406 vs 408

I currently have a Crystalyte 408 rear motor but due to several problems, I am considering buying a new one. I think I'd like to stick to a 400-series motor and I'm hoping to get feedback/considerations on what winding count to buy ie 406 or 408. Here's my parameters:

1) I weigh about 160lbs. The bike, including motor and Li-ion battery is about 67 lbs (so total weight of rider+bike is about 230lbs)
2) I use it mainly for commuting to work which is 11km (about 7 miles) each way
3) my route has only a few small hills and I don't mind pedaling on the hilly parts (ie to prevent the motor from stalling)
4) I currently have a 36V Li-ion battery (although once it eventually wears out, I think I'd upgrade to 48V)
5) in general, I was satisfied with the performance of the 408 but its top speed was around 32km/h (20 mile/h) and it would be nice to get to 40km/h (25 miles/h) at least on the flats

I am leaning toward the 406 due to the higher top speed but I'm hoping to get some feedback from anyone who is knowledgeable and/or has experience with motors of different winding counts ie how much would I be sacrificing in terms of torque?

P.S. I am aware of the ebike.ca hub motor simulator but I am hoping to get some actual user feedback (as opposed to just looking at graphs)

Thanks!

Drop an extra 12v to the 408 !

All clyte hub motors run way better on 48v.

if you absolutely must run 36v, get a 406.

Thanks for the reply Ypedal.

Unfortunately, I am somewhat constrained financially. I currently have a 36V controller so if I were to follow your suggestion then, in addition to buying a 12V battery, I would also have to buy a higher voltage controller.

nope.. the 36v crystalyte controller will work just fine at 48v ! :wink:

Though I'm the aotema guy here, I think a lower winding count motor would get you a bit more speed cheapest. I believe my aomema is a 7 count motor, and it goes 23mph on a 36v ping. Is a 407 avaliable? Nothing wrong with the 406 as long as the hills aren't so steep or long. It will most likely seem a bit sluggish off the line compared to the 408, but so what? A few brisk strokes of the pedals cures that. As Ypedal advises, go for the 48v when you are buying a battery, but right now you just want a motor right? Adding one sla in series is an option too.

Hi Ypedal,
Why is it called a "36V" controller if it can be used at 48V? (there has to be a catch e.g. increased risk of burnout)

Hi Dogman,
I think a 407 would be a good compromise but so far I haven't been able to find one for sale. And yes, right now, I just want the motor (not enough $ for a new Lithium battery yet). Re your note about "adding one sla in series", is it ok to mix Lithium Ion with SLA? (I actually posted a more detailed question about this in a separate post)

In my opinion, the typical 48 v controller is really a 36v one. At 36, the 60 0r 63 v caps in it have a healthy head space from the hot off the charger voltage 44-46 v for most types of 36v battery. But at 48v, they are pretty much at rated capacity. Supposedly there is some more head space built into the rated capacity, but that asumes that they have decent quality controll in the cap factory in China. Uh Huh. I suspect if your controller is blowing at 48v, it was gonna blow at 36 due to the QC issue. The fets inside have different ratings, and generally the beefier ones are found in higher rated controllers.

Other controller manufacturers use different stuff. My fusin controller is definitely 36v since it has 50 v caps in it. 48v hot off the charger will likely toast it for sure. Clyte controllers, at least more recent ones from ebikes.ca, are capable of 36v or 48 v and labeled as such. Aotema lables their controllers 36v, but they have 63v caps and many run them at 48v.

Re the add an sla. I belive some have done that , adding a 12v sla to a 36v lifepo4 pack to go to 48v. Usually called a boost pack and used just for a hill, or fast street. I shouldnta mentioned it, personally the PITA factor is too much for me to do that kind of thing. I would consider it a temporary solution at best, not something to set up permanently. But it can be a way to cheaply decide if you want or like 48v. A $50 sla is a lot cheaper experiment than a new lifepo4 pack.

Wound up and volt up!
408's are animic at 36v, but realy run well at 48. The speed of a 48V 408 and a 36V 406 would be the same, but the 408 will have better torque and acceleration, better efficancy during acceleration too.

I run a 4012 and 408. its not exactly the same situation, but running the higher wind count at higher voltages is just more fun

Cool, how much money are you sending him? 8) Of course next time he needs a new battery he'll be going 48v. Tourqe and acceleration can still come from the legs when needed, using the proper gear for those of us that don't have more batteries in the budget. :wink:

I do agree, though, I'd rather have a 408 at 48 than a 406 at 36. But if stuck with 36, I'd think about the 406. I'm not so into speed, but 25 mph is nice compared to 20.

dogman said:

Cool, how much money are you sending him? 8) .

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Seriously though, 12V 10AH More of Lithium battery could cost less than $100. (60 for lipo)the motor would be more expensive from that perspective.

I've thought about adding 12V (10 Ah) Lithium (either LiFePO4 or LiPo) but I've never seen any batteries less than 24V for sale. Can you tell me where I could find one? Of course, another cost to getting a new 12V Lithium battery would also be buying a 12V charger although I would think that both together would be still be less than a new motor.

That's true, I was thinking of the whole pack cost, like $800 for a new 48v 20 ah or something. On top of the motor, which I thought, he was going to have to buy anyway.

In any case, I guess I'll never get the quest for torque and acceleration on ebikes. I'd just go for a gasoline engine if that is what I want. A chinese 200 cc enduro costs less than most of us have spent on an e bike. I'm just happy on the ebike if I get to 25 mph eventually. I doubt I'd be at all satisfied with low torque and slow pick up if I was still in my thirties. I usuallly only use half throttle till I'm going 15 mph anyway just for efficiency and to avoid excess motor heating.

"currently have a Crystalyte 408 rear motor but due to several problems, I am considering buying a new one. "

I used to run my 406/409 motor on 36 volts -- it was a Huge improvement on 48 volts. I did not switch the controller
and have not had any controller burnouts. If your motor and controller are working then 48 volts is the way to go for improved top speed. I bouhgt batteies from Justin at reasonable prices- and my Ping 48 15 amphr was like 500. LIPOs however are expensive, but maybe the booster pack is the way to go? make a nice harness so it connects easy , do you have any SLA bricks hanging around ? To add in series

Lipo can be so cheap now its crazy

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9184
$29.95, for a 5 AH. you would probably need to parrallel 2, so $60.00

and for the charger / balancer,
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/...oduct_Name=Turnigy_420_Balancer/Charger_2S~4S
is $24. you could buy 2. Power converters are as cheap as $10 from them as well.

But if you don't mind a 6 hour charge time, they have these for $4.50:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/...Product_Name=Turnigy_balancer_&_Charger_2S-3S

thanks to all of you for your feedback

Salutations stevo
I have a 408 at 48v it is a great combination.It will get you 40k(I have 24 inch wheel).However I recomend you buy nicad for you next battery.Having used both I find the nicad less affected by cold weather.It is also cheaper and should last longer.I realise that nicad is not popular,but it has served me well.
EDWIN

EDWIN said:

Salutations stevo
I have a 408 at 48v it is a great combination.It will get you 40k(I have 24 inch wheel).However I recomend you buy nicad for you next battery.Having used both I find the nicad less affected by cold weather.It is also cheaper and should last longer.I realise that nicad is not popular,but it has served me well.
EDWIN

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Why on earth would you want to go from lithium to nicad? I really doubt that you could get more cycles out of the nicad cells they use for ebikes, than lithium cells. Very high quality nicad cells, I know can be used almost indefinitely. But the cheap ones are a far cry from that. Plus the weight penalty of nicad! And the lower discharge rate! bah =/ not for me.