new to e-bikes

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
tartosuc   10 W

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new to e-bikes

Post by tartosuc » Jul 25 2007 2:48pm

Hi my name is Bernard, i'm new to ebikes,
I have a chopper that i've built this summer in order to make an electric conversion for next summer.
I've read a lot on this site and i must say there's tons of infos!

anyone here ever use the etek motor?

heres the chooper that will be converted.:

Image
the more you pedal slower, the slower you ride faster!

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Ypedal   100 GW

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Post by Ypedal » Jul 25 2007 3:04pm

Hey bernard !!

Welcome to the forum !

I recognise the picture from the chopper forum !

Etek = Overkill !

Alot to read around here.. i'm sure we can find some great ways to electrify your chopper !
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tartosuc   10 W

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Post by tartosuc » Jul 25 2007 3:19pm

oops i think i'm in the wrong category!

moderators can you move this post to ebike general discution?

thanks
the more you pedal slower, the slower you ride faster!

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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » Jul 25 2007 3:27pm

Cool. Welcome aboard.
Topic moved, no problem. We're not real picky about stuff like that here.

"Too much is not enough".
An Etek will certainly make that thing burn rubber with the right batteries and controller :twisted:
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Jul 25 2007 3:30pm

You want to do something like this?
http://www.electricrider.com/custom/index.htm

Image
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Jul 25 2007 3:34pm

fechter wrote: "Too much is not enough".
An Etek will certainly make that thing burn rubber with the right batteries and controller :twisted:
Yes, but what's it take to make the frame and particularly the dropouts handle 15,000 watts?

If he'd be happy at a measly 5000 watts, then an X5 would fit the bill nicely without much, if any, additional frame modification.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

tartosuc   10 W

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Post by tartosuc » Jul 25 2007 3:39pm

I actually dont know excatly what to do as far as conversion goes...

I can go with systems like bionx or crystalite journeyman that would be expensive but not too bulky(read here easy to hide) and probably enough for my 35km commute.

or i could go with a complete custom setup with external motor. thats why i was asking about the e-tek, i knew it was probably overkill but i did not see anything done with it yet and i dont have any reference as far a power goes(what enough, whats not)!

i also saw smaller motors like kollomorgen 400w motor that seems to be reliable and simple to use(internal controller to use with 5k potientiometer)and also cheap! I could go chain drive, belt drive of maybe friction drive on the rear tire directly...anyone ever tried that?

I'm seeking any ideas. the simpler the better, i'm not against doing any fabrication, but i'd rather not do any electronics mods.

like i said i'm new to this so any suggestion would be considered.

thanks in advance for your help.
the more you pedal slower, the slower you ride faster!

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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Jul 25 2007 4:00pm

tartosuc wrote:I actually dont know excatly what to do as far as conversion goes...

I can go with systems like bionx or crystalite journeyman that would be expensive but not too bulky(read here easy to hide) and probably enough for my 35km commute.

or i could go with a complete custom setup with external motor. thats why i was asking about the e-tek, i knew it was probably overkill but i did not see anything done with it yet and i dont have any reference as far a power goes(what enough, whats not)!
The ETEK is overkill in the sense that it's designed to happily run at around 15,000 watts. This is about 20 hp -- enough to shred any typical, unmodified bike frame. Enough that you'd have to dial back the power in order not to get dumped off the rear end. And if you have to dial back the power to even ride it, then you probably don't need or won't want the ETEK because there are lighter, stealthier options that still produce gobs of power compared to an unelectrified bike. In other words, for a bicycle, I don't see the sense in an ETEK unless you really, really want to modify the frame extensively, and then use it for drag racing.

As far as power:
An elite long-distance cyclist can maintain 450 watts for hours; an elite short-track cyclist can generate bursts of about 1800 watts for 5 seconds.
If you don't have an ebike nearby to try, to get an idea what you might want or need, I'd suggest playing around the bicycle speed and power calculator:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
i also saw smaller motors like kollomorgen 400w motor that seems to be reliable and simple to use(internal controller to use with 5k potientiometer)and also cheap! I could go chain drive, belt drive of maybe friction drive on the rear tire directly...anyone ever tried that?
Though I haven't tried a friction-drive, I read many user reports before deciding myself what kind of ebike I wanted. In sum, friction drives are reported to be notoriously problematic, requiring lots of adjustments, wear on tires, problems when wet. I'd go chain or hubmotor. I went chain and hubmotor. :)

I love the quiet stealth and power of my brushless crystalyte hubmotor. I feed it 2,500 watts from lithium batteries through a 35 amp controller. It has a top speed of 44mph and can climb the steepest hills cars typically climb at around 15-20mph with or without pedaling.

I modified my chain-drive Currie ebike to run at about 1,100 watts (from a stock of 840 watts). Not nearly the get-up-and-go of my 2,500 watt hubmotor -- but enough to cruise at 23mph without pedaling, and provide moderate assist up medium steep hills. My Currie has a brushed motor, so it's much louder, less efficient, and the brushes need replacing every few thousand miles or so. But at $300, it was comparatively cheap.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

tartosuc   10 W

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Post by tartosuc » Nov 15 2007 1:55pm

ok,

so I decided to go with a hub motor..
now wich one? (you guy's are really technical on this website and i kind of get lost)

I can go either front or rear wheel drive it does not matther here. If i go rear i have choice of 24 or 26" wheel but it has to have disc brake attachment.
i need to travel 30-35km daily as long as i get speeds around 25-30km/h i will be happy.

is there any kit readily available?

if so, where do i get them in canada?

if not what is the recommended place in canada to buy electric bike parts?
the more you pedal slower, the slower you ride faster!

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vanilla ice   100 MW

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Post by vanilla ice » Nov 15 2007 3:13pm

http://www.ebikes.ca/store has hub motors. Everything they sell will do more than 30kph. Thats not asking much.

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Drunkskunk   100 GW

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Post by Drunkskunk » Nov 15 2007 3:43pm

tartosuc wrote:ok,

so I decided to go with a hub motor..
now wich one? (you guy's are really technical on this website and i kind of get lost)

I can go either front or rear wheel drive it does not matther here. If i go rear i have choice of 24 or 26" wheel but it has to have disc brake attachment.
i need to travel 30-35km daily as long as i get speeds around 25-30km/h i will be happy.

is there any kit readily available?

if so, where do i get them in canada?

if not what is the recommended place in canada to buy electric bike parts?
Nice looking Chopper there. Welcome to the forum.

As Vanilla Ice said Ebikes.CA is the place to go in Canada for motors and most of what you need. Itselectric.com is another good canadian sorce but I only recomend them for Lithium batteries and parts that Justin at Ebikes doesn't sell.

there is a choice on rear hub motors between a high torque but noisy Puma and the silent Crystalyte. Both have the potintial for the same top end power but the Crystalyte gives you more motors to chose from to pick the best speed and efficantcy. The Crystalyte can also me ordered with a mount for a rear disk brake. IMHO rear motors are far more stealth.


30km range at 30kph isn't that hard, a 408 motor on a 26 inch wheel should do the speed. a 406 or 407 would do it for a 24 inch wheel I bet. Thats running at 48Volts. Your range is dependant on the batteries and the aerodynamics of your bike. 500 watts might work, more would be better.

tartosuc   10 W

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Post by tartosuc » Nov 15 2007 4:37pm

Drunkskunk wrote:
tartosuc wrote:ok,

so I decided to go with a hub motor..
now wich one? (you guy's are really technical on this website and i kind of get lost)

I can go either front or rear wheel drive it does not matther here. If i go rear i have choice of 24 or 26" wheel but it has to have disc brake attachment.
i need to travel 30-35km daily as long as i get speeds around 25-30km/h i will be happy.

is there any kit readily available?

if so, where do i get them in canada?

if not what is the recommended place in canada to buy electric bike parts?
Nice looking Chopper there. Welcome to the forum.

As Vanilla Ice said Ebikes.CA is the place to go in Canada for motors and most of what you need. Itselectric.com is another good canadian sorce but I only recomend them for Lithium batteries and parts that Justin at Ebikes doesn't sell.

there is a choice on rear hub motors between a high torque but noisy Puma and the silent Crystalyte. Both have the potintial for the same top end power but the Crystalyte gives you more motors to chose from to pick the best speed and efficantcy. The Crystalyte can also me ordered with a mount for a rear disk brake. IMHO rear motors are far more stealth.


30km range at 30kph isn't that hard, a 408 motor on a 26 inch wheel should do the speed. a 406 or 407 would do it for a 24 inch wheel I bet. Thats running at 48Volts. Your range is dependant on the batteries and the aerodynamics of your bike. 500 watts might work, more would be better.
thanks for the infos

what about batteries, I was more thinking 36v system, but 48 is do-able, what amp/hours batteries would a need to have that type of range?
the more you pedal slower, the slower you ride faster!

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Drunkskunk   100 GW

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Post by Drunkskunk » Nov 15 2007 5:29pm

Higher voltage will give the motor more "kick" off the line and make it accelerate better. It also means lower amps to make the same wattage so your amp load on your controller and wires will be lower. that means less heat and less chance of burring something out.

at 48 volts, a 10 amp battery will give you 480 watts. that might do your 30Km at 30KPH depending on your weight, how well your bike rolls and wind resistance.
The thing to remember about batteries is you really can't ever use 100% of what they are rated for on an Ebike. For SLA batteries, its more like 50%. For other types, its in the 80% range.

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Post by vanilla ice » Nov 15 2007 5:39pm

In sum, friction drives are reported to be notoriously problematic, requiring lots of adjustments, wear on tires, problems when wet.
I think a couple of heavy duty springs to pull the roller to the tire would be easier than a rigid system. I can't remember but maybe I saw this somewhere here.

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Post by tartosuc » Nov 15 2007 7:52pm

Drunkskunk wrote:Higher voltage will give the motor more "kick" off the line and make it accelerate better. It also means lower amps to make the same wattage so your amp load on your controller and wires will be lower. that means less heat and less chance of burring something out.

at 48 volts, a 10 amp battery will give you 480 watts. that might do your 30Km at 30KPH depending on your weight, how well your bike rolls and wind resistance.
The thing to remember about batteries is you really can't ever use 100% of what they are rated for on an Ebike. For SLA batteries, its more like 50%. For other types, its in the 80% range.


my idea was to try first with sla batteries due to initial cost of getting started, i can acces some 12v20amps\h for cheap, but they are almost 20lbs each! so i was thinking using 36v to save weight, can I just put better controllers and wires to reduce chances of burning something and still keep a range close to 30km?(iI will pedal assist and it's mostly flat on my commute to work)

by the way, te bike as had some changes during the summer..here it is.

i'm thinking of going with 24" wheels and bigger 3" tires...

Image
Last edited by tartosuc on Nov 29 2007 11:24am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by BiGH » Nov 23 2007 8:35am

hey buddy,

I've run my 408 at 36v 48v and 72v. 36v i just found boring. top speed was low (aroud 30kph) and the bike just felt slow. 48v gave it a fresh belt of speed. max of 40 and a much larger smile on my face. It felt like a bike that you would enjoy riding.

at 72v its an animal, other's comments are not "an enjoyable ride" and more of a "holly crap i have to have one of these, how much do i have to spend?"

My suggestion to you would be to get a 408 or 5304 ( if you want higher speeds etc) and run a minimum of the new 72v 35a controllers. You could go the top end controller with the 4110 fets (that is a max 50a controller), you need to make sure your batteries are up to it, or use a cycleanaylist to limit the amps. the top end one is essentially bulletproof. We've got members that are running around 100v through these at peaks of 60a and not blowing things up.

i remmember seeing 30kph on this thread... run 72 as two packs of 36v lifepo4s - that way you can run one then the other for a very long range, or 72v for higher speed. :)

also make sure with any lithium pack you get also see if you can get a single cell charger, you might need it to properly balance the pack.
Bike / Motor: Electric specalized rock hopper with Crystalyte 504 / 26"
Batt: Yesa 72v (36v*2) (getting 6.7ah) LiFEPO4 in a Topeak bag. OR 1x eMTB 48v 20ah pack (straps to frame) -depending on range requirements.
Controller: Unmodified 48a digital with 4110 Fets
Current Prob: Bike is in parts getting painted / drying / testing replacement BMS
Trail of Dead Parts:Avanti Frame, 408 motor *melted*, 35a controller - i broke by trying to mod it 2nd controller - blew it up.
My Ride

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Post by tartosuc » Nov 29 2007 11:03am

thanks for the tips bigH

what about packs like Dewalt 33 volt lithium tool battery? are theses good? they seems to be at good price but i can't seem to get the specs for them. i like the fact that they are already built into box...
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Post by vanilla ice » Nov 29 2007 12:48pm

I think Dewalts are on the expensive side. They have an internal fuse, 15a I think it was said, so you will need to run packs in parallel, maybe 2p or 3p depending on what you want to do. Its been suggested to install external fuses to prevent having to disassemble the packs when the internal blows. Sounds like a good idea.

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Post by Ypedal » Nov 29 2007 12:55pm

If you have the skill to work with the Dewalt packs, they are the latest and greatest, even if they do cost a bit more up front ..

They are abuse tolerant, light, and powerful !!!!
ES site status page:
http://www.ypedal.com/ES/ES.htm
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Post by Ted_Z » Nov 29 2007 1:12pm

Battery selection is going to be tricky if you are still thinking of using an Etek motor. The Etek can easily draw 400A+. Unless you have some agressive current limiting in your controller you run the risk of killing your batteries, especially if you are using lithium chemistry batteries. (If you limit current, you limit the performance of the etek, so what's the point of using such a big motor?) In my experience with Etek motors (in fighting robots) they are best paired with Hawker/Odyssey AMG type lead acid batteries or parallel packs of quality Nicads (GP or Sanyo). Both can take the high peak current demands of the Etek.

The Dewalt 123 cells are rated for 70A, but as stated above they are fused at 15A. Put together in parallel and series 2S2P they worked great for the low current high voltage requirements of the hub motors.

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Post by Ypedal » Nov 29 2007 1:15pm

Open them up and bypass the BMS.. Amps away !!!! zoom-zoom !
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vanilla ice   100 MW

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Post by vanilla ice » Nov 29 2007 1:53pm

Running the packs intact is tempting because its so clean and easy, but I guess that way you're losing the main benefit of using the a123 cells in the first place eh. High C.

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Post by tartosuc » Nov 29 2007 2:00pm

Ted_Z wrote:Battery selection is going to be tricky if you are still thinking of using an Etek motor. The Etek can easily draw 400A+. Unless you have some agressive current limiting in your controller you run the risk of killing your batteries, especially if you are using lithium chemistry batteries. (If you limit current, you limit the performance of the etek, so what's the point of using such a big motor?) In my experience with Etek motors (in fighting robots) they are best paired with Hawker/Odyssey AMG type lead acid batteries or parallel packs of quality Nicads (GP or Sanyo). Both can take the high peak current demands of the Etek.

The Dewalt 123 cells are rated for 70A, but as stated above they are fused at 15A. Put together in parallel and series 2S2P they worked great for the low current high voltage requirements of the hub motors.
no i will not be using an etek...i was just asking questions about thoses at first because i did not know anything about EV yet.

the more i look at it the more i think that i will go with a 408 hub motor. .. probably with dewalt batteries... i will buy the hub motor soon and buy the rest of the compnents during te winter to be ready for next summer.
Now i'm still undecide if I go front or rear hub motor. both configuartion are giving different technical problems on my bike setup... I also can go with 24" wheel for the back...
the more you pedal slower, the slower you ride faster!

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Re: new to e-bikes

Post by tartosuc » Dec 20 2007 9:51pm

Anyone ever build a sidecar for an Ebike?

I came across that http://bikerodnkustom4.homestead.com/sidecar.html

Image

the guy has build a sidecar that tilts with the bike!

I was thinking of using that kind of system to haul my batteries and electronics on my bike.
i found a used electric bike for cheap, i will buy it and retrofit the motor and batteries to my bike.
the more you pedal slower, the slower you ride faster!

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Re: new to e-bikes

Post by fechter » Dec 20 2007 11:00pm

That's an interesting idea. Cornering would suck, but if you piled enough lead in there it would hold you down. No need for a kickstand. If a hub motor was on the side car, it could be detachable and leave the bike pretty much stock.

What about braking?
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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