Ae-line 1st build

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by MadRhino » Dec 02 2010 6:14pm

docnjoj wrote:Yep folks! Gears make noize! I love the unsprung weight but my 9C is QUIET compared to my old Bafang at 54 volts. Just the way it is although I would love to hear a quiet gear motor. I would buy it in a heartbeat!
otherDoc
Yeah! Silence rules 8)

I would buy right now at a big price, a brushless hub motor that would be built around a NuVinci hub. That would be a perfect combination of silence, speed and torque at will.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

User avatar
Ariane   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 644
Joined: Jan 30 2010 9:17pm
Location: Val-d'Or QC

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by Ariane » Dec 02 2010 7:21pm

Hi Guys,

I'm pretty sure that a geared hub is more quiet than my Agni 95 R with chain and gears :D and too much quiet is some times really boring like i have experiment with the X5304.

Good day!
Black Arrow

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by MadRhino » Dec 02 2010 9:20pm

I would not bother the noise, if I'd be riding in the mountain alone. In town, I want to avoid too much attention. My ride is not legal and the police might very well get me out of the road.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13817
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by John in CR » Dec 02 2010 10:26pm

MadRhino,

Do you realize that increasing the current will increase torque? eg Going to 80A will give your X5304 60% more torque, and guys have run them at much higher currents. In fact, assuming the same % copper fill, which I think the 5304 and 5306 may be identical, means both motors are capable of identical max torque. The 5304 will need more current, but it's thicker windings can handle the higher current. The only time the 5306 would be more advantageous if you want to climb the same steep hills at a lower speed, but you will sacrifice top speed.

Using the simulator to compare two different winds of the same motor at a fixed current limit doesn't really give you a good picture of the difference in performance. As some are finding out there is something really special about the performance of high speed wind motors when you feed them enough current. DoctorBass went so far as to make his motor an X5303 or X5306 at the flip of a switch with quite an investment in time, but he quickly found out that the 5306 mode was useless for him. For a heavy guy like me living in a mountainous country, a 5306 could prove useful to avoid melting motors or controllers going up long steep hills, but otherwise they're only useful for generally riding at lower speeds or towing heavy loads at low speeds. DocBass pulled a full size bus with his 5304, and he also towed Justin's heavily laden bike up a steep hill during his cross Canada trek, so what more could you want?

John

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by MadRhino » Dec 03 2010 12:17am

Thanks John,

It is especially for rough climbing at low speed, that the 5304 does not suit my needs. Of course I want speed and the 5304 is great for that matter, and it climbs not so bad when I can attack the hill at higher speed. The problem is that it loses efficiency and heats alot when the trail gets rough and I have to trick climb much slower.

My guess, is that I can find a compromise, running the 5306 at higher voltage, and if I have to feed it more amps it will take it without so much heating. If I can keep the speed that I do now, and get more climbing power and efficiency at lower speed, It might do it for my needs in the mountain where I ride most of the time. I want to avoid drilling cooling holes in a hub that I often ride in the mud.

That is why I will eventually end up with 2 different bikes for the street and the mountain. A steep hill can always be attacked faster on the street, therefore my 5304 with the 18 4110 will do nice with some minor upgrade to make it 100v and 80 or 100A. On the other side, my 18 4115 will make it possible to feed more juice to the 5306, to compensate for its lack of speed.

Building a 2nd bike, with a different aproach from the first, will let me figure out where I'll want to go for the 3rd. :idea: I might want to go for a crank drive in the mountain, I don't know yet how long those hubs will stand jumping and rough driving in the dirt.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13817
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by John in CR » Dec 03 2010 2:24am

Higher voltage and a x5306 won't do it unless you did some kind of series parallel switching. At the same voltage, then yes the 5306 will handle a hill at a slower speed, but at high voltage you end up kinda back where you started because you'll have to go at partial throttle, and the partial duty cycle pushes the phase currents up. It may relieve some motor stress, but I think it's a big maybe, since partial throttle which emulates lower voltage didn't help your 5304 up the hills going slower. Controller stress will definitely be an issue at partial throttle up long steep hills.

To switch the pack to a lower voltage for the steep slow climbs is possible with contactors. You may also need a switch on the controller to handle the 2 voltages.

For us hub motor guys, hills and high top speed are a difficult issue. My solution has been to throw enough current at it so I fly up the hills too. As long as I can maintain at least 30mph, then my motor and controller are happy. On hills greater than 10%, then I have to really keep an eye on my speed and not do any long durations at under 20mph or I put my motor and controller at risk. That's for street riding. For trail riding my solution will be a hub motor out of the wheel and geared to a lower top speed, probably something like 35mph instead of the 60 I have now. If that doesn't work out then I have to go to a multi-speed gearbox.

John

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by MadRhino » Dec 03 2010 7:10am

If I understand well, what you are saying is that feeding more voltage to a 5306 will make it less efficient at lower speed. Then, to be able to ride it slow and keep it from overheating, I would have to give up on top speed. Your solution is interesting then, building a dual voltage setup might do it.

A transmission setup may be the only way to achieve truly efficient speed and torque with the same motor. Or else, I end up with two different bikes for the mountain and the street, as I previously figured. Another solution could be to make a 2 motor setup: One hub for speed and silence, and one crank drive for torque in the mountain where noize is not so much a turn off. This would add some weight, but make it possible for the same bike to serve both purpose.

Changing subject: I've seen some small scooters with rear hub motor, that have the battery inside the front hub. They are low power setups, but I found this is a very good idea, and plan to build a custom lipo assembly from individual cells, inside an empty hub motor casing. Someone knows the inside capacity of various hub motors? Also, the availability of empty hub casings might be usefull, maybe a good way to recycle cooked hub motors too. That will limit to a minimum, the istallations on the bike itself, while lowering the CEG as much as one can imagine.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13817
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by John in CR » Dec 03 2010 12:44pm

I'm unclear about exactly what happens with the motor, though I believe there will be some efficiency gain at the lower speeds with the slow wind motor. Partial throttle on a steep hill is dangerous for a controller due to phase current multiplication during current limiting, and the 4115 FETs in the high voltage controller will be less able to handle that heat than your other controller. The greater BEMF of the higher turn count 5306 may make it an easy enough load for the controller that your solution will meet your needs, but I think going from a 5304 to a 5306 and increasing voltage by 50% puts you back to the same motor performance curves. Lowering the voltage will move the peak performance in terms of power and efficiency to lower speeds, which I think is what you're after.

Once I tuned a high performance controller to handle my usual hills I bought myself some leeway, and I have enough speed to handle getting on the highway and enough torque to charge up 10% hills. Setting the current limits higher gets the motor and controller a bit too hot for my tastes, and setting the current limits lower prevent me from getting to the efficient speed on the same hills and again the both get hot. I'm running high enough power though that partial throttle up a steep still puts my controller at risk,

My road needs are going to require a second motor or a gearbox if I really want to go on mountain rides worry free. I'll probably accept the weight penalty and just go with another high power hubbie on the front, and then I'll own hills with a 15% or greater grade. An option that might work for you is a geared hub as a second motor to help with climbs, since it freewheels the rest of the time. They can't go to high voltage though, and for my main bike it won't work because I run at 74V nominal and will soon go to 88V nominal.

You should talk to ZapPat. He runs dual 9C's as his off road rig and loves it, and he has enough regen braking torque that he doesn't even use mechanical brakes. That would give you about the same weight as an X5, better weight distribution, higher performance, and double the surface area for better cooling of both the motors and controllers. Maybe there's been enough improvement in geared hubs for a dual geared hub bike to be a reliable solution for you, but I don't have direct experience to know. I like my silence, have a lot of DD hub motors, and don't mind the weight, so I'm sticking with direct drives for now. Plus I love the strong pull of a high speed wind motor that's fed plenty of amps all the way up to typical cruising speed, and above that I still have good acceleration and speed headroom for passing.

Regarding a hubbie shell as your battery box, I've got a scooter motor that is cavernous inside. The problem would be all that weight, especially in the steel backing ring for the magnets. A better option might be to find a source for motor covers for one of those newer large diameter hubbies like a Magic Pie. Then fabricate a much wider spoke flange to create a large internal space for batteries. I've always worried about vibration, so I'd rather build a frame specifically to enclose batteries, which would also avoid the unsprung weight issue.

John

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by MadRhino » Dec 04 2010 1:37am

I will try to run the 5304 with a 24 4110 controller on the Ae-Line at 100v 100A. Maybe I will find it a good combination of speed and torque. The Specialized will have the 5306 with the 18 4115, to try and see how it behaves.

For today, I'm back to the mechanic, cause my torque arm and dropouts started stripping. I was quite optimistic, for it stood alot of beating until now. I think that a bad landing this morning, gave it too big of a shock (landed sideways on a short 4ft jump and luckily recovered with a few wobbles). I have to do stronger, and likely on both sides.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13817
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by John in CR » Dec 04 2010 4:19am

I'd strongly suggest clamping type torque arms once you step up to 100A on that 5304. I think you're going to go "wow, why didn't I do this before?" That's getting up toward performance that cars can't out accelerate or out climb you. :mrgreen:

As you go to higher performance is where you really have to watch the partial throttle situations up long hills, so feel your motor and controller for heat often at first until you get a feel for the stress limits and dial in the current limits. Dialing back down from 110A to 90A with my 24fet controller made a big difference in temp, though my motors are harder to drive. It changed from an often hot controller to only warm at most. My point isn't about the numbers, but instead that relatively small changes can make a difference, so if you have heat issues then finding the thresholds is important. Now that I'm dialed in, my only worry is getting stuck behind slow traffic up a long steep hill with oncoming traffic preventing a pass.

Also feel your wiring and connectors immediately after high demand use. 12ga wire starts getting hot and weak connections rear their ugly head at those levels. To give you an idea, you'll be looking at over 200A phase currents with a 100A battery current limit.

No doubt, both of your bikes are going to be monsters, and I look forward to hearing a head to head comparison of real world results of a 5304 at 100V and plenty of amps verses a 5306 at higher voltage.

John

Clinkz   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Apr 26 2011 10:41pm

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by Clinkz » Apr 27 2011 12:35pm

Hey Madrino How's your bike right now ? i'm curious I've just read the whole tread :)

I live in Montreal and i'm a Designer too. I'm starting my first build on an Old Norco VPS3.

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5961
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Ae-line 1st build

Post by MadRhino » Apr 27 2011 4:40pm

It's very good and reliable now. I've explored the limits of the 5304 this winter, until I busted one climbing near 15000W. Now I run it no more than 3000w continuous with peaks a tad above 5000w. It is very happy with the actual settings and I'm likely to ride it like that for the summer, before flirting again with high power. I'm building performance with 2 other bikes right now, so I can keep conservative with the AE-Line as a daily reliable ride (that is still very fast).

We should meet, since you are in Montreal. I ride the mountain everyday, and have lunch around Carre Saint-Louis every afternoon. PM me.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

Post Reply