Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

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all74   100 mW

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Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by all74 » Feb 25 2010 7:32am

I have been watching lots of threads get taken over by this topic so I thought I would put my discussion points here instead of in another thread. Also the rest of the world can avoid getting swamped by Aussies moaning about the 200watt limit. :D

A couple of comments. If the laws do get changed to what has been rumoured/proposed (250Watt, pedal first, 25k speed limit) then clearly there would be no improvement for the average ebiker so maybee it would be more effective to lobby for the status quo rather than these ineffective changes. Arguments against these changes would be easier to mount (increased cost, safety, lack of evidence of risk) than trying to get the power limits raised. Personally I'd prefer the status quo than these changes.

Also if the rules are changed where does that leave those of us with existing non compliant bikes? Would we have to have modifications made or would we be legal because we predated the rule changes? Without compliance plates etc how could we prove when our bikes were built?

As for the RTA investing money into building a bike dyno.....i'm speechless...., almost, could be another Aussie first like the Hills Hoist and the Stump Jump plow...not.
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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by lesspedal » Feb 25 2010 7:50am

I fully agree with everything you say.
Don't know what else to say.
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all74   100 mW

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by all74 » Feb 25 2010 8:48am

I just hate the idea of some fat assed bureaucrat who's probably ridden an ebike around the RTA carpark making up a few new rules. Who can we write to? It seems that ebike users are not at all involved in this review. A few politely worded emails to state and federal pollies might be more effective now rather than after the rules are changed.

There are a fair few Aussies on this forum could we get something co-ordinated?
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johnrobholmes   1.21 GW

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by johnrobholmes » Feb 25 2010 8:56am

What similar laws are out there? Can you have gas bikes under a certain CC without license/ registration?

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by lesspedal » Feb 25 2010 9:01am

This has been going on for a long time, but no one seems to do anything
http://www.pigswillfly.com.au/?p=1130#comment-65453
Maybe the powers that be thought they should look at ebike laws and then came up with the silly 250w thing.
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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by lesspedal » Feb 25 2010 9:06am

[quote="johnrobholmes"]What similar laws are out there? Can you have gas bikes under a certain CC without license/ registration?[/quote
Most state govs here are banning ice bikes/mopeds unless registered, and riders have motorcycle licence.
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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by johnrobholmes » Feb 25 2010 9:09am

Unfortunately, you guys are not likely to get a free pass on electric bikes then. Here in the states, many states can have 50cc and under bikes without registration, and some states don't require a drivers license. If you laws are already very strict for petrol, it is unlikely that electrics will be any different.

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by lesspedal » Feb 25 2010 9:22am

johnrobholmes wrote:Unfortunately, you guys are not likely to get a free pass on electric bikes then. Here in the states, many states can have 50cc and under bikes without registration, and some states don't require a drivers license. If you laws are already very strict for petrol, it is unlikely that electrics will be any different.
I tend to agree with you, this has to be the most regulated country in the world.
Another thing they are good at is, extracting your dollars, next will be a registration fee for ebikes
I use the elation chain drive as it makes the best use of the 200w law, I have tried a 200w geared hub and found it useless on the slightest grade.
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thewmatusmoloki   10 kW

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by thewmatusmoloki » Feb 25 2010 10:47am

These are the QLD rules in Oz at the mo.

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Ge ... _scooters/

"A motorised bicycle is a bicycle to which an electric motor is attached. The motor must not be capable of generating more than 200 watts of power. It is illegal to ride a bicycle on roads or road-related areas (such as paths) if the bicycle has an internal combustion engine (for example, a petrol or diesel motor) attached or an electric motor which is capable of generating more than 200 watts.

Motorised bicycles are required to adhere to the same road rules as bicycles and have the same rights and responsibilities. Motorised bicycles are exempt from registration and compulsory third party insurance.

A two-wheeled vehicle with an internal combustion engine, or an electric motor capable of generating over 200 watts, must comply with the Australian Design Rules* requirements for a motorbike if it is to be ridden on roads or road-related areas. "


However , all the cops I've spoken to don't seem to know anything about these rule's. But that could change pretty fast I suppose.

cheers
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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by all74 » Feb 25 2010 10:04pm

For low powered electric bicycles these changes would be a solution without a problem.

I'm sure the real problem that is trying to be tackled, is that it is difficult for authorities to catch, fine and confiscate the more extreme powered bicycle uses with the current regulations, short of towing around a mobile dyno (oh I hope I haven't given them ideas...).

So what do they do? They clarify the rules with the pedal first thing and speed limit which without some pretty clever engineering would rule out all the 2 stroke petrol engine riders, and the unridable scooter style bikes in one fell swoop, much easier for police to pull people over and check for this type of compliance. And no costly and annoying court challenges.

But you know how it would go, once the police have a heads up about powered bikes we would all get picked up sooner or later. And I recon because this is not a compliance plate/design rule issue the rule would just be retrospective, with no quarter given for those who have existing bikes.

Personally I don't want get 50watts and lose the flexibility and safety of a hand throttle and reasonable top speed. From the discussion paper I've read we haven't got buckleys of getting significant increased power.

Maybe we need to suggest a viable alternative method for policing the 2 stroke and overpowered types (Yes I know there are lots of over powered riders here , but you already know you naughty boys, without me or the police telling you :D).

What about putting it back to the importers and retailers, with some kind of code of conduct or compliance.
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johnrobholmes   1.21 GW

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by johnrobholmes » Feb 26 2010 12:42am

or what about some stealth 20mph switches :lol: You would have to get good at pretending to huff and puff your way around.

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by Hardcarve1 » Feb 26 2010 6:51am

Our govenment on all side are just so backwards in teir thinking about our use of energy. Of all the counties in the world Australia has the best chance to be use alternative energy sources, we could use solar, wind & tide with our vast country and small population every other country would kill for.
As for our transportation and the use of bikes in and around cities its a no brainer, that with our large spread out cities and hot climate a pedal only bike will never take off as it has in the colder European climates. To base our bicycle system on this 200w or 250w limit can only be because of leagal or tax reasons and will never change.
I gave up my gas powered rides that were so practical for me to use because of the law, but I will not ever give into this stupid under powered law. I will choose to ride a electric bike that is safe and able to power me to a practical speed and if they want to throw the book at me so be it. I will always ride safe and not draw attention to myself.
They can all go to you know where, sometimes the people just have to say no to laws that stupid. :twisted:
I feel better sharing my pain. :P
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AussieJester   100 GW

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by AussieJester » Feb 26 2010 7:03am

I attempted to get some positive action on Moterbikes.com 6 months or so ago with an Aussie Thread, i suggested a petition and standardised letter that members could print out sign and post of to their local parliament member, resulted in next to no interest members feeling small numbers wouldnt do any good and it was more trouble than it was worth.... This is on a forum with more members riding TOTALLY illegal 49cc ICE bikes...I have seen this many times on forums, lot of noise made heap of great suggestions and zero of it followed through. I agree with some of this, what ever we do ain't going to make didly squat difference, what is there here? 20 maybe 30 Australin members? ...

I feel for you guys living in states and areas where there is a high police presence ...All we can hope for IMHO is the Government uses common sense.....bwahaha yeah like thats gunna happen...

KiM

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by Hardcarve1 » Feb 26 2010 7:15am

Maybe we need to have a high profile person who is a champion of the alternative energy debate be our voice. ES as a whole could patition a person like Al Gore who has a massive presence in this debate to put the cause forward. Or do we try and get science on our side and get some research done to push our electric bike solution. Sounds stupid by remember that little bank that had jerry Seingfield do the commercial.
I feel so strong about this subject and how using powered bikes is our start to changing how we use energy.
When in doubt, REV!! it out.

MTB commuter Black Surley troll 26' 9C HUB Vented & upgraded phase wires, 16s A123 11.5ah
MTB commuter Orange Surley troll 26' 9C HUB Vented & upgraded phase wires, 16s A123 9.2ah
MTB - HXT80-130 direct drive through staton 1:18.75 gerbox, HV160 ecs, Nuvinci hub, 12s A123 9.2ah (retired)
MTB - 9C stock, 12 fet Lyen, 9 speed, 16s A123 20.0ah, 2000lm LED ebike lights.[retired]

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by oldhaq » Feb 26 2010 9:33am

Convoy!
Of course we wouldn't get anything like the numbers they did in the 70's trucker movie or 80's Aust CB lobby/protest. http://acbro.org/rallyof1980.htm
I can't see anything on those scales happening with our numbers, but extraordinary measures would be needed to make any difference to what seems will be the expected outcomes if nothing is done.
I'm ok the way things are, not many people have any idea of what most of us are running, and when I'm asked I try not to be too informative about the specs, as I'm trying to preserve the status quo for myself for as long as possible. That time is closing as word is getting around and riders with fast machines get noticed more.
I wonder if some federal laws could be made here, like the US? That could be a new angle of attacking the problem, go over the states heads.
:idea:Could be a new job for Peter Garret :lol:
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AussieJester   100 GW

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by AussieJester » Feb 26 2010 6:11pm

oldhaq wrote: :idea:Could be a new job for Peter Garret :lol:
I think itz safe to say "Mr Sheen" isn't getting blown at home so Garret is 'taking up the slack' can't see any other reason the guy has been able to keep his job...well..maybe "Mr Sheen" is a fan of MidNight Oil? naaaagh... :mrgreen:

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by Geebee » Feb 27 2010 6:11am

The limit is a joke anyway I just dyno'ed (fancy trainer) my new build and it showed a 160w rated hub (still has the factory sticker) after the trikes drive train (bb drive) at 260w and it was running a touch below the rated voltage, it will run all day at max output, I have done some terrible things to this poor little hub in the past. :)
Going of the input to output it will exceed 300w with a healthy battery, the rules are meant to be maximum at motor shaft of 200w, I bet none of the 200w motors, hubs, kits would actually comply when dyno'ed.

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by AussieJester » Feb 27 2010 6:37am

Geebee wrote: the rules are meant to be maximum at motor shaft of 200w, I bet none of the 200w motors, hubs, kits would actually comply when dyno'ed.
I know one past (banned) member that would argue black and blue (and has done with me) that the output is taken at the rear wheel not the motor shaft...There is even an Aussie mob selling i think 25cc ICE motors that mount on the side of the bike/wheel and they also state that the output is measured at the rear wheel. They use electric hub motors as their arguement stating they have no crankshaft and thus their output is measured at the wheel :-S I'll see if i can dig up the link to the company will post t when/if i find it.. I have never heard of a motors output being measured at the rear wheels..ever....only the crankshaft. Out of curiosity when i was riding my bike last week, i kept an eye on the Turnigy Meter and go it it steady ~190-200watt i found it very difficult to balance at such a low speed LoL and this at the motors crank shaft would be well over 200watt as i run reduction drive so there would be some losses involved etc.

KiM

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Geebee   1 kW

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by Geebee » Feb 27 2010 7:05am

I just have this sneaking suspicion that your motor may not be optimised for the 200w range. :lol:
The trainer says I should get 35 kph on the flat with zero input from me.
I actualy discussed the power rating with the DOT technicians a few years ago and they were definate on the "maximum at the motor shaft" rating.

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by AussieJester » Feb 27 2010 7:14am

Geebee wrote:I just have this sneaking suspicion that your motor may not be optimised for the 200w range. :lol:
haha ya think.... I'll be telling Mr PoliceMan when/if asked its capable of 200watt! he doesn't need to know its also capable of near 6000watt does he? :mrgreen:

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 27 2010 7:55am

I'm curious, anybody hear what it takes to register an electric moped in Aus?

Politicians think in an odd manner, and many of them may realize 500W-1,000W would be popular, so perhaps the power limit is because they are hoping to get most E-bikers to pay for license and registration?

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by spike » Feb 27 2010 9:11am

spinningmagnets wrote:I'm curious, anybody hear what it takes to register an electric moped in Aus?

Politicians think in an odd manner, and many of them may realize 500W-1,000W would be popular, so perhaps the power limit is because they are hoping to get most E-bikers to pay for license and registration?
I tried to register my e-bike as a moped in WA a couple of years ago. I was told it wasn't possible under any circumstances. They weren't interested in the registration fee at all. I just hide the motor and batteries under panniers, but I would prefer to pay the registration fee if I could.

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by Geebee » Feb 27 2010 4:23pm

Depends on the state as well, in Tasmaia it has to meet the same requirements as a Motorbike that includes an engineers certificate for the frame, full DOT compliance on everything, proven or prove braking ability etc. and you must hold a Motorbike license.

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by AussieJester » Feb 27 2010 6:28pm

Theres a member with a trike in Tasmania 'Carvin' Marvin" who is trying to or has? registered his e-trike with the Mr Policeman I believe he is hoping to get it used by the postal service...has dual x5 frock motors on the rear and it tilts! Not many pics of it left online if any he has pulled them all
till he has the patent on it i thinkz.

KiM

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Re: Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Post by all74 » Feb 28 2010 7:06pm

I'm not going to touch the whole what really is 200W can of worms, I'll leave that to engineers and court cases.

I imagine registering an Ebike is just like registering a kit built car or custom made motor bike and would require "blue slip" type engineer inspections etc. to get it registered as an LA or LC class motorbike. AFAIK there is no other registrable class of bike in any state in Australia.

I guess I was hoping in this thread we might come up with some alternatives we could present to the relevant authorities. So ..

-some way for police to instantly test compliance other than pedal first and 25k speed limit.
-some way to demonstrate or convince authorities that 200w motors are not "primary" drives. (It seems the whole pedal first thing is aimed at complying with the language in the regulation)
-some sensible reasons why a 25k limit is not necessary or why a higher limit might be better.

ideas?
Mark
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