Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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speedict   10 kW

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 22 2013 8:19am

Ken Taylor wrote: It is a DC voltage. But when the pedal is at the top it has very little force on it so the signal is small. When the pedal is at the front and parallel to the ground the rider exerts a lot of force and this happens twice per revolution. So the signal from the pedal torque sensor will probably need to be smoothed in the Speedict software.
no, if it is torque sensor it is output dc level voltage, as per your information, your "so call" torque sensor look like position sensor ?
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by Ken Taylor » Jan 23 2013 2:03am

speedict wrote: no, if it is torque sensor it is output dc level voltage, as per your information, your "so call" torque sensor look like position sensor ?
It is the torque sensor shown in this circuit diagram http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 715#p37987 and described in the following text. I'll try connecting it to the Speedict and see how it goes.
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 23 2013 5:12am

Ken Taylor wrote:
speedict wrote: no, if it is torque sensor it is output dc level voltage, as per your information, your "so call" torque sensor look like position sensor ?
It is the torque sensor shown in this circuit diagram http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 715#p37987 and described in the following text. I'll try connecting it to the Speedict and see how it goes.
the information is misleading, so you need to confirm it by multimeter manually ...

on diagram shown the torque sensor will output 0-3v, on installation procedure say 4v vdc ... so please use multimeter to measure it :

1. tap the torque output wire
2. without any load e.g. lift your bike above ground
3. move you pedal forward and monitor your multimeter, it should steady on one voltage reading e.g. 2v since i want to confirm if it is sine wave or position sensor
4. now you can apply brake while turning your pedal to increase torque, and see if brake vs. multimeter reading is linear
5. if confirm it is vdc not sine wave, then found out the maximum torque sensor voltage output since mercury measure up to +5v max.
6. if over 5v you need voltage divider circuit to ceiling it to 5v

then you can use throttle function mode, not pas mode or road legal mode :

1. select function mode to throttle mode
2. on throttle type, select current throttle (torque control)
3. connect torque sensor to mercury's port 2
4. connect speed sensor to port 1
5. connect mercury's port 4 to your speed control's "speed adjust" port
6. now you have port 3 free, and you can use it for temperature sensor

i am bit concern ... with this configuration, you will be fixed on 1 speed ratio since we don't have power mode e.g. ECO / Sport ...
imagine your bike move and you keep pedaling, your torque sensor output will be decreased, say down to 1.5v and speedict output tiny power to port 4 ~ 90% human 10% electric powered ? but if we have power mode you can change like 50% human 50% electric power ?
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by twain » Jan 23 2013 8:53am

speedict wrote:
Ken Taylor wrote: It is a DC voltage. But when the pedal is at the top it has very little force on it so the signal is small. When the pedal is at the front and parallel to the ground the rider exerts a lot of force and this happens twice per revolution. So the signal from the pedal torque sensor will probably need to be smoothed in the Speedict software.
no, if it is torque sensor it is output dc level voltage, as per your information, your "so call" torque sensor look like position sensor ?
Hi Speedict (Steven?),

In the discussion, I think Ken’s earlier mention of a sine wave may have confused you a bit.

Of course, the torque sensor that is mentioned here is measuring the pressure that the rider’s feet is applying to the pedals -with the intention that this information be used instead of a throttle as a means telling the controller how much power should be applied to the motor. And the torque sensor’s output is very definitely DC.

It’s just that it’s not a steady DC output though; but rather, it’s an output which varies in a rhythmic nature because a rider’s pressure on the pedals doesn’t remain the same throughout a 360⁰ rotation of the pedals. And while this variation in the sensor’s DC output could be said to be approximately sine wave in nature –it’s still DC though!

Some early ebike designs with torque sensors have been known to be very susceptible to this rhythmic variation of the torque sensor’s output -causing a modulated application of motor power twice per each 360⁰ rotation of the pedals. And while this effect is probably not very good for the drive-train of the bike over a period of time; it’s also not a very pleasant effect for riders to experience.

So I think Ken was asking if this variation in the torque sensor’s output can be digitally averaged/filtered out so that the power assistance supplied by the motor is more consistent/smooth -and not pulsing twice for each rotation of the pedals.

This is a question that has got my interest also.

Regards

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by advancedo » Jan 23 2013 9:24am

twain wrote:
speedict wrote:
Ken Taylor wrote: It is a DC voltage. But when the pedal is at the top it has very little force on it so the signal is small. When the pedal is at the front and parallel to the ground the rider exerts a lot of force and this happens twice per revolution. So the signal from the pedal torque sensor will probably need to be smoothed in the Speedict software.
no, if it is torque sensor it is output dc level voltage, as per your information, your "so call" torque sensor look like position sensor ?
Hi Speedict (Steven?),

In the discussion, I think Ken’s earlier mention of a sine wave may have confused you a bit.

Of course, the torque sensor that is mentioned here is measuring the pressure that the rider’s feet is applying to the pedals -with the intention that this information be used instead of a throttle as a means telling the controller how much power should be applied to the motor. And the torque sensor’s output is very definitely DC.

It’s just that it’s not a steady DC output though; but rather, it’s an output which varies in a rhythmic nature because a rider’s pressure on the pedals doesn’t remain the same throughout a 360⁰ rotation of the pedals. And while this variation in the sensor’s DC output could be said to be approximately sine wave in nature –it’s still DC though!

Some early ebike designs with torque sensors have been known to be very susceptible to this rhythmic variation of the torque sensor’s output -causing a modulated application of motor power twice per each 360⁰ rotation of the pedals. And while this effect is probably not very good for the drive-train of the bike over a period of time; it’s also not a very pleasant effect for riders to experience.

So I think Ken was asking if this variation in the torque sensor’s output can be digitally averaged/filtered out so that the power assistance supplied by the motor is more consistent/smooth -and not pulsing twice for each rotation of the pedals.

This is a question that has got my interest also.

Regards
Simply put a capacitor between throttle out signal (or torque sensor output) and GND. The capacitor will smooth the rhytmic dc.
See here in german language: http://www.elektronik-kompendium.de/sit ... 210251.htm
In english see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_%28electrical%29

With greetings from Germany

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by twain » Jan 23 2013 11:26am

advancedo wrote:
Simply put a capacitor between throttle out signal (or torque sensor output) and GND. The capacitor will smooth the rhytmic dc.
See here in german language: http://www.elektronik-kompendium.de/sit ... 210251.htm
In english see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_%28electrical%29

With greetings from Germany
Hi advancedo, greetings from Australia!

May I take this opportunity to explain why I think that simply using a capacitor to filter torque sensor ripple may not be the best way to achieve the desired result…

Firstly, if we are talking about filtering the ripple that’s present after AC power rectification, then that’s comparatively easy to do -since the frequency of the ripple is constant; thereby making it simple to calculate the values for the required filter components.

But on a bicycle, speeds can vary; with the consequence that the torque sensor’s ripple frequency is not a constant. So if a certain value of capacitor was chosen as being suitable for filtering ripple at medium cadence (speed of pedal rotation); then at lower speeds a progressively larger capacitor would be needed to produce the same effect.

But a larger capacitor could make the system slow or laggy to respond overall. And that aspect could likely only be solved by having different capacitors switched into the circuit at different speeds!

However, by tackling the problem in the digital domain, then a clever algorithm could be used that self-adjusts to pedal cadence so that the optimum degree of filtering is applied no matter what the ripple frequency from the torque sensor is.

I suspect that that this would be the best way to achieve the desired effect while still having the bike respond in a spritely / non-laggy manner whenever genuine changes in speed are required.

Regards

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 24 2013 1:59am

twain wrote: But on a bicycle, speeds can vary; with the consequence that the torque sensor’s ripple frequency is not a constant. So if a certain value of capacitor was chosen as being suitable for filtering ripple at medium cadence (speed of pedal rotation); then at lower speeds a progressively larger capacitor would be needed to produce the same effect.

correct !
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by Erikjan » Jan 24 2013 7:18am

Today i recieved the Mercury :) Looks verry good.
Nice long cables for throttle in and out. ~ 45cm.

This weekend i change the old speedict for the mercury and let you know if this is much better.

thanks Danny for great after sales service.

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by advancedo » Jan 24 2013 9:37am

twain wrote:However, by tackling the problem in the digital domain, then a clever algorithm could be used that self-adjusts to pedal cadence so that the optimum degree of filtering is applied no matter what the ripple frequency from the torque sensor is.
Yes, I agree a solution in software would be smarter.
twain wrote:But a larger capacitor could make the system slow or laggy to respond overall. And that aspect could likely only be solved by having different capacitors switched into the circuit at different speeds!
A similar problem you could get with digital mikrocontroller circuit, because the slowest cadence may 30 rpm >> frequency of torque sensor output is 1 Hz. The mikrocontroller doesn't know for one second if there come another high torque signal or if the human doesn't pedal anymore. So this solution has a lag of one second. Maybe you can choose higher minimum level cadence in software.

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by Ken Taylor » Jan 25 2013 1:32am

twain wrote: However, by tackling the problem in the digital domain, then a clever algorithm could be used that self-adjusts to pedal cadence so that the optimum degree of filtering is applied no matter what the ripple frequency from the torque sensor is.

I suspect that that this would be the best way to achieve the desired effect while still having the bike respond in a spritely / non-laggy manner whenever genuine changes in speed are required.
This is a starting point rather than the final goal as I've ambitions for trying various control algorithms. For example, once the bike is moving at a reasonable speed I want to try proportional power assist rather than proportional torque assist so that assist is independent of gear selected.

However, these are all in the future. I haven't even played with a Speedict yet and have no idea what might be possible.

I'm gradually developing the ideas in a series of articles, the most recent being http://blog.urremote.com/2013/01/a-stea ... -fast.html .
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by Erikjan » Jan 25 2013 7:58am

Danny do we have the one button roadlegal button with the mercury?
I read the manual but dont see anything about that.

It will be nice when we can switch between roadlegal 2 and unlimited throttle only with one button when cops stops us.


sunday i go install the mercury

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by wannesd » Jan 25 2013 8:05am

What would be really cool, is another speedict, which would have a CA connector, to connect to all controllers with a CA out. That would mean the speedict could lose the shunt, would be cheaper to make and easier to wire in an existing setup

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 25 2013 8:58am

Erikjan wrote:Danny do we have the one button roadlegal button with the mercury?
I read the manual but dont see anything about that.

It will be nice when we can switch between roadlegal 2 and unlimited throttle only with one button when cops stops us.

sunday i go install the mercury

we only have instant legal shortcut on speedict venus, not on speedict mercury because the instant legal shortcut is one way quick change which is not elegant enough :)
imagine you are on throttle mode with current throttle or speed limit to 50km, suddenly you want to switch to legal 2 mode speed limited to 25km (provided you have all sensor connected), after awhile you want to change it back to throttle mode, but current design you might need to go through some settings such as speed gain or time gain on speed throttle setup, that's is painful ...
later we will re-work the whole function mode module to custom function mode, e.g. you can create your own function mode like "test-drive" and all setting parameters will also be stored within individual function, and these functions can be quick switch via shortcut interface.

1. you are on "test-drive" function mode, and suddenly you want to change to road legal 2 mode by tap on the road legal 2 function mode on shortcut menu, after awhile you can tap on the "test-drive" function mode to resume your previous setting.

or 2. each family members can has their own function mode and style !
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by advancedo » Jan 25 2013 11:40am

Hi Danny,
is it possible (in the future) to use the usb-port or bluetooth (or if the microcontroller have an i2c-interface to use free io-ports) to connect to an (USB-/bluetooth)LCD?
I ask this because android-smartphones are smart, but in the bright sunlight is every modern smartphone difficulty to read off.
In contrast to LCD, which are in bright sunlight very easily to read off. This is in my opinion the major advantage of the cycle-analyst.
Here are some links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7B4iJsnmCk
http://www.crystalfontz.com/product/CFA634YFHKU

Next idea:
I use a heart-rate-belt to measure my heartrate when i cycle. I use an ant+ heart-rate-belt from garmin and an ant+ capable sony xperia arc s with following apps: HRnavi+, GarminFit and uBikeLite.
I can use ant+ and bluetooth at same time, but i have to switch between apps when i want to view my heartrate or to view the eBike (or mercury) data.
It would be nice, if it would be possible to watch the heartrate in a data field of eBikes live view.
And then the heartrate could be logged similar to gps-data?

Greetings from germany

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 27 2013 1:02am

advancedo wrote:Hi Danny,
is it possible (in the future) to use the usb-port or bluetooth (or if the microcontroller have an i2c-interface to use free io-ports) to connect to an (USB-/bluetooth)LCD?
I ask this because android-smartphones are smart, but in the bright sunlight is every modern smartphone difficulty to read off.
In contrast to LCD, which are in bright sunlight very easily to read off. This is in my opinion the major advantage of the cycle-analyst.
Here are some links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7B4iJsnmCk
http://www.crystalfontz.com/product/CFA634YFHKU
we might have more external interface on further product such as spi, so it is possible for external lcd module then.
advancedo wrote:

Next idea:
I use a heart-rate-belt to measure my heartrate when i cycle. I use an ant+ heart-rate-belt from garmin and an ant+ capable sony xperia arc s with following apps: HRnavi+, GarminFit and uBikeLite.
I can use ant+ and bluetooth at same time, but i have to switch between apps when i want to view my heartrate or to view the eBike (or mercury) data.
It would be nice, if it would be possible to watch the heartrate in a data field of eBikes live view.
And then the heartrate could be logged similar to gps-data?
have to take a look of the ant+ library first.
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by IHatePedalling » Jan 27 2013 3:45am

Erikjan wrote:Danny do we have the one button roadlegal button with the mercury?
I read the manual but dont see anything about that.

It will be nice when we can switch between roadlegal 2 and unlimited throttle only with one button when cops stops us.


sunday i go install the mercury
For the function described by Erikjan, I have bought the mercury only to find out that it actually seems to be useless at the moment for me. I hope that this "switch" will come available soon.
The previous posts with Nico and Erikjan made me believe that mercury should be THE device with this special function.

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 27 2013 3:58am

IHatePedalling wrote:
Erikjan wrote:Danny do we have the one button roadlegal button with the mercury?
I read the manual but dont see anything about that.

It will be nice when we can switch between roadlegal 2 and unlimited throttle only with one button when cops stops us.


sunday i go install the mercury
For the function described by Erikjan, I have bought the mercury only to find out that it actually seems to be useless at the moment for me. I hope that this "switch" will come available soon.
The previous posts with Nico and Erikjan made me believe that mercury should be THE device with this special function.

wait for the update ...
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by advancedo » Jan 28 2013 3:47am

Hi Danny,

here i give you feedback to your new website:
1. It looks fine.
2. I can use your new website with Konqueror Version 4.4.4 (KDE 4.4.4) "release 2" but not with Firefox Version 3.6.6 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; de; rv:1.9.2.6) Gecko/20100626 SUSE/3.6.6-1.2 Firefox/3.6.6).
With Firefox i can only load home and i can't switch to "EBIKE COMPUTER" or "EBIKE ACCESSORY" (scripts are allowed for speedict.com).
With Konqueror all works fine.
I know i don't use the latest version of firefox, but if i want to switch to newer version i have to switch to newer version of linux-distribution too. I don't really fancy doing that at the moment.

Greetings from Germany

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 28 2013 5:14am

advancedo wrote:Hi Danny,

here i give you feedback to your new website:
1. It looks fine.
2. I can use your new website with Konqueror Version 4.4.4 (KDE 4.4.4) "release 2" but not with Firefox Version 3.6.6 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; de; rv:1.9.2.6) Gecko/20100626 SUSE/3.6.6-1.2 Firefox/3.6.6).
With Firefox i can only load home and i can't switch to "EBIKE COMPUTER" or "EBIKE ACCESSORY" (scripts are allowed for speedict.com).
With Konqueror all works fine.
I know i don't use the latest version of firefox, but if i want to switch to newer version i have to switch to newer version of linux-distribution too. I don't really fancy doing that at the moment.

Greetings from Germany
thank you so much advancedo, i was told ipad has issues too, will investigate it tonight, because of we keep receiving order today therefore we don't aware on it, we have tied different platform or version too but obviously not enough :)
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by Yet_Another_Dave » Jan 28 2013 7:55am

Tested with iPad2 .. speedict.com working fine :D

Latest firefox on windows also working fine.

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 28 2013 8:00am

Yet_Another_Dave wrote:Tested with iPad2 .. speedict.com working fine :D

Latest firefox on windows also working fine.
thanks !

also tested with iphone ios 5.0.1 working fine.
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 31 2013 3:13am

Erikjan wrote:Today i recieved the Mercury :) Looks verry good.
Nice long cables for throttle in and out. ~ 45cm.

This weekend i change the old speedict for the mercury and let you know if this is much better.

thanks Danny for great after sales service.
hi erikjan,

just uploaded the mercury 1.0.7 version, this version has instant legal feature.
as i said this is not elegant approach, when you want legal, you can select instant legal shortcut from the notification bar, but after that if you want to back to your previous settings, you need to manually setup step by step since speedict mercury did not store your function mode parameters, we are designing the Customize Function Mode features that allows quick switch between your own defined function mode such as "My speed test mode" to "Road legal 2" or to "For my wife" function mode or profile !
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by Ozjet » Jan 31 2013 6:34am

gday danny,
i had the problem with the rom on my galaxy s2 the speedict kept disconnecting .
i cant change the rom myself, and i cant find anybody to do it for me.
what sort of phone do you sugest i might get.
i am using it exclusivly for speedict.
i need to get it on and working.
also when will the instant leagal one button change and back again be happening.
this is the main reason i bought it.
thanks stuart
No smoking please.

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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by speedict » Jan 31 2013 6:48am

Ozjet wrote:gday danny,
i had the problem with the rom on my galaxy s2 the speedict kept disconnecting .
i cant change the rom myself, and i cant find anybody to do it for me.
what sort of phone do you sugest i might get.
i am using it exclusivly for speedict.
i need to get it on and working.
first of all can you tell me your current speedict mercury android client version ? please download the latest 1.0.7 from google play first, it might fix the samsung rom issues, and let me know your result.
Ozjet wrote:also when will the instant leagal one button change and back again be happening.
this is the main reason i bought it.
thanks stuart

already upload to android market, the version is 1.0.7
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Re: Speedict Ebike - Anybody seen/tried this?

Post by Ozjet » Jan 31 2013 7:00am

AWSOME
i really hope it fixes it
im at work at the moment so not sure of version . 1.0.1 rings a bell
i have done no other upgrades since ive had it (around christmas time)
is all i need to do upgrade the speedict? to .0.7
thanks again for your speedy responce
No smoking please.

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