control) or separate (allows direct motor power steering, but is more difficult to keep perfectly straight via motor power; isn't necessary to be able to steer under power).

An example of a dual-front-motored trike like that is here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88266
and some other discussions of "stub axle" stuff here
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=101103
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=97766
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114418
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=98791

If you use a rear-width hubmotor you could replace the IGH rear wheel with it, and install the IGH in a jackshaft in the pedal chainline on the trike frame to keep your pedal gears, and use just a single-speed sprocket on the motor shell (this could be done on the brake rotor side, so that the IGH-as-jackshaft takes it's input as normal from the pedal chainline as-is, and it's output can be from a sprocket either bolted to it's own brake rotor mount or to the flanges. (brake-rotor-mountable sprockets already exist, and using the same size on both IGH and motor wheel would give 1:1 gearing between those; using the largest size that will fit and make a chainline clearing everything between will reduce sprocket/chain wear and increase engagement / torque handling).

A trailer for power can be problematic. It may require up to as much weight on the trailer as the trike/rider to provide sufficient traction to push you. Depends on the setup and conditions. Definitely requires enough trailer weight to keep the tire sticking to the surface, which again varies depending on conditions. A smaller diameter wheel will give more torque vs a larger one. Which tire to use will depend on the conditions you want to use it most under.

amberwolf · Apr 25, 2022

mmkrockaway said:
Thanks! Much info to pour over here. Still parsing some of the details you mention & following links. Very helpful!

If you have questions about any of it (especially complex stuff like the jackshaft option), just post them here and we can answer as needed.

Intro and Best/Least expensive Options for Trident Titan w/Nuvinci 380 internal hub gearing

mmkrockaway

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amberwolf

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LewTwo

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mmkrockaway

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amberwolf

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