Puma motor, easy question

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Herrsprocket   100 W

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Puma motor, easy question

Post by Herrsprocket » Aug 23 2007 12:38am

Howdy,

I'm really interested in the Puma motor, from all the reports folks have given on it, seems like quite a little hummer. I'm a bit uncertain of a couple of things though, and was hoping someone could straighten me out.

About a year ago or so, I was looking at the BMC brushless motor, thinking that it was a pretty cool motor for what I wanted to do, and then the gang began to do a lot of reporting on it that gave the impression this motor was the real deal. I didn't follow the threads for awhile, but now I see folks are talking about the "Puma" motor,,, is this the same motor, just has a different name now? Or did BMC come up with a new and improved version of the original BMC motor?

The original , as I recall, was listed as a 36 volt, 400 watt motor, when using the 15 - 20 amp controller that came with it. The guys at EV Tech were touting it to be a 540 watt motor ( 48 v at 15 amps @ 75% efficiency = 540 watts). So is this the same motor or is the Puma a whole new breed?

Thanks guys,

Tom

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Jozzer   100 kW

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Post by Jozzer » Aug 23 2007 7:23am

A little bit of both. They have been working on it, and it has been named allsorts. Call Mark @ http://www.teamhybrid.co.uk/pages/cryst ... evtech.htm for more info, he knows all.
Whatever it's called, the motors are great. Light and powerfull, lots of pulling power from low revs. It can be used easily to 48v, with a better controller higher, and many run it with a 35A controller.
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
Aprilia RS125, Agni motor, 600A 96v Kelly controller, 6kw/h pack
Dual Agni Ducati.
Countless ebikes and trikes..
http://www.Jozztek.com

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BiGH   100 kW

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Post by BiGH » Aug 23 2007 7:41am

They are possibly two differnet things i ithink you might be thinking of a BMC motor similar to the curry motor - runs a chain connected to the rear wheel?

the BMC puma we are all talking about is a hub motor - sits inside the hub of the wheel :)
Bike / Motor: Electric specalized rock hopper with Crystalyte 504 / 26"
Batt: Yesa 72v (36v*2) (getting 6.7ah) LiFEPO4 in a Topeak bag. OR 1x eMTB 48v 20ah pack (straps to frame) -depending on range requirements.
Controller: Unmodified 48a digital with 4110 Fets
Current Prob: Bike is in parts getting painted / drying / testing replacement BMS
Trail of Dead Parts:Avanti Frame, 408 motor *melted*, 35a controller - i broke by trying to mod it 2nd controller - blew it up.
My Ride

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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Aug 23 2007 10:04am

The question is not as easy as it should be. There's been many updates and iterations of the BMC/Puma hubmotor. Many require internal modification to operate safely at more than 20 amps. When used with a crystalyte controller, all require careful testing and matching of non-color coded wires. There's a build thread and discussion of such modification here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... light=puma
Maytag wrote:I can only speak for the current crop of rear BMC's coming out of EVTech in the US, I believe the same motors that Team Hybrid is selling have already been modded by Team Hybrid to relieve the so called problem. It's only a problem for modders like myself running them at higher voltages than its rated 36v 540W. Run it at its advertised 36v and it runs like a champ and outperforms most non-geared hub motors at the same voltage so EVTech cant be blamed for my madness (I want to run it at 52v, then maybe 60v, 72v?). Once I first inspected my new motor it was clearly apparent what could possibly be holding it back, the hi-current phase wires are only 18ga (see comparison pic next to an X5's phase wires). I knew I'd have to beef up these wires if I want to run this motor at higher voltages but before I can get started I 1st needed to make sure I was sent a working unit. Well I quickly found out that this motor is not a straight plug-in match with the Crystalyte controllers. Thanks to the help provided by Knoxie and Mark at Team Hybrid I was able to get it running correctly. Now that I was comfortable knowing the motor does work, I can go ahead and rip apart my brand new $500 motor (what the heck its only money, right?) I never hesitate to tare into something if I truely feel I can make it better. So here are some pics of the mod, I replaced the 18ga phase wires with 16ga and used a 6-wire shielded cable for the hall sensors. All the wires feed through a bored out axle, not much space for running anything larger othewise I would have. This motor's build quality is nothing close to the BMC front hub motor in Knoxie's test video.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

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DeeL2003   1 W

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Post by DeeL2003 » Aug 23 2007 11:55am

I also plan to get a BMC/Puma motor and run it @ 48v w/ a CLyte 36-72 35a controller. I'm getting confused with all the changes/ mods done to it thus far. Will I be able to safely run the motor with my voltage and controller setup? Does EVTech sell the same "improved" motor that Team Hybrid sells? If not, does Team Hybrid ship to the US?

I'm kinda changing the way I wanna use the ebike. I don't want full top speed performance, so no more X5 for me. I want something with the hill climbing torque and lighter weight design of the Puma, as I will be doing most of the pedaling. I need to get in shape but need the motor to tackle hills or cruise @ 20+mph when I get tired :P

If the Puma can't handle 48v and more than 30+A, I guess the Cannon is my next option?

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deecanio   10 MW

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Post by deecanio » Aug 23 2007 5:01pm

deel,
i have a puma - bought from mark at teamhybrid and its a great motor, i think mine is the same version as maytags - the mods are phase change (if used with xlyte controller) and thicker phase wires internally.
i have to say that one of these will suit you down to the ground :D
i have only run mine at 36v due to a lipo series issue but even at that voltage it pulls like a champ - i run a 35a xlyte controller and just at 36v35a it really did impress me and i like off road uphill!!
i dont think you will have any problems at all with 48v and it's a sensible voltage - i get 18mph on the flat at 36v in a 20" so 48 would be impressive especially if you run a 26".
the performance your after comes with the puma at only 8-10 lbs weight.


cheers

D

Herrsprocket   100 W

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Post by Herrsprocket » Aug 23 2007 6:32pm

Hey fellers,

Some good learn'n going on here for me, much kudos to all. Yep, I did mean the BMC hub motor, sorry about not making that distinction.

Thanks Xyster for the link to the almost overwhelming thread you listed. Wow, 17 pages on that thread! But good stuff. And as deecanio affirmed, the trick in the motor is to beef up the phase leads coming out of the motor and then make sure the leads are also in sync with an Xlyte controller ( which I think I will use).

But still not quite sure of something, are the motors coming straight out of BMC now have the new and improved juicier wiring for higher amps or is it still a matter of getting or doing the mods?

Tom

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DeeL2003   1 W

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Post by DeeL2003 » Aug 23 2007 6:34pm

deecanio wrote:deel,
i have a puma - bought from mark at teamhybrid and its a great motor, i think mine is the same version as maytags - the mods are phase change (if used with xlyte controller) and thicker phase wires internally.
i have to say that one of these will suit you down to the ground :D
i have only run mine at 36v due to a lipo series issue but even at that voltage it pulls like a champ - i run a 35a xlyte controller and just at 36v35a it really did impress me and i like off road uphill!!
i dont think you will have any problems at all with 48v and it's a sensible voltage - i get 18mph on the flat at 36v in a 20" so 48 would be impressive especially if you run a 26".
the performance your after comes with the puma at only 8-10 lbs weight.


cheers

D

Thanks for the info. Does the EVTech BMC kit have the phase wires that are compatible with the CLyte controller or will I have to use one of his controllers on his website? I don't think I can do the mod myself and would prefer to use the CLyte controller I already have.

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Jozzer   100 kW

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Post by Jozzer » Aug 23 2007 9:33pm

All you have to do is connect the controller wires to the motor in a different order, we can tell you how, you'll just need to put on connectors to join 2 wires together. Best to change out the wires completly, but it will manage 35A if you just cut the wires as short as possible and connect thicker wire from here (if you dont want to open the motor). All quite straightforward. The next batch of motors will be upgraded I'm sure.
Mark (teamhybrid) will ( I think he said once) do the mod there for you for a small fee if your really cant manage.
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
Aprilia RS125, Agni motor, 600A 96v Kelly controller, 6kw/h pack
Dual Agni Ducati.
Countless ebikes and trikes..
http://www.Jozztek.com

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DeeL2003   1 W

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Post by DeeL2003 » Aug 23 2007 11:21pm

Jozzer wrote:All you have to do is connect the controller wires to the motor in a different order, we can tell you how, you'll just need to put on connectors to join 2 wires together. Best to change out the wires completly, but it will manage 35A if you just cut the wires as short as possible and connect thicker wire from here (if you dont want to open the motor). All quite straightforward. The next batch of motors will be upgraded I'm sure.
Mark (teamhybrid) will ( I think he said once) do the mod there for you for a small fee if your really cant manage.
Yeah not too good with soldering and adding connectors. If Mark can do them for me that would be great. But will he ship to the US?

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deecanio   10 MW

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Post by deecanio » Aug 24 2007 5:03am

I would certainly give him a call Deel, he is a nice guy and he did mod my motor and controller for me so i dont see why he wouldn' do it for you?
I'm fairly sure he will ship as long as you cover the cost - ring/mail him and find out - he's a genuine guy and im sure he will help you out.


Cheers


D

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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » Aug 24 2007 8:54am

Jozzer wrote:All you have to do is connect the controller wires to the motor in a different order, we can tell you how,
Can you post a diagram of that? or at least a text description of which wire goes where? I'd like to add it to the Crystalyte controller thread for reference.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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nemo   10 W

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Post by nemo » Sep 02 2007 7:47am

Does anybody know if the puma has rare earth magnets? Rated for what temperature? From the picture( somewhere in the forums) I saw 32 rare earth magnets and 36 coils. Quite a setup!!!!!!
No wonder they are expensive.
Somebody also replaced hall sensor wires for shieded ones. Maybe it would be possible to leave original gauge wires and replace only hall wires with shielded thinner ones and outside of the hub continue with thicker wires if they are needed. The idea is to have power wires as thick as possible.

Thank You !

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Jozzer   100 kW

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Post by Jozzer » Sep 02 2007 8:12am

Colour coding goes,
Puma Motor. X'lyte controller.
Yellow Blue
Green Yellow
Blue Green

Halls wires all the same (though if you get one with a connector on it you'll find the colours are all arranged in the wrong order)

For rewiring (which is needed), see Maytags thread on his Puma. Cutting wires short (just outside the motor) will do, but obviously rewiring into the motor is better.
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
Aprilia RS125, Agni motor, 600A 96v Kelly controller, 6kw/h pack
Dual Agni Ducati.
Countless ebikes and trikes..
http://www.Jozztek.com

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The7   10 kW

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Post by The7 » Sep 02 2007 8:57am

Jozzer wrote:Colour coding goes,
Puma Motor. X'lyte controller.
Yellow Blue
Green Yellow
Blue Green

Halls wires all the same (though if you get one with a connector on it you'll find the colours are all arranged in the wrong order)

For rewiring (which is needed), see Maytags thread on his Puma. Cutting wires short (just outside the motor) will do, but obviously rewiring into the motor is better.
I am confused about the Hall wires connection.

For Hall wires, do you mean:
Puma Hall wire -- X'lyte Hall wire
Yellow -- Blue
Green -- Yellow
Blue -- Green

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Jozzer   100 kW

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Post by Jozzer » Sep 02 2007 9:33am

No....those are the motor phase wires, as I said, halls colours all match the x'lyte colour codes.
SO, the chart is for PHASE WIRES not halls wires (just to be clear).
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
Aprilia RS125, Agni motor, 600A 96v Kelly controller, 6kw/h pack
Dual Agni Ducati.
Countless ebikes and trikes..
http://www.Jozztek.com

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The7   10 kW

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Post by The7 » Sep 02 2007 11:22pm

Jozzer wrote:No....those are the motor phase wires, as I said, halls colours all match the x'lyte colour codes.
SO, the chart is for PHASE WIRES not halls wires (just to be clear).
Thanks for the clarification.

The Connection between Puma motor and Xlyte controller are:

Puma Motor Winding --. X'lyte output.
Yellow -- Blue
Green -- Yellow
Blue --- Green


Puma Motor Hall wire --. X'lyte Hall wire.
Yellow -- Yellow
Green -- Green
Blue --- Blue
Red --- Red
Black -- Black

Now is this the correct ?

If so, what is the battery current for no-load top-speed at 48V battery?

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The7   10 kW

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Post by The7 » Sep 02 2007 11:56pm

Jozzer wrote:No....those are the motor phase wires, as I said, halls colours all match the x'lyte colour codes.
SO, the chart is for PHASE WIRES not halls wires (just to be clear).
How did you get this "correct" connection between Puma and Xlytr?
By trial and error? or else?

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