Please don't let this happen!

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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JennyB   1 kW

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Please don't let this happen!

Post by JennyB » Apr 08 2011 6:13pm

Our *****in' Northern Ireland Assembly wants to make helmets mandatory for all cyclists! :evil:

I know there are situations where I just wouldn't ride without a helmet, but this is just STUPID!!!!

If you agree and live in the UK, please sign this petition.

If you live in the UK and don't agree, please read the petition anyway, consider the arguments, and do what you think best.

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Lessss   10 MW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by Lessss » Apr 08 2011 7:13pm

Your F#$%#@. Once politicians get on the safety kick to look like they are doing something you become a slave. Don't kill the bill amend it to require PEDESTRIAN HELMETS and Car helmets. There are better statistics on lives saved for these than for bike helmet.
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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by wineboyrider » Apr 08 2011 8:36pm

Your F#$%#@. Once politicians get on the safety kick to look like they are doing something you become a slave. Don't kill the bill amend it to require PEDESTRIAN HELMETS and Car helmets. There are better statistics on lives saved for these than for bike helmet.
Absolutely true! Cyclists who don't wear helmets have less accidents and therefore less injuries. There are lies damn lies and statistics as Mark Twain said... :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
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shorza   1 kW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by shorza » Apr 08 2011 8:42pm

Meh... it's been compulsory here in Australia for over 20 years. I'm sure it's saved many a life and saved millions in public health care.
I understand your anger if you don't have pubic health care.

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Lessss   10 MW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by Lessss » Apr 08 2011 8:48pm

Actually bicycle helmet performance in accidents is highly debatable. The testing they perform and the standard they mus meet are pathetic and don't reflect real bicycle crashes at all.
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AussieJester   100 GW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by AussieJester » Apr 08 2011 8:51pm

Here we go again :roll: another bicycle helmet "debate" thread....

@shorza +1

*un-subscribed*

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by wineboyrider » Apr 08 2011 9:17pm

Meh... it's been compulsory here in Australia for over 20 years. I'm sure it's saved many a life and saved millions in public health care.
I understand your anger if you don't have pubic health care.
Yep. And now we understand a little bit better how socialism takes away freedom! Socialism sucks!
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chvidgov.bc.ca   10 kW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by chvidgov.bc.ca » Apr 08 2011 11:39pm

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Last edited by chvidgov.bc.ca on Apr 08 2011 11:44pm, edited 1 time in total.

chvidgov.bc.ca   10 kW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by chvidgov.bc.ca » Apr 08 2011 11:42pm

Ooohhh socialism sucks - you mean the "rules of the road"? All those socialistic stop signs too. Perhaps we can send those to the camps.

@shorza +1

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by Lessss » Apr 08 2011 11:57pm

It doesn't surprise me that Ireland is near the last civilized place to get bike Helmets laws. They are usually pretty good at smelling a political scam. The Scam here is someone will profit in the sales of bike helmets and then the gov will profit in fines for not having a helmet.

h
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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by Hillhater » Apr 09 2011 12:17am

I dislike wearing a helmet (and seatbelts actually), infact i guess i dont like being told what to do or wear generally.:evil:
.. but if you have witnessed an experienced mt biker cartwheel down 3 flights of steps , ..and walk away wearing a split helmet.....
.. or had a friend , family member, or (god forbid) child, with permanent serious head injuries ,... then you will understand why i wear one !
They wont prevent all injuries, they may not even be very effective, ..but even a little protection is better than none at all.
Remember , a lot of cycling accidents are not caused by the rider, but by some other idiot !
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Zoot Katz   1 MW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by Zoot Katz » Apr 09 2011 12:26am

Mandatory protective headgear has been on the books here in British Columbia since 1996.

Guy Chapman has lots of experience with the helmet debate in the UK.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/Cy ... h_evidence

True believers are unlikely to consider facts. Discussion is generally pointless.
Good luck with your petition.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by dogman dan » Apr 09 2011 6:41am

Yeah , here we go again. I don't think mandatory is a good idea, just for nanny state, personal freedom type stuff. We have helmet laws in my state, but they only apply to minors. I can't remember the last time they were enforced much. You get an extra ticket if you get in a wreck maybe.

But my mind is made up. I have destroyed a bike helmet, going 15 mph, and would likely be sitting here drooling now if not just plain DOA if I hadn't had it on. It was the worst case deal, where my temple struck the curb edge. I've also put serious wear and tear on motorcycle helmets, the 50 mph headstand for instance being the worst one. In dirt thank god, I plowed a furrow before the cartwheels started.

At some point of course, nothing protects you enough. People that ride careless because they have a helmet on are just stupid. They are dead meat in any situation. But you might ride faster, with care, when wearing body armor and helmet. I sure do.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by MadRhino » Apr 09 2011 8:12am

I'm at both ends of it: I sometimes wear full protection for fast and hard dirt riding, and sometimes wear no protection at all for fun rides where I speed only when trails are nice.

In any case, I would not want the law to interfere in my liberty of judgement when it comes to my own safety. With socialist mind like that, they'll soon force you to wear a condom to f... your own wife. :mrgreen:
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by wineboyrider » Apr 09 2011 8:20am

Ooohhh socialism sucks - you mean the "rules of the road"? All those socialistic stop signs too. Perhaps we can send those to the camps.
It's my head not yours. Now if I get a baseball bat and hit your head with your bicycle helmet on then it's a crime.. :shock: :shock:
Ever been to a roller skating or ice skating rink. There are no stop signs and yet people seem to be just fine. In fact, stop signs can cause a lot more accidents if they are in the wrong place. Germans hate stop signs as a general rule. English speaking people tend to love them. Driving in Germany is much more efficient, because you can haul ass and only stop once or twice if your lucky...?
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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by AppleTown » Apr 09 2011 9:54am

wineboyrider wrote:
Ooohhh socialism sucks - you mean the "rules of the road"? All those socialistic stop signs too. Perhaps we can send those to the camps.
It's my head not yours. Now if I get a baseball bat and hit your head with your bicycle helmet on then it's a crime.. :shock: :shock:
Ever been to a roller skating or ice skating rink. There are no stop signs and yet people seem to be just fine. In fact, stop signs can cause a lot more accidents if they are in the wrong place. Germans hate stop signs as a general rule. English speaking people tend to love them. Driving in Germany is much more efficient, because you can haul ass and only stop once or twice if your lucky...?
Of course, Germany also has one of the most extensive driver's/rider's training and testing requirements along with full enforcement of an extensive suite of laws. I have several relatives who got their car and moto licenses in Germany and know the requirements well. Even the most stringent training and testing requirements, along with the most stringent vehicle roadworthy requirements, in the US are nothing near the German requirements. The socialist-dog-whistle crowd in the US always points to autobahn speeds and such as some German land of miracle roads. But they seem to forget that things work well there because more people buy into a system as community member instead of looking out only for themselves or gaming the system.

Personally, I appreciate anything that legally defines a bicycle's right to the road (both pedal and electric, and motorcycles and scooters as well), because too many people in the US view two wheeled travel as merely kid's stuff or adult toys instead of a valid, acceptable, wide ranging form of transportation. America has an incredible history of bicycles, two wheeled travel, and electricity (from the Wright Bros. to Telsa to Harley-Davidson) and electric bikes are pretty damn patriotic IMHO.

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by wineboyrider » Apr 09 2011 1:40pm

Of course, Germany also has one of the most extensive driver's/rider's training and testing requirements along with full enforcement of an extensive suite of laws. I have several relatives who got their car and moto licenses in Germany and know the requirements well. Even the most stringent training and testing requirements, along with the most stringent vehicle roadworthy requirements, in the US are nothing near the German requirements. The socialist-dog-whistle crowd in the US always points to autobahn speeds and such as some German land of miracle roads. But they seem to forget that things work well there because more people buy into a system as community member instead of looking out only for themselves or gaming the system.

Personally, I appreciate anything that legally defines a bicycle's right to the road (both pedal and electric, and motorcycles and scooters as well), because too many people in the US view two wheeled travel as merely kid's stuff or adult toys instead of a valid, acceptable, wide ranging form of transportation. America has an incredible history of bicycles, two wheeled travel, and electricity (from the Wright Bros. to Telsa to Harley-Davidson) and electric bikes are pretty damn patriotic IMHO.
Having lived in Germany for 2 years I learned to appreciate different points of view. My wife and children are also German citizens and I know the country like the back of my hand and as my second homeland. My point about speed limits and lies damn lies and statistics is that in Teutonic land the people usually make laws based on fact and safety as well as efficiency. Safety is important yes, but so is efficient travel. Now back to the post. As a libertarian I think it's a great idea to wear a helmet, but I also think it's a great idea to own a gun. So if I proposed a law that required you to own a gun would you be in? It's only for your safety of course.
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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by MikeFairbanks » Apr 09 2011 1:57pm

shorza wrote:Meh... it's been compulsory here in Australia for over 20 years. I'm sure it's saved many a life and saved millions in public health care.
I understand your anger if you don't have pubic health care.
That's it right there.

In the USA we have free emergency healthcare, to a degree. Nobody will leave you bleeding on the side of the road. They bring you in to the hospital, fix you up, and then give you a huge bill. But you won't go to jail for not paying it. If you don't have the money you don't have it. The hospital writes it off and the taxpayers pick up much of it.

Helmet laws aren't about safety. They're about financial liability. It's the same with seatbelt laws.
Stay frosty

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by wineboyrider » Apr 09 2011 2:04pm

In the USA we have free emergency healthcare, to a degree. Nobody will leave you bleeding on the side of the road. They bring you in to the hospital, fix you up, and then give you a huge bill. But you won't go to jail for not paying it. If you don't have the money you don't have it. The hospital writes it off and the taxpayers pick up much of it.

Helmet laws aren't about safety. They're about financial liability. It's the same with seatbelt laws.
I agree. But, I should be able to buy extra insurance so I don't have to wear a seat belt, helmet or anything else I don't like. All risk can be insured for an amount.
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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by AppleTown » Apr 09 2011 3:20pm

wineboyrider wrote: Having lived in Germany for 2 years I learned to appreciate different points of view. My wife and children are also German citizens and I know the country like the back of my hand and as my second homeland. My point about speed limits and lies damn lies and statistics is that in Teutonic land the people usually make laws based on fact and safety as well as efficiency. Safety is important yes, but so is efficient travel. Now back to the post. As a libertarian I think it's a great idea to wear a helmet, but I also think it's a great idea to own a gun. So if I proposed a law that required you to own a gun would you be in? It's only for your safety of course.
First, you'd be a pretty hypocritical Libertarian to propose a law like. But other Libertarians than you have long supported restrictions to free travel, health choice restrictions and the like, so I wouldn't be overly surprised by a so-called defender of liberty supporting such a law. The so-called Libertarians near you in Catron county NM not too long ago proposed mandatory gun ownership, ie. forcing people not to have free choice.

Second, you phrased things in a way that appears to assume I don't already own a gun. I find that somewhat insulting. But, more importantly, if a law like that was on the books I'd be in full support of requiring proper training and use of mandatory guns. I'd be in full support of requiring training and minimum standards of care as I am in full support of those requirements for things like concealed carry and hunter safety training that we already have in the US.*

I do agree with you about efficiency and how many things over in Germany do take efficiency into account as opposed to just tradition or safety. But efficiency standards are inherently anti-Libretarian. Part of efficiency is getting people to do what's best for the common good rather than just themselves. For example, its safer for me if the street in front of my house here in the US had a 5mph speed limit, had speed bumps every 10 feet, was lined with photo radar, had stop signs every block, banned trucks over 5 tons, and didn't allow public parking. But the street is there for not just my safety. So it has a 40mph limit, allows vehicles of all types, only has a stoplight every mile or more and is fully open to the public for a myriad of uses that allow a certain degree of risk. That's efficiency and Socialism.

*Edit: Also, I didn't even get into the fallacy of your statement that mandatory gun ownership is for my safety. Please present some evidence that gun ownership increases safety. There is lots of evidence against that concept.

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JennyB   1 kW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by JennyB » Apr 09 2011 4:25pm

OK. cool it, guys!

If you aren't in the UK you can't sign the petition anyway. Not even if you are in the Republic of Ireland and this is going to affect you if ever you cross the border. CTC and Sustrans, who sponsored this petition, have done more than anyone to support cycling as transport in the UK generally, and I trust their judgement on this matter much more than the folks on the hill up at Stormont.

Thanks to anyone who has signed, BTW.

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by knoxie » Apr 09 2011 4:56pm

Hi

Yes I will sign it for sure I think it should be about personal choice, however there are some ebikes on this forum that hit motorcycle speeds where wearing a motorbike helmet let alone a cycle helmet should be considered but not mandatory I suppose you could figure you are already breaking the law with your e-bike so why would it matter?

They are already clamping down on our personal freedoms enough, I always wear a helmet and it has saved my head on 2 occasions, I would be more happy if they started to enforce the existing rules though like pulling cyclists who ride with no lights or BMXers with no brakes etc, or e-bike with too much power :lol: :wink:
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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by Gordo » Apr 09 2011 6:02pm

Zoot Katz wrote:Mandatory protective headgear has been on the books here in British Columbia since 1996.

Guy Chapman has lots of experience with the helmet debate in the UK.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/Cy ... h_evidence

True believers are unlikely to consider facts. Discussion is generally pointless.
Good luck with your petition.
Zoot;
I began wearing a helmet in 1958. After bouncing my noggin off a building, trees, the road, ice and cars I have no opinion on the value of protective head gear for others. I'm still functioning at a slightly higher level than suggested, if I had not been wearing a helmet. There are so many choices of helmets out there from the featherweight beanies to $1000 and beyond full face. Let people shave their heads and get a helmet tattooed on, if they like. Just don't expect the taxpayers of your country to look after what is left of you after an accident.

As for condoms, they should be mandatory for those who choose not to wear helmets. Anything to reduce our medical costs.

May the hand of your God grab the handle of your kettle and give it a good shake. Your helmet is probably stronger than most.
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Rin   10 mW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by Rin » Apr 09 2011 6:11pm

As hard headed as the Irish are I wouldn't think they would need helmets.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Please don't let this happen!

Post by MadRhino » Apr 09 2011 7:36pm

Gordo wrote:Anything to reduce our medical costs.
With a mind like that, What should we do with those who eat fast food, or smoke, or drive a car?

Only thing worse than one who wants me bad, is one who wants me good by any means.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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