The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

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Re: Bonanza Dual PhaseRunner AWD eMTB (Direct/Geared 9C/BMC

Post by Alan B » Aug 31, 2016 4:52 pm

amberwolf wrote:Back when my CA v3 still worked, I had planned to carry an old laptop in my CrazyBike2's metal side cargo pod, padded with chilled (but not frozen) gelpacks to both keep ti from vibration/bumps and absorb it's heat, but I didn't get that far before various events got in the way.

I was also going to test out an old serial-port-type PDA and see if that would also work, but I hadn't found a datalogging app at the time.

Nowadays I would probably see about using an old android tablet or phone for it, if serial input devices for USB on PC's could be adapted to them, and datalogging apps exist. At least no risk to harddisk crash from impact or vibration in those. (though one can also use a USB stick to run a laptop from, and remove it's harddisk--might end up more practical as I have a few very old laptops that might work that way).


For the trike's wheels, I actually use the separate throttles to steer it in turns a fair bit, but it would be nice to just be able to use a single throttle to control both wheels under most cruising, and override it only in sharp turns.


Thanks to Justin's generosity some time back, I've got one of the original 500w ASI controllers (in the silver angular metal package), from Justin's bike on the Maker Faire trip, that I have experimented with a bit but so far haven't gotten it actually running any motors (lack of time mostly). I intend to try it eventually (someday) just to see how it works on the trike vs the regular controllers.

But a pair of PRs or the bigger BACs is well out of any budget for the foreseeable future. Still dreaming on that one, along with a lot of other things. :)
I have one of the BAC500+ units, nice flat form factor is perfect for my flat BikeE frame, if it will work for the BMC on that bike. Another delayed project. I retired a year ago, have been able to get a few projects moved along, quite a few more to go.

This 2WD is one of these interrupted projects, started planning a long time ago, bought the BMC over a year ago, just getting it going now. But it is much nicer with PhaseRunners than dual Xie Chen controllers, I don't know where I'd fit two of those, these PhaseRunners are so much smaller and easier to pack in.

I'll try the GoPro to start with, it would be nice to have digital recording but handling dual serial streams would be a project itself so I won't get that complicated if I don't need to. Perhaps I'll want to do that, but I'd really just like to get the controllers configured. Later I would like to build an Arduino based display that would look at both PhaseRunners, sort of a dual-CA in one, and if I'm going to do recording that would be the place to do it, then one datastream will be available with both sets of info.

There are inexpensive little boards from Sparkfun and perhaps Adafruit that will record serial streams on to SD cards, no need to carry a laptop or buy a more costly box. Lots of ways to do it.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by Alan B » Sep 01, 2016 8:32 am

Since I removed the front suspension fork and went to a solid steel Surly unit to handle the BMC's torque the ride has stiffened a bit, and the extra traction and power makes me think of a Bulldozer - rides a bit rough but with AWD traction goes just about wherever you point it.

So I think I will call this the "Bonanza Bulldozer" 2WD eMTB.

I don't plan to put a blade on it, but perhaps a magnet and a leaf blower to clean the bike lane would be fun. :)

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Ebike Thrust Chart

Post by Alan B » Sep 08, 2016 4:32 pm

I was doing some calculations for my various ebikes and looking at motor choices for the Bonanza to get a bit more efficiency and possibly a bit more thrust in the rear motor, perhaps one of the new cassette type models for better gear selections.

In the case of the Bonanza we are limited to about 50 amps of motor current due to the PhaseRunner. You can push up to 70 with a heatsink, and possibly 80 or even 96 amps temporarily, but to be conservative I've chosen 50 amps for this comparison. So if you are current limited then motors with more turns provide more torque. The existing 9C rear motor is a 10 turn motor, so it has low Kv and high thrust per amp. Most of the available motors do not have such high turns ratios because it drives the voltage requirement up. Here I have 72 volts and it only produces about 30 mph, not too many folks want such motors. To match the BMC and the 10 turn 9C I need motors with a Kv of 5 to 6. I don't see much in that area aside from the torque type geared motors.

Also computed is the thrust for the CroBorg and the RidgeRunner. The Bonanza actually exceeds both of those bikes in thrust (if I did the calculations right):

Image

Note that these are initial thrust values, the thrust will fall off starting at some speed, where the power limitation takes over. This is where the Borg shines, as it has the highest power available due to the no-BMS Lipo battery pack. The other bikes have 18650 packs with BMS's that cannot handle current levels above 50 amps continuous. The Borg's Multistars can handle 96 amps at 3C.

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Tuning the BMC PhaseRunner

Post by Alan B » Sep 09, 2016 12:46 am

Image

I readjusted the PhaseRunner parameters using the new software and did another test drive. I reduced the BMC thrust and power a bit and increased the recommended PLL loop bandwidth from 0.39 to 0.7, which appears to be successful since no trips were noted. With the slightly lower power settings on the 14% grade the speed dropped from 25 to 21. The front motor doesn't seem to be working as hard.

I received two Cycle Analysts to get more data so I can read out both motors at once. I have to modify them (remove speed sensors) and install them to get those readings.

Edit - modified and installed, photo added.
Last edited by Alan B on Sep 09, 2016 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BMC 4TT vs 3TT

Post by Alan B » Sep 09, 2016 3:00 pm

Not sure what the difference is between the BMC 4TT and the 3TT.

My invoice says 4TT but the motor label says 3TT.

Anybody know?

I received an email response back from ilia at ebikessf.com, a long time BMC dealer, and he said that 3TT and 4TT were the same. I don't believe he sells BMC these days, something changed. He still has parts, and he still has MAC geared motors as I recall.

Image
Last edited by Alan B on Sep 12, 2016 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by Alan B » Sep 11, 2016 6:19 pm

Test Ride meets Hill

A couple of us revisited the hill in Marin today, on exactly the day 6 years after the day I joined ES, the same dirt road that almost melted the 9C rear hubmotor a little over 5 years ago. Same bike, same hill, with a few changes:
  • changed from 66V to 72V
  • changed from 12 FET Lyen controller to 6 FET Ebikes.ca PhaseRunner controller
  • changed from Schwalbe Marathon to Schwalbe Smart Sam tires
  • added BMC 3TT front motor with PhaseRunner controller
  • changed from 40A? to 30 rear, 16 front
  • changed from Zokes suspension forks to Surly non-suspension forks
  • no beer in the panniers this trip
  • weather was cooler, overcast
What a difference. Where before it was a struggle to keep the bike moving and stay on the bike with the rough conditions and inadequate traction (with the rear wheel slipping when pedal strokes combined with motor power), and it was necessary to pedal and ultimately to keep the motor from melting (with all the heat from a nearly stalled motor situation), this time the struggle was to keep the front wheel from slipping under the BMC's torque, (and the rear 9C still slips when pedals are added to motor torque), but the motors and controller didn't get much above ambient as the velocity was well above stall speed (and there was no real need to pedal). It was not hard to get to 15 mph on the steep uphill where it was smooth enough. The lack of front/rear suspension was noticeable as speed increased, and it makes this more of a tractor than a racer.

Back on the pavement we did a few acceleration comparisons between the AWD Bonanza Bulldozer and a RWD Cromotored 26" Fat Tire machine, and the Bonanza slightly out-accelerated the Cromotor in those big wheels. Not by a huge margin, but by a consistent and noticeable amount. This with 72V 60A to the 24 FET Lyen driving the Cromotor and 72V 16/30A to the BMC/9C via a pair of 6 FET PhaseRunners.

The Bonanza Bulldozer works pretty much as expected, and these little dual PhaseRunners are smooth powerhouses when coupled with higher voltage "torque" motors to keep the current down. While not a "rocket" like Luke's "deathbike", this bike has lots of thrust and traction and will handle about as much gradient as the traction will allow, and it seems to be a bit faster on the steep stuff than the RidgeRunner, but with more available power that's also an expected result.

It would be nice to have a fast/easy way to adjust max torque "on the fly" for front and rear motors to suit the conditions. I'll have to work on that. :)
Last edited by Alan B on May 15, 2017 9:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: fixing some wording

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72V 20S Range Extender

Post by Alan B » Sep 11, 2016 10:42 pm

I have a small "Mighty Mini" 52V 14S 6AH pack with BMS from Luna that makes a nice short trip and range extension pack for the 52V setups. I plan to use it with the Xootr Swift folding bike too. It is a great size. I might get a second one, they are so handy. But it is not enough voltage for a 72V system.

I was wondering about a short trip / range extension pack for the 72V 20S Bonanza, and it occurred to me that we can series a 6S brick to this "Mighty Mini" pack and increase it to 20S. So how would we do this?

Choose a lipo brick that is 6S, more than 6AH and can deliver 50A without problems. It could be an 8AH brick. If it was, then the load current of 50A divided by 8AH would be a 6.25C discharge ratio. If we want to insure good life for the lipo it should be C rated for 3 or 4 times this, so a 20C or 25C rating should be fine. Zippy 8AH packs are rated 25C so that should work, and I have a few of those. Multistars are not suitable here. Turnigy 20C or 25C would work, say a pair of 25C 5AH 6S bricks in parallel, and I have a few of those. But paralleling the balance wires should be done as well, though a commercial cable for that is easily purchased. So it is fairly easy but not as easy as the single brick approach.

So how does this work? You make sure the lipo brick is fully charged, and the Mighty Mini is fully charged, and make a wiring setup to series them. Since you have chosen the lipo brick(s) to have more amp hour capacity than the Mighty Mini does, it will run down first, and its BMS will shut off first. The voltage drop will shut off the controller if it is set up right (make sure the LVC is higher than the 25V of the 6S lipo to insure this). So the lipo brick is in effect protected by the smaller pack shutting off well before it is exhausted. So it is a little bigger and heavier than it needs to be, but it represents a small fraction of the total pack, so the extra weight is minor, especially since this is a small pack already.

If you really want to be safe, put a reverse biased diode in the harness across the BMS to avoid the lipo brick(s) pushing any current into the BMS when it trips. This is generally recommended when series connecting BMS protected packs, which is often done to get 72V packs from a pair of 36V BMS protected sub-packs. Some BMS systems don't need this diode or are already protected, but it is cheap insurance to put into the harness (and won't do any harm to have a duplicate). Any BMS rated for series connections is already protected.

I haven't tried this yet, but series connected 36V BMS protected packs are in common use without problems, so it is worth considering.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by Alan B » Sep 14, 2016 10:58 pm

Image
Heading out to the Assault on the Hill

Front Brake Upgrade

I'm going to move this Hayes front brake to the Canyon Express, and upgrade this bike to a Shimano XT hydraulic front brake to match, more or less, the rear rim brake which is an XTR. There are no disc brake mounts on the frame, hence the rim rear brake. The Surly front fork has the usual 51mm IS disc mounts. I'm looking at the XT M8000 front disc brake, the XTR 9000's appear to be a bit over the top for this bike, I don't need carbon fiber levers. In most product lines, dropping back a level from the top often yields a good product without some of the costly fluff. In bicycle components the highest grade is often optimized for low weight, which is not such an important feature on an electric bike.

I've ordered a 2.5mm spacer for the 6 speed freewheel, I measured 5.3mm available and split the difference. Right now the derailleur would scrape the motor to shift into the lowest gear if I allowed it, so hopefully this will fix that. Received the new Park FR-1.3 freewheel tool for removal, this variant of the tool has clearance for the thick 14mm ebike axles.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by Alan B » Sep 18, 2016 8:27 pm

Progress

Today I experienced a flat tire from a tube failure, possibly caused by converting a rim from Presta to Schrader. I did that several years ago, but I'm wondering if I left the edges a bit sharp as the thick Slime tube failed right there. Most of the tubes I've used had metal valves so perhaps this snake has been hiding in the grass for awhile. I chamfered the hole better and installed a new Sunlite thorn proof tube.

While I had things apart I removed the freewheel and installed a 2.5mm bottom bracket spacer and realigned the derailleur. Now I can reach the Megarange gear as well as the other 5, so it really is a six speed. It is shifting smoothly but there is one problem - it can overshoot a little and dump the chain into the space beyond the first gear. The overtravel adjustment on the 8 speed SRAM X.4 derailleur can't fix this without also locking out the smallest sprocket. If I made a delrin spacer ring I could shift from the beyond first back into first, perhaps. :)

I might add a bumper on the derailleur so it touches the hubmotor before moving far enough to shift off the Megarange gear. If done right it might solve the problem.

Those freewheels sure are tight, a wrench didn't seem to work when loosening it, so I grabbed a deep impact socket and used an impact driver which spun it off instantly. I lightly greased the threads and surfaces for installing the new spacer but I think those threads always get very tight. Impact tools are amazing, though I would not use one to install the freewheel. The Park freewheel tool FR-1.3 which is made for hubmotor axles fits and works perfectly on the Megarange freewheel.

As mentioned in the last posting, a new hydraulic front brake was ordered, and it arrived today. A Shimano Deore XT M8000 front disc system. The install is only partial at this time, I left the Hayes adapter and disc on as the new adapter has not arrived, and some short screws for mounting the ICE disc are due in later. But the lever, hose and caliper were installed. The lever has a much narrower band to hold it to the handlebar, and this drastically improves the position of the shifter and the minor interference between the shifting trigger with the Magura grip flange. I'll add some pics later, but this is a good combination for my crowded handlebars. I wonder if they have a narrow mount lever for the rear XTR cable brake... If so that would likely help the right hand trigger shifter as well.

The static feel of the Shimano XT lever is very good, but I've a few more things to update before the bike will be ready for a test ride with the new front brake. This lever has adjustments, so it can be fine tuned. With mineral oil I don't have to worry about the finish being attacked by brake fluid. The Hayes brakes were fine, but recently the brake fluid was attacking the lever's own finish, and now they seem to be needing bleeding which may make things worse in terms of the finish. You'd think the manufacturer would use brake fluid resistant finish on a brake handle, at least for the fluid they use.

I was researching bicycle mineral based brake oil, and it looks like Shimano and Tektro may be compatible. The Shimano mineral brake oil is available in a larger and more cost effective container than the Tektro. Any comments on that?

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by Alan B » May 15, 2017 6:48 am

With all the rain here, and other distractions I haven't finished the rewiring job on the Bonanza. It is an amazing machine, with an amazing amount of wiring. The dual PhaseRunner controllers are small and help minimize the wiring with their simplified cabling, but there is still a lot there. I hope to get back onto it very soon. Come to think of it, this would be a good bike to take on a camping trip to Pismo we have planned, but there may not be time to get it finished.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by Alan B » Sep 11, 2017 7:12 am

Seven years on ES today, I just noticed. I think this was my first thread, or at least the first of any consequence.

Thanks for all the input here!

This has been a very busy summer so I haven't finished the wiring cleanup on this upgrade to dual PhaseRunners. With the new dual motor simulation on ebikes.ca, I will be able to fine tune the PhaseRunner settings for even better balance.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by 2old » Sep 11, 2017 10:58 am

Easy way for me to remove freewheels is to put the tool in a vise and rotate the wheel. I had the same problem with a Slime "thick" tube. The presta valve separated from the tube on the first ride. May be poor QC, but there are aluminum inserts (Problem Solvers) for presta valves in schrader "holes" that I'm trying next.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by tomjasz » Jan 11, 2018 9:13 pm

Alan B wrote:
Sep 11, 2017 7:12 am
Seven years on ES today, I just noticed. I think this was my first thread, or at least the first of any consequence.

Thanks for all the input here!

This has been a very busy summer so I haven't finished the wiring cleanup on this upgrade to dual PhaseRunners. With the new dual motor simulation on ebikes.ca, I will be able to fine tune the PhaseRunner settings for even better balance.
A great read beginning to end! Any finished project pics?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by Alan B » Jan 12, 2018 5:30 pm

When I finish it, I'll post a picture.

At the moment it is waiting for the rewiring to be completed, and other projects have taken priority.

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Re: The "Bonanza Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner 2WD eMTB

Post by tomjasz » Jan 12, 2018 7:28 pm

Alan B wrote:
Jan 12, 2018 5:30 pm
When I finish it, I'll post a picture.

At the moment it is waiting for the rewiring to be completed, and other projects have taken priority.
HAH I know how that is. 3 bikes are in limbo in the basement shop here...
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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