Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

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Bazaki   10 kW

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Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Bazaki » Dec 02 2010 3:11pm

Hi All,

I would like to build my first e-bike.
My goal is making a bike that can reach 50km/h so I prefer the Crystalye 5304 motor ( Phoenix Cruiser )

I have about 14x 6s 5000mah Lipo Turnigy lipo batteries. ( I won't use all of them )

So I can make 66,6v and 44,4v nominal. I prefer 66,6v for a better topspeed.

Now I would like to buy a good controller.
The controller that electricrider.com will sell is a 48v or 72v, but if I fully charger my 66,6v batterypack I will have 75v and near empty I will have about 55v, so I don't think I can use their 72v controller.

What about a Kellycontroller ? I already have a 600A controller from them, but that is for brushed motors.
Their voltage range is from 18v till 90v, so you can play arround with different kind of voltages.


http://kellycontroller.com/kbl7210124-7 ... -p-56.html

Like this one, can this work together ? Or is this a totally different kind of controller ?



What other options do I have ?

Please advise !

Thanks.
Last edited by Bazaki on Dec 02 2010 4:23pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by MadRhino » Dec 02 2010 3:17pm

You can use the 72v Clyte controller, it will give more speed that you want with a 5304, and will LV shut off at 56v. Perfect for a 18s lipo battery.
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Bazaki   10 kW

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Bazaki » Dec 02 2010 3:50pm

With Clyte 72v you mean the Crystalyte ?

http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/x-ct7240c.htm

I can't find the 56v LVC on this one.



http://kellycontroller.com/keb7233024v- ... p-273.html
This won't work ?

18v-90v

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by icecube57 » Dec 02 2010 5:30pm

Why not get a lyen 12 fet 45A. He can make it dual voltage range 36-60v and 60-84v. Lots of nifty features. Yes the 12fet is up to the job on this motor.

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by MadRhino » Dec 02 2010 5:46pm

Yep, I have the bigger version of this one (72v 49A), that I run with 18s lipo. I bought it from Maxwell65 and it has 18 4110 mosfets, so it is upgrade ready for higher voltage. The small one is not so ready to ugrade, but will offer close performance at 72v. They are not programmable, and their LVC is set at 56v.http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 31&t=14506

If you want to buy a Kelly, I would suggest to chose the one that they make especially for Chrystalyte motors. It will be no pain to fit, and very powerfull programmable controller. http://kellycontroller.com/keb7260172v- ... p-651.html

I find it heavy and expansive, I would suggest that you have a look at the powerfull controllers that are sold on the forum by Lyen, Steveo, and Methods. They are a better deal, I believe, and lighter too.
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Bazaki   10 kW

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Bazaki » Dec 02 2010 6:22pm

Are you sure it has a LVC at 56v, electricrider.com also could not confirm this.


your link to the Maxwell thread is interesting

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by MadRhino » Dec 02 2010 6:43pm

Bazaki wrote:Are you sure it has a LVC at 56v, electricrider.com also could not confirm this.


your link to the Maxwell thread is interesting
Max sells the same stock Clyte controllers, he can tell you the facts about them. Mine is looking exactly like the smaller one that you linked, only longer. It is labelled Chrystalyte 72v 49A. I can confirm that it shuts out at 56v for I tested the LVC before installation on my bike, the smaller one is the same with less mosfets and limited to 40A. Since it is a Clyte 72v, it would normally be set at the same LVC, check with Max.

The other one that I bought from Lyen, has 18 4115 mosfets, so is capable of much higher voltage, yet smaller, lighter, and programmable. You can find amazing controllers, built or modified by members of the forum, when you are after performance.
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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Ariane » Dec 02 2010 7:19pm

Bazaki,

If you want to use a X5304 i suggest an 18 Mosfets 4110 from Lyen cheaper then a Kelly controller and you can mods this controller for the voltage of your choice with the network resistor.

This way you have a reliable set up at cheap price, and it makes a nice ebike, your videos with the Agni is impressive seem really fun.

Good day !
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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by BLUESTREAK » Dec 02 2010 10:28pm

Yes contact LYEN in the for sale section(new). he can set the 72 volt controller at what ever lowvoltage cut that you want and do all sorts of other goodies for you. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :D :D

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by John in CR » Dec 02 2010 10:52pm

I would definitely suggest a programmable controller with 4110 FETs, which will give you flexibility down the road. If you can fit the longer 18 FET version or the massive 24 FET, then go for it. That way your controller can grow with you, and you can customize it to your tastes. Then if you decide later to go for more speed the you can go as high as 100V fresh off the charger. If you order from one from Lyen, get one of his ebike testers too, which is a great little diagnostic tool for any DIY ebiker.

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Bazaki   10 kW

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Bazaki » Dec 08 2010 6:22pm

Thanks Guys, I've bought the controller and some other stuff from Lyen !
It will work from 36v till 100v :D

About the Crystalyte 5304, besides Electricrider and ebikes.ca are there other companies that sell this motor, Shippingcosts are 240 USD, so maybe I can buy it in europe ?

Image

And another question about my bike, I think my bike is aluminium, Do I have to make the space in my rear fork wider to fit the Crystalite x5304 Hub ?
And don't I need a torque arm ?

I want to ride safe ofcourse, so I hope somebody can help.

Thanks.

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by MadRhino » Dec 08 2010 7:03pm

You need a torque arm. The fit of the motor depends of the width of your dropouts, the spacer that you might need to align your disc in the caliper, and the gearset that you will use. Normally, you would have 135mm dropouts, and this will leave just enough space for a7 gear freewheel. If you have wider dropouts, you may be able to fit 9. You can't stretch an aluminium frame, it will make it prone to crack.
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Bazaki   10 kW

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Bazaki » Dec 11 2010 11:20am

Thanks,

I heard that there is a new Crystalyte HUB motor coming next month. same power as the x5 series, but smaller and weights 6,5kg instead of 11 kg.

Any more news about this ? I hope they are just as strong as the "old" Hub motors.

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by John in CR » Dec 11 2010 12:02pm

I hope they are stronger than the old ones. :mrgreen:

Oops, forgot a few:
Thicker phase wires.
Better connection to the bike.
More efficient.
Better cooling.
Waterproof, not just mildly water resistant.
40% cheaper since 40% less raw materials needed.

That's all I can think of for now, but hopefully they are better in a lot of respects.

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Drunkskunk   100 GW

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Drunkskunk » Dec 11 2010 12:21pm

Bazaki wrote:Thanks,

I heard that there is a new Crystalyte HUB motor coming next month. same power as the x5 series, but smaller and weights 6,5kg instead of 11 kg.

Any more news about this ? I hope they are just as strong as the "old" Hub motors.
I haven't heard, but the beauty of the X5 is that it Does weigh 11kg, meaning it has all that extra mass to soak up heat out of the windings when you try somthing insain like dumping 10 kilo watts into it.
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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by John in CR » Dec 11 2010 6:18pm

Drunkskunk wrote:I haven't heard, but the beauty of the X5 is that it Does weigh 11kg, meaning it has all that extra mass to soak up heat out of the windings when you try somthing insain like dumping 10 kilo watts into it.
I've seen this kind of comment a few times recently, along with some saying the X5 is able to dissipate heat better too, because it is heavy. While the greater heat capacity of more mass can be beneficial for short bursts of power, once you get past about 10-20 seconds, you have to look more at the continuous rating. It's the long hills that are killers, and 10-20 sec is nothing. A sealed hubmotor only dissipates heat to the outside world through it's external surfaces, so what really matters is the external surface area and the thermal pathway to it, not the mass.

Also, steel isn't a great conductor of heat, so I question how beneficial it is even during the short bursts of power. It's more likely that the waste heat of short bursts ends up stuck mostly in the copper, because while creating heat is fast, heat transfer via conduction is slow. We want to beat the heat with more efficiency.

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by MadRhino » Dec 11 2010 7:02pm

The new Clyte is supposed to be sensorless, I hope to be able to test one 1st week of Feb. I still have to order a powerfull sensorless controller before the new Clyte comes in.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by John in CR » Dec 11 2010 9:17pm

MadRhino wrote:The new Clyte is supposed to be sensorless, I hope to be able to test one 1st week of Feb. I still have to order a powerfull sensorless controller before the new Clyte comes in.
For me, that's a big black mark if true. Sensorless may work for pedelecs, but I haven't heard of one driving high power thru a hubbie, so that could mean moderate power limits and limited controller selection at first. If anyone hears different please let us know. If they're wiring for 6 or 9 phase with the potential to run multiple 3 phase controllers, then I'll retract, because going to 6 phase is something I see as a simple change that would be a significant improvement for going sensorless, or sensored for that matter.

Could it be that Justin at Grin has some secret stuff about to be launched. That genius has been awfully quiet. Plus the name change. Plus the recent garage sale to make more room. How about some interest news leaks instead of the wiki-leaks crap? Something like a 90%+ peak efficiency 6.5kg X5 with one of the winds having a Kv of 16rpm/v, and a sine wave sensorless controller that can be pushed to 100A100V with the low turn count motor. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

A guy can dream can't he? 8)

John

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by MadRhino » Dec 11 2010 10:39pm

I think you're dreaming, yes.
IMO they just want to compete with the lighter and cheaper out there, to increase their market share. So I have no great hope, but I want to believe, and I'll try one as soon as Max receives his shipment, including the 5306 that my Demo 8 is desperately waiting for. As for the sensorless controller, It will be good to have one here, just in case.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Drunkskunk » Dec 12 2010 10:05am

John in CR wrote:
Drunkskunk wrote:I haven't heard, but the beauty of the X5 is that it Does weigh 11kg, meaning it has all that extra mass to soak up heat out of the windings when you try somthing insain like dumping 10 kilo watts into it.
I've seen this kind of comment a few times recently, along with some saying the X5 is able to dissipate heat better too, because it is heavy. While the greater heat capacity of more mass can be beneficial for short bursts of power, once you get past about 10-20 seconds, you have to look more at the continuous rating. It's the long hills that are killers, and 10-20 sec is nothing. A sealed hubmotor only dissipates heat to the outside world through it's external surfaces, so what really matters is the external surface area and the thermal pathway to it, not the mass.

Also, steel isn't a great conductor of heat, so I question how beneficial it is even during the short bursts of power. It's more likely that the waste heat of short bursts ends up stuck mostly in the copper, because while creating heat is fast, heat transfer via conduction is slow. We want to beat the heat with more efficiency.
I don't know anything about dissapating heat in regards to the X5, although it does have one of the larger surface areas for the magnet ring available for a bike, But even ignoring that fact, more mass takes more energy to raise its tempature.

As for iron not being a "Great" conductor of heat, that may be missleading. Iron is a Very good conductor of heat, with around 50 to 60W/mK, especialy compared to Air at 0.024W/mK, or even water at 0.58W/mK. Copper and Aluminum are "Excilent" conductors of heat, with Aluminum being around 250W/mK, but there are very few materials that transfer heat better than Iron. Sure, the X5 would be better at taking heat if it was 11kg of Copper, but that extra 4kg of iron is far better than nothing.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/therm ... d_429.html
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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Bazaki » Dec 13 2010 6:16pm

Ok I will go for the " old" Crystalyte.

But about the 5304, would it be good for in the forrest ? No hills but still off-road.

Maybe I have to go for the 5305 ? But i'm afraid it is to slow, on the other hand a 5305 with 66,6 lipo will also reach 60 km/h on a 26inch rim 80kg driver ?

I have no experience with 60km/h on a MTB but I can imagine that 60 km/h is more than enough.


Could someone tell me the difference between a 5304 and 5305 in topspeed with 66,6v ?

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by MadRhino » Dec 13 2010 7:39pm

5304 would spin 20% faster than 5305 with the same voltage. Increasing voltage to make a motor spin faster is not a problem, they all can handle higher voltage without any damage.

It is by increasing the power, that you can make your motor more suitable for offroad conditions, by increasing its torque. I use a 5304 at 72v 50A now, and I find that its performance is good for on or off road, as long as there is not any steep climbing. The top speed on flat is higher than most would want to ride (76Kh), but I will alway want more. I'm going to run 100v 100A next spring, and it should then deliver fair performance in the mountain, and will be a beast on the flat.

That is the real advantage of the Chrystalyte X5: You will be able to feed it to suit your needs, and it will take it. You know yourself, just feed it what you think will be fine, and if you have a powerfull programmable controller, increasing performance will only be a matter of minor mods on your setup.
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Bazaki   10 kW

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by Bazaki » Dec 14 2010 3:45am

I've read a lot about these Crystalyte hubs and saw almost any video of it on youtube. I also don't see anything that would be better with the 5305 compared to the 5304.

I thought that it has more torque at lower speeds, I want to run it at 66,6v lipo, 15ah, wondering if the 5305 would be quicker from 0 km/h till 30 km/h than the 5304. So it is more suitable for driving in the ofroad forrest.

I will run it with a 36-100v 18 fet Lyen controller.

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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by MadRhino » Dec 14 2010 4:42am

Well, the 5305 will start a bit faster, but it is really the amps that you will feed that will make a difference in the torque of your bike. The difference between various windings in an electric motor does not have the same effect as changing the gear ratio on a mechanical setup. Both motors can have the very same performance, only one will use more juice and the other one more power.

If you want to stick to a fixed battery configuration, then you have to chose the motor that will spin the desired speed for the voltage that you have. I use a dozen battery packs that I can wire to various configurations, to match the desired performance with the motor that is on the bike. I will be able to compare data only when I can target the same performance on 2 different windings, that what I plan to do with my next build with a 5306. But as far as I learned on this forum, the main difference will be in the efficiency curve, and not so much in the maximum performance.
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Re: Can't choose a good controller for Crystalyte 5304

Post by dogman dan » Dec 14 2010 7:27am

I think the biggest difference in different windings aside from top speed is in thier minimum speeds. That's a confusing statement even to me, so here comes the talk talk talk.

Hubmotors turn slow, and make more heat the slower they go.

They are happiest when running at thier faster speeds, near the full throttle setting. So is the controller, which works harder when current limitng than when at full throttle.

So the slow wind is going to heat up the motor and the controller less at slower speeds than the faster wind, assuming both are turning slowish in a 26" wheel.

So what does this mean? I have two 9c motors, one wound medium fast, the othe wound very slow. I can ride the slow one up steep hills at 5 mph, or hauling a very heavy load for one hour before it starts getting very hot, even in warm weather like 100F. The medium fast winding can do the same thing for about 20 min, and then gets hot.

So if you are going to really flog that motor, go for the slow winding. I use mine on trails that are impossible to ride faster than 10 mph, because they are twisty, way steep, or trails with bumps you don't want to hit faster than about 15 mph. Perfect match for me.

You can get the same effect by letting the motor spin faster, as it wants to, by using smaller rims. That is a common approach. I like to keep the 26" rim, and not change the frame geometry of the bike so much.

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