Please help me electrify my trike...

Hello all...

I have an Actionbent T1 Tadpole trike I want to electrify. The trike has a 700c rear wheel, and a 27 speed gearset on it.

I have a 20 mile round trip commute, and I hope to use this year round (studded tires when applicable) to replace my car (I still have a truck for longer trips). So weather proofing is important. I'm figuring on running a 15-20amp 48V battery.

My budget for this is $1300, + whatever I can beg/borrow/steal or + whatever I can sell out of my bicycle stable.

So far, I'm interested in the 9C kit from ebikes.ca, even if it requires a change to a 21 speed drivetrain. I'm interested due to the low price/noise, better water proofing vs a cyclone. That and the kit comes with a cycle analyst, which saves me from ordering one on top of another motor kit.

I am interested in RC, but my concerns are exceeding my budget as well as the systems all weather reliability.

That being said, with my trike having a 700c rear wheel, putting anything on top of the rack GREATLY affects it's center of gravity. Which brings me to this, can I power a 9C system off of RC batteries? If I go with the 9C I'd like to go with the 35amp controller, but so far batteries such as Ping or even EPS ratings of 1-2C seem like they would struggle with a constant 35amp.

If an RC battery is ok for a 9C motor, that brings me to this:

1) If I take 8 3S 2.2amp/hr batteries rated @ 11.1v, and wire them up into two parallel packs of 4, connected in series, I will end up with a 44.4V 16.6amp/hr pack, yes? Would the resulting pack be a 24S2P?

2) I'm aware these Lipro batteries require proper care and feeding. However the chargers I'm finding don't go past 6S batteries. How would I properly charge the pack?

The info I've gathered on the RC battery setup is primarly from here: http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/rc_drive/tutorial.htm


This pic should show the limited places I have to mount batteries.

Welcome to the Sphere, there are several recumbent riders here who should be able to assist you with your project. I have no experience with that type of bike. I have studied RC tech here, and general Ebike info as well. As a beginner, I would recomend utilizeing the complete kit from a reputable retailer like, http://www.ebikes.ca/index.shtml http://www.conhismotor.com/ http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=catalog&parent=1&pg=1 http://www.hightekbikes.com/aotema-hub-motor-conversion-kit.html http://ampedbikes.com/complete.html.
All of these systems are complete, basically plug and play setups. Is your bike aluminum or steel? Yes, you can power a ride like yours on LIPO, but those batteries demand respect, or your fire insurance will get a test.

1) If I take 8 3S 2.2amp/hr batteries rated @ 11.1v, and wire them up into two parallel packs of 4, connected in series, I will end up with a 44.4V 16.6amp/hr pack, yes? Would the resulting pack be a 24S2P?

Two packs of four is eight, not 35. You need to watch your math here. If you screw up with lipo, you will have expensive problems, and risk personnal injury. Why do you want to use 11.1v 2.2 AH batteries? Two packs of four batteries wired in parallel each, wired in series, is only a 22 volt 9 amp pack. Not nearly enough to cover a 20 mile ride, let alone on a heavy bike. Show us the batteries you are talking about. The 11.1 volt batteries I am aware of are 3 cell or 3s1p. Useing those batteries you would need four packs in series to hit 44 volts. You would need ten parrallel batteries per pack to get to 20 AH. That's a total of 44 batteries. Unless you want the award for most complicated pack wireing in existance, you might want to consider a larger battery. And remember, one mistake with these, can ruin your day. I'm not trying to scare you off, just prevent harm, to you and your wallet. Read, http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19956
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9170 Chargers like this one, http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6609 cover a wide range of cells, but require a power supply or car battery to run. RC battery tech is predicated on the design premise that you are useing it in RC vehicles. They aren't designed for Ebike use. Most people have had to put a lot of work into building a lipo setup that cuts a fine line between getting the power they need, and minimizeing maintenance [chargeing] hassles. Bulk chargeing, is doable, but I will pass on that, as I have no experience there, and some consider it dangerous, as you fly blind doing it. I hope this helps. Good luck.
Brian L.

This is why I'm posting these questions, I'm reading about 4 different tabs related to LIPO saftey, wiring, & charging now. (so much for working )

I may have screwed up my terms, or perhaps I'm way off in the dark. I was talking about the 3S1P packs, rated @ 2200mAh each @ 11.1V. I was thinking combining them into two packs of 4 to get 2 packs @ 44V - would that not be 8800mah per pack of 4? I'm now guessing it's just 44.4V @ 2200 mAh, or 44V @ 4400 mAh with the second set of 4. . That makes more sense now that I go back to the original link I posted. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The trike is steel, low-grade steel at that. In it's current condition I'm guessing it weighs in around 45lbs. The prebuilt LifeP04 batteries in the 48v 20 amp/hr range are around 26lbs, and with the weight of the 9C motor + controller I was hoping to avoid going into the 100+ lbs category. Not to mention the issue of mounting 26lbs of large battery down low.

I'm not afraid of wiring, and I'm (now) well aware of the danger involved with these batteries, I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of this before I start ordering parts.

I ride a trike and you really want to mount batteries under the seat if possible. The handling is greatly improved over putting them in the rear rack. I have a 50 kilo rear rack but when I put my 20 lb Ping or even my 15 lb Bosch pack there the handling really sucked! Lower and centered is definitely better. I use a Lexan rack that I made with a split Ping that I rebuilt from a brick. Ping will make split battereis if you ask him. My next battery will be Lipo (12s 2 or 3p) but still mounted low. Feel free to ask as many questions as U need to! Actionbent makes decent trikes at good prices! Check out how FFR trikes mounts theirs!
otherDoc

docnjoj said:

I ride a trike and you really want to mount batteries under the seat if possible. The handling is greatly improved over putting them in the rear rack. I have a 50 kilo rear rack but when I put my 20 lb Ping or even my 15 lb Bosch pack there the handling really sucked! Lower and centered is definitely better. I use a Lexan rack that I made with a split Ping that I rebuilt from a brick. Ping will make split battereis if you ask him. My next battery will be Lipo (12s 2 or 3p) but still mounted low. Feel free to ask as many questions as U need to! Actionbent makes decent trikes at good prices! Check out how FFR trikes mounts theirs!
otherDoc

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I've seen the FFR mount - that is a very nice solution. I wasn't aware Ping would split packs. Although I think I'd rather go from EPS if I end up going that route. Thinking I might be able to make triangular box for each side, either out of lexan or wood, to go behind the seat to continue past the sides of the rear wheel if need be. I would really like a battery that can handle 35amps continuous though, which most pre-built ones can't seem to handle.

I do like the trike, and my budget for the e-build is over double what I paid for it.

I do like the trike, and my budget for the e-build is over double what I paid for it.

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Yeah welcome to the world of Ebikes! The boxes sound fine. Just be aware that no one can see you on a low trike! If you are going to commute you must make yourself visible. A roll bar perhaps?
otherDoc

Well I plan on running plenty of lights off of the battery once it's all setup. Either automotive driving lights or magicshine's if I can find a dc-dc converter to 8.3v max.

Although so long as I stick to the speed limit, I can take a cycling path almost all the way to work. Only two stoplights in 10 miles.

So, now that I'm caught up, here is the new plan.
8 of these http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9176, wired into two 44.4v 10amp packs, serial connected for a total of 44.4v and 20A/hrs. I'm thinking it will be easier to mount two packs like this balance wise
Am I more along the right lines now?

That's better, I believe that's a 12s4p pack split for mounting. With a 24 inch rear 9C 2807 you should see better than 20 mph, for at least ten miles. Have you learned about bulk chargeing yet? I would still just use two of these.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11170
It means disassembling the pack for chargeing, but you see what's happening. Mabye a smaller controller would give a ping battery an easier life. You would be able to charge the pack on the bike, but you would need to pedal once in a while, on hills and for take offs to conserve power. You should get a controller with the Cycle analyst port, and the CA with the dual Cycleluminator LED lights. Expensive but good!. My 2 cents.
Brian L.

For battery mounting on my T1 trike I used heavy duty steel/plastic coated bicycle baskets, one on each side, meant for on top of a rear rack, with one side cut away lengthwise on each basket, so a battery can be "clicked/snugged in" down and or sideways into the basket and then held in place with self-adhering Velcro, or tied in with a polyester cord. The remaining side of the basket can easily be pipe clamped to the main frame with two or three clamps, with the top outside basket corner to the front affixed to the seat frame (I have a mesh seat) with a clamp or steel zip ties, and the outside rear top corner of basket suspended with a cord down to it from the frame. It is very secure, right under the seat, nice and low, and moderately light. A 48V 16Ahr Ping battery in a tackle box (Plano 1412), clicks into the basket perfectly, and contains padding around the battery, and a non-padded cavity around the BMS. I open the lid of the box, when charging, as well. The setup can be realized in just a few minutes, and is very secure and convenient. The reason the baskets were cutaway is that they were a bit too wide, sticking out from the sides of the bike just a bit too much, so I took about 3 inches off the sides of each basket. Finding some narrower metal baskets (heavy duty types) would be ideal, and they wouldn't have to be cut away. The baskets are securely attached to the frame on the inside and suspended at two points from the top outer corners. There is just a slight bit of flex to the baskets too, which absorbs some shock to the batteries. I think it is a good system.

RallySTX said:

That's better, I believe that's a 12s4p pack split for mounting. With a 24 inch rear 9C 2807 you should see better than 20 mph, for at least ten miles. Have you learned about bulk chargeing yet? I would still just use two of these.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11170
It means disassembling the pack for chargeing, but you see what's happening. Mabye a smaller controller would give a ping battery an easier life. You would be able to charge the pack on the bike, but you would need to pedal once in a while, on hills and for take offs to conserve power. You should get a controller with the Cycle analyst port, and the CA with the dual Cycleluminator LED lights. Expensive but good!. My 2 cents.
Brian L.

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A 24 inch wheel? My rear is a 700c. Justin @ E-bike states that the 9c stock setup isn't the greatest, and that I should probably have it built into a new rim. If that's the case I may go with the faster 2806 wind and have a shop build it up when it arrives. Using ebike.ca's simulator, a 2806 wind in a 700c wheel @ 48V, it's showing everything coming closer to 40mph, starting with about 50ft/lbs of torque. I'm hoping with pedaling and having to keep my speed down, I should more than be able to get the 20 mile range I'm looking for.

I'm thinking I'll be going with the "Balance charge each cell" method before assembly, then hopefully will be able to bulk charge during the week, breaking the packs down on the weekends to balance. I'm still wrapping my head around the wiring solution for splitting the packs up though. The good news is that these 20amps/hours, assuming I don't blow them up, will weigh about 15lbs less than a comparable LifePo4 battery.

Also, if you look at the specs for the ping 48v 20Ah battery, it's rated at a continuous rate of 20amps (30 max), so even the 25amp controller they bundle with the 9C is pushing a ping. All of the e-bike.ca 9C kits include a direct plug cycle analyst too. Part of why the 9C kit is so appealing really. I can use the cycle analyst as a low voltage cutoff while on the bike yes? If I got cycle luminators, I'd get them at a later point and wire them directly into the wiring harness. Wiring them into the CA won't do near as much good on the trike as it would an upright bicycle.

The one thing I'm now wondering is how to handle regen with LiPo battery packs. The 6S batteries I posted above have a 2C max charge rating, and I'm not sure how much current a 2806 wind can potentially output in regen mode. Let alone how to manage it so it doesn't throw my LIPO packs out of whack.

@chvidgov.bc.ca - I've seen your setup before. I'm also Corkscrew on bikeforums.net - you sent me some info on your setup last week I believe. I like your basket solution, but I'm not sure it can be applied the same way here, mainly due to my fiberglass seat. Where your mesh seat has it's supports welded to the frame. I'm thinking two of the aluminum mouser boxes should be able to be mounted to either side of the rear triangle if I go with LiPo, and would probably place the controller behind the seat on the rack supports, hopefully it would get enough air flow there.

Corkscrew,
I like your idea about mounting your batteries. If you run into problems you might consider what I have done on my pocket catrike. I built 2 boxes made from star board. They are mounted on the chainstays. The bottom of the boxes are about 3 1/2" above the ground. I effectly improved the CG to better than a new trike.

Good luck

I guess that's what I get for working from memory. Ok, you want perfection, you got it. I don't do trikes. Good luck.
Brian L.

I just noticed that your trike has a steel frame and that is really good for a hub motor. I have an alternative battery to my 36 volt Ping and it is a 54 volt Bosch tool battery. With that and a 9C I can top out at about 24 mph with a 20 inch rear wheel. I think you wil have a problem off the line with the 2806 and the 700C wheel. The torque will not be great. You will however have a higher top speed. Don't forget torque arms whichever system you use.
otherDoc

ebent said:

Corkscrew,
I like your idea about mounting your batteries. If you run into problems you might consider what I have done on my pocket catrike. I built 2 boxes made from star board. They are mounted on the chainstays. The bottom of the boxes are about 3 1/2" above the ground. I effectly improved the CG to better than a new trike.

Good luck

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Sounds neat! Any chance you have some photos or a build thread to share?

I have some friends that work in an autobody shop, one of them offered to help me make a custom battery box, so I might explore that option once I can order parts.

I just noticed that your trike has a steel frame and that is really good for a hub motor. I have an alternative battery to my 36 volt Ping and it is a 54 volt Bosch tool battery. With that and a 9C I can top out at about 24 mph with a 20 inch rear wheel. I think you wil have a problem off the line with the 2806 and the 700C wheel. The torque will not be great. You will however have a higher top speed. Don't forget torque arms whichever system you use.

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That's odd to me. The ebike.ca simulator only shows about a 1-3 ft/lbs of torque loss going from the 2807 to the 2806 wind, but almost a 5 mph gain on top speed, and efficiency. Meanwhile the 2805 hub raises my top speed to about 48mph, but drops the torque to about 48 also.

I asked Justin @ ebike.ca about the rear torque arm - he said it's not required on a steel frame such as mine?

i have an XPR Arrow [also built by tw bents taiwan] i am using a puma geared motor, laced into 26" rhino lite rim by john holmes... 36v, 20 amp lifepo4 battery[foxxpower..too muich voltage sag...6 plus volts ]... 36v, 35 amp infineon controller[ebikes.ca]... speed 40kph...range 70k,with some pedaling...just bought an A 123,36v,20amp battery fron cell-man... havent tried the new battery yet

I have alot of experience building electric tadpoles. I can give you whatever info you need regarding handling and what-not. I am also familiar with AB, though not with their trikes.

I would steer you toward a hub motor to start with because they are easy to deal with. Lipo is actually a good choice because the new chemistries are very tolerant these days. You can bulk charge. There are 12S charger out there. But, it is good to gain as much knowledge as you can about lipo to be sure you know what you have.

PM me if you would like my phone number (are you in the US?) and we can talk directly.

Matt

That's odd to me. The ebike.ca simulator only shows about a 1-3 ft/lbs of torque loss going from the 2807 to the 2806 wind, but almost a 5 mph gain on top speed, and efficiency. Meanwhile the 2805 hub raises my top speed to about 48mph, but drops the torque to about 48 also.

I asked Justin @ ebike.ca about the rear torque arm - he said it's not required on a steel frame such as mine?
corkscrew

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Well Justin is the man when it comes to electric bikes. I have personally spun 3 motors in steel dropouts and not one since I started using torque arms. Perhaps the old steel suspension arms were of poor quality? My wife has a delta trike and we use 2 torque arms on her front steel fork! Better safe than sorry.

Matt (Recumpence) is a world class machinist and makes some great products!
I only use 20"wheels and the 2807 really gets off the line fast, with wheelspin, if I want. As you would expect the top speed is a bit limited but I prefer the torque when getting away from stop signs or crossing busy intersections.
otherDoc

docnjoj said:

Well Justin is the man when it comes to electric bikes. I have personally spun 3 motors in steel dropouts and not one since I started using torque arms. Perhaps the old steel suspension arms were of poor quality? My wife has a delta trike and we use 2 torque arms on her front steel fork! Better safe than sorry.

Matt (Recumpence) is a world class machinist and makes some great products!
I only use 20"wheels and the 2807 really gets off the line fast, with wheelspin, if I want. As you would expect the top speed is a bit limited but I prefer the torque when getting away from stop signs or crossing busy intersections.
otherDoc

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Were all your motor spin outs in a front fork? I'll try and track down a rear torque arm anyway. I have to over engineer things now to help prevent my own idiocy later down the road.

I revisited the simulator just now - I think I will stick with the 2807, the power line is much smoother of a drop, and it still puts me with a top speed of 35ish on a 44.4v battery. I bet you beat most people off the line with a 2807 in a 20" wheel.

I have alot of experience building electric tadpoles. I can give you whatever info you need regarding handling and what-not. I am also familiar with AB, though not with their trikes.

I would steer you toward a hub motor to start with because they are easy to deal with. Lipo is actually a good choice because the new chemistries are very tolerant these days. You can bulk charge. There are 12S charger out there. But, it is good to gain as much knowledge as you can about lipo to be sure you know what you have.

PM me if you would like my phone number (are you in the US?) and we can talk directly.

Matt

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Yeah, the more I obsess over this project the hub motor keeps coming back up, as it seems better sealed than most other options, and I don't want a fair weather trike. I'll PM you.

So to the other trikers - what's your preferred throttle? I *hated* the twist shifters that my trike came with. Are the thumb throttles easy to use on the vertical handlebars?

i use a thumb throttle on my tadpole....had a piece of aluminum rod 11/2" long tapped for 1/4 ,20 bolt and machined to fit the throttle diameter and the curve of a hose clamp...a hole was drilled in the hose clampfor the bolt and attached to the throttle...hose clampe sc rewed to the upright steering control... works very well

Were all your motor spin outs in a front fork? I'll try and track down a rear torque arm anyway. I have to over engineer things now to help prevent my own idiocy later down the road.


Yeah, the more I obsess over this project the hub motor keeps coming back up, as it seems better sealed than most other options, and I don't want a fair weather trike. I'll PM you.

So to the other trikers - what's your preferred throttle? I *hated* the twist shifters that my trike came with. Are the thumb throttles easy to use on the vertical handlebars?

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[/quote]


Luckily all my spinouts were rear ones. One front one can ruin your whole day
I use a thumb throttle slightly modified by cutting off the horn where the wires stick out and smoothing wire entry with epoxy putty. I hate twist throttles and twist shifters and never use them unless I modify with a thumb lever from and old headlight mount. Dogman has a good trick for that. For shifters nothing beats bar end ones.
otherDoc

Eeek, well I will certainly locate a torque arm or two.

I'm having a hard time picturing how you guys are mounting the thumb throttles. I'll search for Dogman's mod when I get some more time online.

So would I be able to bulk charge with an Icharger1010b? (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6609) I like the multi balance cables they offer for those chargers. When balance charging a 20A/h 48V pack of 8 6s 5a/h cells, would i be able to balance the the individual sides of parallel 22.2V 20A/H with one of these cables? Or would it be smarter to break it down farther to balance charge? http://www.progressiverc.com/index.php/parallel-6x-balance-adapter.html

I'm hoping to order parts tomorrow. Might have to wait till ebike.ca gets the 40amp controllers in though.

Once the batteries arrived and I have a better idea of the sizes (I'm a visual person lol), I'm hoping to take the bike to my friends shop. Sounds like a stainless steel battery box might be in the works.

Does anyone have thoughts on Lipo and regen? According to ebike.ca the 20C output 2C recharge pack is well within the regen means. I just was wondering if anyone had anything else to add? Here is ebike.ca's page on regen: http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_controllers.php - I suppose it would just be like a momentary bulk charge?

Well ok - money was deposited this morning.

Already ordered $400 of LIPO packs from the Hobbyking USA warehouse. Only $.01 shipping.

Put in an e-mail order for the 9C kit + Thumb Throttle + 40amp Controller + Large Screen Cycle Analyst and 11-32 8 speed freewheel with spacer. Figuring should be ok to cold space my steel frame a few MM for clearance purposes. If so I still have some 8 speed Shimano Bar End shifters that I can use instead of the 9 Speeds I currently have installed.

Talking with Gary (GGoodrum on the site) about getting his "EOS1420iNET3+12s Charging Harness Kit + 2x6s LiPo LVC Kit Combo" whenever it comes back into stock. That will give me cell level LVC protection at the very least. Also like that I'd be able to balance charge the whole pack at once. Meaning the only bulk charging I'd deal with is during regen mode when using the motor to brake.

I suppose it's all coming together....

]

Corkscrew,
Here are the pics you asked for.

Thanks for the pics! Looks like a very sturdy setup.

Well still waiting on the paypal invoice from ebikes.ca, but they just got the 40amp controllers in today. In the mean time, my batteries are packed and about to ship, I've ordered a universal torque arm from e-bikekit.com, and have 3 8 speed chains coming in from Jensen USA.

Once I hear back from GGoodrum about the chargers, I should be set.

Corkscrew.

FWIW, I have done something similar - powering a tadpole trike with a hub motor, using LiPos, powering 12V lights and accessories using DC converters, etc. All this is documented on BentRider in my thread from last year. You need to join to see the pics:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=53793&highlight=electric+trice

Since then I have also converted another trike and got some experience with a BionX system...