Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Spacey   100 kW

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Announcement of intent.

Post by Spacey » Dec 12 2010 4:55pm

Dear all,

After the train wreck that is this thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 9&start=45

I thought it would be best for any member on here to show if they have a vested business interest, I can not believe that a forum member would steal other peoples pictures and vids claiming they are his builds etc to start a new business, so in the interest of honesty and integrity......

I would like to notify that due to forth coming redundancies at work I am looking to open a shop for Ebikes in January/Feb time. Business premises has been sorted and paid for and the other tasks of setting up a business are in hand.

Just wanted to declare my interest and where I am at for the future, the only thing I will say about this company is that it will be a very fair and honest setup with the main focus being on customer focus and communication, two things very much missing from most businesses.

Having spent 4 months on this site learning everything I could obsessively and also maxing out my credit card buying and testing all sorts of controllers/motors etc I decided a few weeks ago....sod it....I can do this and do it right! After my 6th build for customers I feel now that my knowledge and ability are now enough to make a go at this. I have learnt much from this community and have tried to give back as much as I could when my ability's were enough to help.

Hoping that this will not alienate me from this forum as I mean to be a very vocal contributor to discussions. I have found a new passion and it is electric bikes, even sold my car and have now cycled for 4 months to work every day come rain or snow.

The company is called: "System Effect"

Wish me luck

All the best

Spacey
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Jeremy Harris   10 GW

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Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by Jeremy Harris » Dec 12 2010 5:06pm

Following on from the locked topic (good move, moderators), I'd be interested to hear what forum members think about the use of the common knowledge pool on here to make other members money?

Personally, I have no problem at all with anyone using anything I've posted here to help their business, as long as it's given open and honest attribution, without misleading adverts. I do feel very strongly about people joining this forum, asking for help and advice and then going off and starting a business using the knowledge they've gleaned, but with exaggerated specifications and no acknowledgement of the help they've had.

I'm truly ashamed that a fellow Brit has behaved in the way that NS28 has towards other members of this forum. Had he asked, he could have had all the help and support he wanted for his business, free of charge, from me, as long as his objectives were as he has stated.

Jeremy
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Re: Announcement of intent.

Post by Jeremy Harris » Dec 12 2010 5:12pm

You have my wholehearted support, as long as any claims you make are supported by evidence. Feel free to ask for any help you need, we need more ebike businesses in the UK.

My only problem with NS28 was the deceit. Using other members knowledge, photos and videos, making wild claims as to performance and then trying to claim the moral high ground on the basis of green issues and freedom from copyright restrictions seemed completely out of order to me.

Coincidentally I've just started a thread that has some resonance with this one, maybe they could be merged if the mods think it sensible.

Jeremy
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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by icecube57 » Dec 12 2010 5:17pm

Yes cause there are respectable ways to do it an Hyena proved it. Hyena's scope is no different than NS28. One was honest well executed and straight laced. The other was shady, dishonest, sloppy and piss poorly thought out.

We cant let a few bad seeds spoil the bunch. We must move on expand,grow, and mature to something respectable to gain acceptance and better the movement.

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Re: Announcement of intent.

Post by Spacey » Dec 12 2010 5:20pm

Cheers Jeremy,

Have already shot a video with 53mile range ride from commuter bike at legal speed with no pedalling and lots of Wiltshire hills i.e 15.5mph.

Anything I place on website specification wise will be held up with hard evidence by way of video, photo and also demo rides.

Specifications only tell half of a story....there are specifications and there is the truth lol.
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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by TylerDurden » Dec 12 2010 5:21pm

Using knowledge... no problemo.

Using IP materials (drawings, pix, video, etc) without permission.... no, period.

And giving credit where credit is due (even if not required)... well, good relationships are vastly rewarding in tangible and non-tangible ways.
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by johnrobholmes » Dec 12 2010 5:26pm

Merged the two for you.


Disclaimer, I own Holmes Bikes and have used this forum to learn and share quite a lot of knowledge. I plan to open up a storefront in my town in the next year :lol: I love to build wheels, and people say I have a problem with them :lol:

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by AmpEater » Dec 12 2010 5:31pm

TylerDurden wrote:Using knowledge... no problemo.

Using IP materials (drawings, pix, video, etc) without permission.... no, period.

And giving credit where credit is due (even if not required)... well, good relationships are vastly rewarding in tangible and non-tangible ways.

Nailed it.

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by icecube57 » Dec 12 2010 5:32pm

TylerDurden wrote: Using knowledge... no problemo.

Using IP materials (drawings, pix, video, etc) without permission.... no, period.

And giving credit where credit is due (even if not required)... well, good relationships are vastly rewarding in tangible and non-tangible ways.
I agree.. Keep forgetting that scope.

I would like for someone to use stock factory photos before they misuse any public/private material without ask.

What was so hard about using stock factory photos.

Are we going to have to watermark stuff like Lyen does with his stuff.

When I post auctions yes I could post a factory photo but I often find a blank sheet of paper or a solid colored cloth to take picture of my components before I get a factory photo.

It woud have gave credit that he had the stuff in stock before but Im getting off topic. Photos and video should stay in forum unless specifically searched for or avaliable outside forum but I can control what other people do outside the forum.

Youtube is public unless you have set your videos to private. So we really cant protect our video content unless it hosted and streamed from a secure server

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by johnrobholmes » Dec 12 2010 5:37pm

I'm gonna start watermarking my builds. Sucks to have to go through that effort, but when somebody is trying to make a profit from the years of experience and $thousands in tools I have purchased- it doesn't leave me much choice.

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by Jeremy Harris » Dec 12 2010 5:39pm

Personally, the last thing I'd like to see is honest vendors feeling that this forum was an uncomfortable place to hang out. I appreciate that posting on a forum as a vendor is a bit like walking a tightrope, someone is always going to try and make you teeter, even if it's only a competitor, but we really need good suppliers.

The really big challenge, in my view, is tech support. Many suppliers try to break into this market only to fall at the first hurdle when they fail to understand how the stuff that they are selling really works. Being on a forum like this, with many savvy members who can spot a misleading claim at a thousand paces, makes being a vendor tough. I should know, because a few of them have fallen foul of my probing into their claims.

We do have some outstandingly honest suppliers, though, people who are open about what they sell and sell it for what it is, with no exaggerated claims. Ed Lyen, Hyena, Recumpence, Ping, methods, Keywin Ge, cell_man, Gary Goodrum, Richard Fechter, DocBass to name just a few, have proved that they are honest vendors and are people I would trust. I hope that the list grows.

Jeremy
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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by MadRhino » Dec 12 2010 6:02pm

Any knowledge, or even the lack of it, can be used to start a business. I don't care where someone gathered his knowledge, or was misguided into ignorance. Yes, I believe that anyone should be free to start his own business.

Then, there should be, and there are, rules that apply to any business to make it legitimate.

-Must deliver what he sells.
-Must advertize the truth about what he sells.
-Must honour any promises or warranty given to his clients.
-Must obtain the rights to resell what others made, or to copy what others invented.
-Must not hide facts in order to misguide clients into buying some goods or services.
-Must not create a business structure that is fraudulent to clients, suppliers, partners, or employees.
-Must not use any illegal business practice, nor sell any illegal goods or services.
-Must not hide his or his associates identity, nor the legal address of his locations.

In that matter, we have seen some that should not be considered legitimate businesses. Malpractice, even crooks, are everywhere on the internet.
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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by Alan B » Dec 12 2010 6:10pm

This is a good discussion, and perhaps if something like this was seen by everyone problems like the thread linked in the first posting could be avoided. Perhaps it should be developed into a simple policy statement that would guide vendors. With all the language barriers and cultural differences some of these procedures are not well understood or their importance not obvious. Common sense is neither.

Especially important:

1. Don't use other's photos, videos, drawings, code, etc without permission.

2. Give credit.

Disclaimer - I'm not a vendor on ES but may someday be.

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by Gordo » Dec 12 2010 6:46pm

Profit is not a dirty word to me. If one can earn a living from a love of life, that is fantastic. This is an amazing forum when it comes to a balance of being both a great source for information and a source for honest suppliers. As Jeremy points out, flakes are spotted and pounced on instantly. Once you allow advertising, look out. A forum becomes a mess with the advertiser claiming his non-existent "rights". When a forum owner gets hooked on their cash, they tend to side with the advertiser, even if in the beginning they didn't think they would.
If someone designs a useful component, circuit or part and does not want to give it away, don't post it. Once you post it, whoever takes the initiative and builds a few for friends or profit, is doing us all a service. They are not a thief.
I don't think an unskilled, un-knowledgeable tech guy with only sales skills belongs in the e-bike business. Trying to earn a living on parts margin, while competing with China, is a very difficult way to go, unless you have huge volumes. Providing service to those with little skill, in any field, allows you to start small and grow. Just make sure you charge enough to survive the first year. If you are any good, you are not doing me or you a favor, if you go broke and aren't around to help me next year. I've guided several skilled tradesmen in a variety of businesses to become very profitable. They were working far too hard, for far too little.

One college kid started building systems in my basement @20 years ago. He did not believe my philosophy. He eventually had many employees and a large store. I have been sending him customers since I retired 8 years ago. Last week I went to him for parts. No parts, one employee and only doing service. No headache, 4 days per week and enjoying life.

Helping a neighbourhood kid is one thing, but helping some jackass professional for $20 an hour does not work either. There is nothing wrong with charging what the traffic will bear, NOTHING!
Good luck to all who can make an honest living with e-bikes. I think you are nuts, but I love you for doing it! :D :mrgreen:
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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by katou » Dec 12 2010 6:58pm

When I can get them, I sell cells. In the last six months, about $2400 worth. (so's you know I'm not just whistling Dixie)

Currently, I can get A123, but I hope to access a new source for Konions, and perhaps the Milwaukee Emolis eventually?

Why those kinds? Because of the pioneering work NOT DONE BY ME.

I give thanks and praise to all, but especially to Dr. Bass of course.

If I can secure a steady stream of batteries, I want to give back to ES.

I will host contests for free battery packs (say 48v, 10 ah). Maybe 1/6 months? I have a bunch of ideas of things I'd like to do.

Anyway, my point is:

If you want to sell here, you better have a good product, be super honest, and value your reputation here more than any individual sale.

Mess with ES and people will tear your reputation apart.

I just finished reading the "train wreck" and another thread where a vendor had a problem with SWBLUTO's comment (in a sig file for goodness sake).

BTW, anything I search for related to electric bikes on google, at least one ES link shows up in the top 10 or so. HIGH VISIBILITY.

Clearly, the opinions posted here are very important for those who would sell ebike merchandise.

I think that the De Facto standard is that knowledge is fine, pix or credit for other's builds is not.

(de facto because Greasypants wrote is book and no one seems to mind, but NS28 took pix and he got LOTS of attention)

Katou

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by TylerDurden » Dec 12 2010 7:06pm

katou wrote:(de facto because Greasypants wrote is book and no one seems to mind, but NS28 took pix and he got LOTS of attention)
IIRC, Greasy also used some material, but with permission. Doing it the right way works.
Have a Nice Day,

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 12 2010 7:36pm

Methods is just upset that the part of the video where the front wheel of his bike snaps off and he has to drag it back towards his house in pieces was edited out.

Neither Methods or myself believe in the concept of intellectual property rights, but I do believe that fair and accurate descriptions to selling a product are critical to enabling online commerce. I also think it's responsible and respectable to always at least cite the location or creator of IP when you choose to use it.

In this case, he listed photos of a well known bike that uses the front wheel as a battery storage place (dumbest idea ever), and features a rear hubmotor, and shows at as the item description photo for a 2wd bike kit.

9C motors (any wind type) will burn up at under 750watts continuous when un-vented. (Methy just smoked one until the solder holding the halls melted out on a ride we took together at night when it was below freezing out).

The video was obviously accelerated in parts to falsely represent the acceleration of the bike.

None of the pictures we photos of anything he is claiming to offer.

A number of other aspects are messed up as well.
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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by Spacey » Dec 12 2010 7:42pm

750 watts? I must be lucky he he... been pumping mine for months at 60 to 66v @ 17 to 30 amps 12miles there and 12 miles back......still rocking :P

Communication and non BS is paramount, word of mouth will affect a business better than any advertising so look after your customers. Been stung far too many times myself in the past.
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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 12 2010 7:55pm

We pump them with 5000w for short bursts, and they are fine.
Under 750w for an extended period melts them. Most hubs survive because peoples battery runs out before it melts.
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Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by John in CR » Dec 12 2010 8:15pm

If someone makes a fortune with info learned on ES, I hope they give us all a bunch of free stuff, plus additional rewards going to those whose specific ideas were used. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

It would be great if the big manufacturers have people spending time here, which can only lead to more rapid advancements and better more practical ebikes.

One thing I would have a real problem with would be anyone or any company who harvested ideas originated by members here, and turned around and filed patents on those ideas in an effort to prevent others from using them freely.

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by katou » Dec 12 2010 11:08pm

I wonder why makers of motors aren't here? Kit assemblers seem to show their faces from time to time.

Oh, I didn't mean to say that greasypants took stuff w/o permission. From what I've read, he consulted people first.

I wonder why we don't see his username around any more?

Katou

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by Samba » Dec 13 2010 12:49am

I don't see anything saying ES has any copyrights here - seems they want the opposite, to provide a forum but not have any responsibility (hence no ownership) for anything posted. So the individual posters are publishing and have copy rights. If someone posts a CAD, circuit design, picture or such you would need their permission before using it commercially.

If you posted info here that someone else then tried to patent, the postings here would be 'prior work'?

Knowledge though has to be used freely. No useful knowledge comes from here that isn't first integrated with all the related knowledge the reader took in before and after that reading. If you want protection from that you need to patent the idea. You'd want people in the industry to read here that a solution is needed for ______ and then provide it.

I hate that there are probably people reading to find out what specs they could fake or the outer bounds at which fake data could be look legitimate. But I don't see how you can share knowledge and then have any control over how it gets used.

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Re: Announcement of intent.

Post by deVries » Dec 13 2010 2:24am

Jeremy Harris wrote:My only problem with NS28 was the deceit. Using other members knowledge, photos and videos, making wild claims as to performance and then trying to claim the moral high ground on the basis of green issues and freedom from copyright restrictions seemed completely out of order to me.
I think NS28 needs to apologize to Doctorbass for making personal & false attacks against him and his uncle, which are lies.

This was AFTER Doctorbass was willing to give him a second chance & start over.
Doctorbass wrote:
Doctorbass wrote:I'm asking you all guys:

Should i remove this thread in exchange if their collaboration and respect for everyone? and give them a chance to restart in the right way since their attitude seem good to me now?
:?: :?: :?:

I don't like war and always give second chance for recover so? :|
Then, just a few hours later in two different posts novembersierra28 posts:
novembersierra28 wrote: Doctorbass gets his batteries 'STOLEN' from a battery service center by his uncle :shock: :shock: :shock:
AND, a short time later, again posts:
novembersierra28 wrote: DB 'steals' batteries from dewalt... I didn't start a thread up against that... that's a big nono :!:
These lies prove this guy is emotionally unbalanced & is a flame-out... no business doing any kind of eBike business on ES, imo.

Banishment or probation should be on the "to do list", unless 'novembersierra28' apologizes for his foul behavior, imho.

Anyway, this person is highly unethical & has falsely & personally attacked one of the highest respected members on ES, Doctorbass! :evil: That's "over the top" & painfully embarrassing. :oops:

Obviously, one prerequisite before going into ES business should be good character with honest intent & honest proven service over a period of time lasting many years of that kind of commitment...

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by deVries » Dec 13 2010 2:34am

Now, here is the truth about Doctorbass:
Doctorbass wrote:I paid 2500 $ of ebike equipment to my uncle and few of his colleague to in thanks for these battery!

So these battery are not free for me.. and i'm glad to have pay that to them.. they know about my future electric car project! and they are glad to supply me these battery and to avoid them to pay for sending them to the recycling cause the process for recycling is complicated and require expensive equipment.

That give a second life for these battery and avoid sending alot of great cells to the recycling and destroy them! :shock: Doc

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Re: Should knowledge from here be freely used for profit?

Post by amberwolf » Dec 13 2010 3:04am

I see no problem with any one using knowledge gained from ES for their own profit, but using other people's content without asking and gaining permission to do so is not right. Copyright or no, it's still just good karma, if you want to think of it that way, to ask before using something, and to only use it the way you said you would when asking.

Of course, with the ridiculous specs on the recently-discussed ebay ad, I'm pretty sure few here would have given that permission (I wouldn't have, knowing it would be used for that).

Knowledge in itself *should* be shared--it's the best way to both increase it's spread and to increase it's purity (signal-to-noise ratio, etc.). But knowledge freely shared is not the same thing as taking a creation or representations of said creation and plastering them on things that aren't them, or using them for profit. That is what I don't agree with.

FWIW, it makes me regret helping people when stuff like this recent misuse happens. :( Makes me a lot less likely to help the next person with their pet project. :evil:

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