Industry worried about fed regulations, selling “overpowered” bikes

john61ct

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/uxtuv9/ebike_industry_is_getting_a_bit_worried_about_fed
 
Well, some industry representatives are worried, but most of the people selling bikes that exceed class 2 speed limits or class "3" bikes with throttles, they don't attend those industry conferences. Too busy putting money in the bank, and they will be gone if someone looses the fed watchdogs/
 
docw009 said:
Well, some industry representatives are worried, but most of the people selling bikes that exceed class 2 speed limits or class "3" bikes with throttles, they don't attend those industry conferences.
... and neither do custom DIY World Leaders of the ES Power Pack Pals ... :bigthumb:
(name withheld) wrote: ↑May 19 2022
Anything reasonable ebike size ( read, legal, as an ebike) really could use smaller cells, with a better energy density, that would take you farther. I drain my 15Ah ( old, recently replaced, much older cell, 165wh/kG cell.. ) pack in 13 miles in 15 min. I would do this two or three times a day with only 1.2kWh capacity on my QS motor. ~100A load.
What classification does a custom e-bike fall into with a custom DIY EV pouch cell battery capable of feeding the latest powerful QS motor 100 amps of THRUST -- (Off-the-Radar :wink:) ?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=1716629#p1716629
 
I rarely agree with what the Texas legislature does but I do have to give them credit when they revised the state vehicle code to account for electric bicycles. They drew the line at achieving a speed of 30 miles per hour in a distance of one mile while powered by the motor. Anything above that is classed as a motorcycle. Below that it is a moped if does not have method of being human propelled or a bicycle if it does. That seems reasonable to this old redneck.
 
The Canadian regulations for importing ebikes changed in 2021.

On February 4, 2021, Transport Canada repealed the previous definition of a power-assisted bicycle. Instead, Transport Canada will assess the design and speed of the e-bike in order to determine if it is regulated under the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations.

Transport Canada will regulate your e-bike if it:

Can travel faster at speeds of 32 km/h / 20 miles/h or greater (power assisted)
Is equipped with features that resemble on-road motorcycles or vehicles

For E-bikes equipped with speed limiters, Transport Canada will first assess the e-bike based upon the untethered speed capacity to determine if the e-bike is regulated.

https://www.pcb.ca/post/everything-you-need-to-know-to-import-your-e-bike-into-canada

E-Bikes are also regulated at the Provincial and Territory level, so it is good practice to check with your local government for regulations prior to importing or purchasing an e-bike.

Vendors like Luna won't ship their ebikes to Canada anymore.

So far the authorities haven't started worrying about kits or actual motors. A BBSHD kit, for example, advertised as 1000 watts is clearly illegal, unless you want to consider it a regulated vehicle , valid insurance, motor vehicle taxes etc..
Its hard to see how this is going to play out, its easier and cheaper to build a fast ebike than buying one.

What is the untethered speed capacity anyway? Slap a high voltage battery and a new controller on just about any ebike and you will soon be busting all the speed and power rules.

I haven't seen any enforcement at the local level yet, but I am waiting for the day when the high powered e-motos start tearing up the bike trails in the foothills. Then the restrictions and the arguments about what is a legal ebike will get really interesting.
 
Is speeding not a victimless 'crime'?
Are the US states regs Motor Vehicle or Dept Envion Protection because who would enforce ANY ( either or both trail + road )
& in which jurisdiction?

Euro regs seem related to their myriad of interrelated insurance rules for:
injury , liability , and who requires extra insurance (€£€¢)
 
I can't see the article, but sure, if I were making electric bicycles for the American market, there'd be a little concern that things would settle down to a nation-wide standard limit, where my stuff would be on the wrong side of that. Production would have to come to a halt, current inventory sold off in a hurry before the axe falls if possible, redesign to meet regulations, likely new suppliers. A small company can laugh at that, easier than a big one.

The big guys should be looking at a moped - NHTSA "motor driven cycle", under 5HP, with the usual appurtenances like mirrors and lights, and "homologated" to be licensable by state DMVs.
 
donn said:
I can't see the article, ....
Try this URL .... it is s direct link to the story
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2022/05/20/e-bike-regulation-discussion-%E2%80%98eye-opener%E2%80%99-industry#.YpDrSnXMLmE
 
Hm, some elements of a tease here. I mean, like some of this is to encourage industry people to drop some money on these consultants to get the complete story. For example
Vehicles that exceed that [20 mph, 750W] can be subject to NHTSA regulations. NHTSA regulations do not apply to offroad vehicles, but just declaring a vehicle as an off-roader is not sufficient. Vehicles that can and are used on public roads, even if they are marketed as offroad vehicles, can become subject to NHTSA regulations.

Speed governors on e-bikes can keep a bike within the 20mph cut-off. But if the governors are easily defeated by consumers, NHTSA could exert its authority. Manufacturers who become aware that their bikes can be modified to exceed the limit could be held liable, she said.

"... and here's my card", she said.

I don't know. Like I said, one way out is to bite the bullet and accept that your product is a moped, for regulatory purposes. (I don't know about the US as a whole, this is relative to Washington State's definition, under 2HP and up to 30mph.) The problem with that is that mopeds can't go on bicycle paths, so they really need every bit of that 2HP and 30mph is borderline as well. My e-recumbent closely matches the moped limits, but it isn't a really good choice for major arterials here - it's a major feature that I can do that at all, but I usually ride much more like a bicycle. Grey area.
 
People have been worrying about this for ages.

My take.. enjoy your not so legal ride while you can, and think about building something on a scooter frame in the future if shit hits the fan with your local laws.
 
This seems to apply to manufacturers and most are in China, so impervious. If you want to see some crazy vehicles look at electric unicycles which are starting to proliferate on trails in socal. They can weigh up to 100 pounds, with 134 V motors and travel in excess of 50 mph. One major manufacturer is in Canada, with the rest in Asia AFAICT.
 
2old said:
This seems to apply to manufacturers and most are in China, so impervious.

If you think the foreign origin of an e-bike exempts it from local laws, you ought to try legally importing and registering a car into California from China . . . or Nebraska.
 
2old said:
This seems to apply to manufacturers and most are in China, so impervious. If you want to see some crazy vehicles look at electric unicycles which are starting to proliferate on trails in socal. They can weigh up to 100 pounds, with 134 V motors and travel in excess of 50 mph. One major manufacturer is in Canada, with the rest in Asia AFAICT.
It applies to American Distributors as well.
 
simonov said:
2old said:
This seems to apply to manufacturers and most are in China, so impervious.

If you think the foreign origin of an e-bike exempts it from local laws, you ought to try legally importing and registering a car into California from China . . . or Nebraska.
Apparently you didn't understand the statement, but it would be an interesting experiment for you to try and sue a Chinese owned manufacturing business.
 
LewTwo said:
2old said:
This seems to apply to manufacturers and most are in China, so impervious. If you want to see some crazy vehicles look at electric unicycles which are starting to proliferate on trails in socal. They can weigh up to 100 pounds, with 134 V motors and travel in excess of 50 mph. One major manufacturer is in Canada, with the rest in Asia AFAICT.
It applies to American Distributors as well.
If NHTSA can sue distributors, Luna better watch out since AFAIK there's been at least one Sur Ron death in socal.
 
2old said:
simonov said:
2old said:
This seems to apply to manufacturers and most are in China, so impervious.

If you think the foreign origin of an e-bike exempts it from local laws, you ought to try legally importing and registering a car into California from China . . . or Nebraska.
Apparently you didn't understand the statement, but it would be an interesting experiment for you to try and sue a Chinese owned manufacturing business.
They don't bother with the manufacturers, they go after the importers, distributors, retailer . . . and owners.

The article appeared on bicycleretailer.com, so naturally it was targeted at industry players. But all the industry players are not in China (if they were, bicycleretailer.com wouldn't be in English), and neither of course are all the end users.
 
simonov said:
2old said:
simonov said:
2old said:
This seems to apply to manufacturers and most are in China, so impervious.

If you think the foreign origin of an e-bike exempts it from local laws, you ought to try legally importing and registering a car into California from China . . . or Nebraska.
Apparently you didn't understand the statement, but it would be an interesting experiment for you to try and sue a Chinese owned manufacturing business.
They don't bother with the manufacturers, they go after the importers, distributors, retailer . . . and owners.

The article appeared on bicycleretailer.com, so naturally it was targeted at industry players. But all the industry players are not in China (if they were, bicycleretailer.com wouldn't be in English), and neither of course are all the end users.
It's laughable trying to sue owners when individuals are riding around (road, off road and bike paths) with impunity on e-bikes and EUC's that have massive amounts of power. Some day a policing structure may evolve, but not until there's a big budget for it. The meeting agenda was primarily associated with manufacturers, and if there's a glitch in importing, individuals will purchase directly from China as many do now.
 
2old said:
It's laughable trying to sue owners when individuals are riding around (road, off road and bike paths) with impunity on e-bikes and EUC's that have massive amounts of power.
Riders won't be sued, they will be cited.

There are people in places like California and New York who are being charged with felonies today for being in possession of firearms that were perfectly legal ten years ago. It's a handy blueprint for how to deal with troublesome trends in technology.
 
My take is that the whistle was blown by the lobbying side of the ebike industry, PFB cough cough, here in the U.S. because they know they are already playing ball with their "Class 1" status bikes which are linked more closely with the EU regulations than what have been on the books here for years federal and most states. So if the extremely high fine potential is instituted it won't be any skin off their bottom lines and in fact probably up their market share even further by getting rid of the "bottom feeders" selling bikes with higher wattage on tap.

Going to take awhile for it to sort out though at the manufacturer/importer level and even longer for the DIY market China direct I predict. Even longer yet if you just ride with a modicum of mentality no matter how many watts you have and where you ride it. Don't be a Simon......
 
Weekend crime fighting

"Prospect Park and other municipal greenspaces now have signs at various entrances reading “no motorized or electric bikes, scooters, and ATVs.”

Despite seemingly conflicting with state law and city policy, the Parks Department often deputizes both its own police force and NYPD officers to write tickets for e-cyclists riding in parks or even on greenways. That’s because the legalization language in the 2021 state budget created a massive carveout for any municipalities to further regulate e-bikes however they see fit. While DOT has its own guidelines governing e-bikes on city streets, the far stricter Parks Department guidance remains in effect in that agency’s domain.

The enforcement also conflicts with the fact that city parks, including Prospect Park, house Citi Bike docks where riders can stow and unlock one of the bikeshare program’s thousands of pedal-assist two-wheelers.

“[The officers] seemed to think the rule was bulls—t too, honestly,” O’Reilly said. “They did that kind of wink wink thing, if you continue on we have to fine you $150.”
 
Stealth_Chopper said:
Weekend crime fighting

"Prospect Park and other municipal greenspaces now have signs at various entrances reading “no motorized or electric bikes, scooters, and ATVs.”

Despite seemingly conflicting with state law and city policy, the Parks Department often deputizes both its own police force and NYPD officers to write tickets for e-cyclists riding in parks or even on greenways. That’s because the legalization language in the 2021 state budget created a massive carveout for any municipalities to further regulate e-bikes however they see fit. While DOT has its own guidelines governing e-bikes on city streets, the far stricter Parks Department guidance remains in effect in that agency’s domain.

The enforcement also conflicts with the fact that city parks, including Prospect Park, house Citi Bike docks where riders can stow and unlock one of the bikeshare program’s thousands of pedal-assist two-wheelers.

“[The officers] seemed to think the rule was bulls—t too, honestly,” O’Reilly said. “They did that kind of wink wink thing, if you continue on we have to fine you $150.”

No e-bikes at all, including the ubiquitous pedal assist 250W step-throughs that all the grannies ride?

Seems a bit severe. It seems there is a mish mash of conflicting regulations, that makes an innocuous pedelec bike legal on one path and turns you into a dangerous criminal on another.
 
NYC is not meticulous about being "fair".

Arbitrary enforcement left up to the individual copper is likely a better scenario than universal "objective" enforcement.

But the PoC / immigrant communities relying on eBikes for their living are victimised far more than any grannies.
 
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