Hey, this battery looks pretty cool. Anyone know about it?

MikeFairbanks

100 kW
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
1,385
Location
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
A friend of mine told me about this battery (as I'm trying to get off my lead addiction ;) ).

This thing is 6 pounds and looks really promising.

What do you think?

Link (scroll down a tad to see the battery): http://www.ampedbikes.com/tubebattery.html

Thanks for the advice, as usual. Looks like a good value/construction.
 
Looks to be li-mn or some lipo due to it's weight.

Lower weight than hobbyking lipo!!!

I looked for tests too... can't find any.. even on the dang ampedbikes board.
 
Yep, that is very neat and much better than your heavy lead setup. Prepare for lithium addiction. :wink:
 
That should work for you. My previous advice about battery size remains 15 ah. But that mainly applies to lifepo4, while this is believed to be limn. That's a very good chemistry too, and also used in the Ebikekit batteries.

Not a lot of reviews of it here, mostly because we often need more range, or more amps the way we are all hot rodding everything. Weight is less than lifepo4, but not less than lipo. That is normal for limn I think.

It should be a decent battery, just not an option for me with my longer ride.
 
Yes these look like good little batteries but not much spec info about the battery at all except capacity. If your running a 250w kit then this battery will no doubt be fine but if your running a larger kit or a high amp controller then i would leave this alone as it probably wont be capable of putting out high amps.

Good thing about this is that it is a simple fix to one of the biggest challenges to an e-bike project.. and thats moving the battery weight into the triangle and securing it. And if you have a large frame then most come with 2 bottle mounting slots, one on the bottom bar and one one the seat post bar in the triangle... if you have the mounts and a healthy wallet you could always buy 2 if you need the extra range for those long rides :)
 
theRealFury said:
if you have the mounts and a healthy wallet you could always buy 2 if you need the extra range for those long rides :)

If I had a healthy wallet I'd be riding this:

XR650L9_baja_634E2F.jpg



And if my wallet were on steroids, I'd be riding this:

BMW-F-800-GS-bike-pics.jpg
 
MikeFairbanks said:
What do you think?

Mike,

I don't know enough about various battery technologies and chemistries to know what to think, but I did search out this from the owner on his forums that perhaps someone else can parse for you:

"Battery Chemistry is: LiNiCoMnO2. It is the highest energy density pound for pound and extremely safe for all types of EV's. Lithium nickel Manganese Cobalt."

If the cells in the battery are in fact the same as in the Volt or Tesla, the C-rate info should be available on-line and someone in the know should be able to tell you about the capacity of these packs. I'm just guessing, but if these cells can power and take a faster charge for a Tesla or Volt the C-rate would have to be quite decent. I did find something on the WEB about the volt using a C-rate of less than one to baby the cells and Tesla having performance modes where the C-rate could be up to 8, so likely the cells have a pretty good inherent C-rate. The Volt in particular really babies the cells to allow for an 8 year, 100,000 mile warrantee, whereby they charge to no more than 90% and discharge to no more than 25%.
 
I've no data, but I also got the idea from somewhere that these were better than the common 2c lifepo4. So a smaller size is not such a big deal.
 
I still think you are limiting yourself on voltage and pack size. I keep thinking you need a 48 15AH or perhaps a 36 15AH or 20AH Im trying to get you into the mindset that this will be your last purchase and dont settle for less cause you will have regret,

For the amount of money you are willing to spend i could set you up with lipo and make it very simple to charge. They could even fit in your triangle for a clean look.
 
icecube57 said:
...i could set you up with lipo and make it very simple to charge.

icecube,

I'm not at all trying to be aggressive here, but I'm not quite understanding what you mean? "I could set you up..." means what? You are offering to show Mike what's needed, where to get it, and how to do it, or you are offering to build the pack for a fee? Either way, you are not saying, are you, that Mike could feel confident about charging in his kid's bedroom rather than an unused fireplace, or garage firebox? I suspect that is the sort of confidence that Mike wants to have from a battery pack. I'm the same way, and that defines what we might be willing to pay, not ultimate performance.
 
Im somewhat local to Mike. Only 35 miles away. I can help him source wire and install his pack and make it pretty much idiot proof for a fraction of the cost for these inferior packs. I wouldnt charge him either.I have a friend that has tried out some of the 2C packs offered by the major vendors and we werent impressed. Either the range wasnt up to my standards or the discharge and performance want up to my standards. The only one I liked was the pack offered from Juiced Riders. Lipo has gotten a bad wrap and I havent read anyone on the forum burning their house or apt down unintentionally with Turnigy, Zippy or the Nano lipo.. Execpt for Luke but that was intentional. Alot of the lipo setups I read on this forum require all types of connections and multiple connects and disconnections for series discharge and parallel charging because they cut corners and didnt spend money for the appropriate wiring and chargers and such. Their setups work but they leave alot of room for human error. Thats why we hav KFF every few weeks. My personal full pack is 66v 20AH and I only unplug one large connector when charging and discharging. Its idiot proof. Even when it comes to balancing 12 packs its straight forward. I even charge inside my house.

A pack that I have in mind for him would be a 12s 44v 10AH or even one of the 10s 36v 10AH.This is not hard to pull off. Its not a large pack. I could even set it up to balance through a db15 connector. It will have less wires and it will be easy to manage. Ive rode my bike out where he lives several times and its a pretty big area area with hills and stuff. I want him to have good range and performance with room to upgrade for the future.
 
I asked them. Here's the answer. Quick, we need some idiot here to start a thread flaming ampedbikes for using 18650 Lithium Cobalt in ebike application.



support@ampedbikes.com to me
show details 3:53 PM (1 hour ago)
Hi Sam we use the brand new Samsung 18650 it is a lithium cobalt blend.


Thank you for contacting us!

Danny Ray
http://www.ampedbikes.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam"
To: <support@ampedbikes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:19 AM
Subject: Ampedbikes feedback


This message was sent from:
http://www.ampedbikes.com/contact.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Name of sender: Sam
------------------------- COMMENTS -------------------------

I am interested in your 36 front kit with the 12Ah 36V tube battery. I need to know what battery cell you use for that pack. Is it 18650 Lithium Manganese or 18650 Lithium Colbalt? Or is it LifePO4?

------------------------------------------------------------
 
icecube,

A fine answer that puts some things in a better perspective, for me at least. I can't say that it entirely answers to concerns that I might have (don't know about Mike) about LiPo, but it makes it appear more doable in some situations. Would your "idiot proof" setup be walk away and forget idiot proof, or need more timely steps than simply connecting to be safe, assuming the charging setup works as advertized? Another way to put it, does this include some sort of smart charging whereby nothing bad would happen if someone went to bed and forgot the batteries were charging since returning from work at suppertime?

icecube57 said:
Im somewhat local to Mike. Only 35 miles away. I can help him source wire and install his pack and make it pretty much idiot proof for a fraction of the cost for these inferior packs. I wouldnt charge him either.I have a friend that has tried out some of the 2C packs offered by the major vendors and we werent impressed. Either the range wasnt up to my standards or the discharge and performance want up to my standards. The only one I liked was the pack offered from Juiced Riders. Lipo has gotten a bad wrap and I havent read anyone on the forum burning their house or apt down unintentionally with Turnigy, Zippy or the Nano lipo.. Execpt for Luke but that was intentional. Alot of the lipo setups I read on this forum require all types of connections and multiple connects and disconnections for series discharge and parallel charging because they cut corners and didnt spend money for the appropriate wiring and chargers and such. Their setups work but they leave alot of room for human error. Thats why we hav KFF every few weeks. My personal full pack is 66v 20AH and I only unplug one large connector when charging and discharging. Its idiot proof. Even when it comes to balancing 12 packs its straight forward. I even charge inside my house.

A pack that I have in mind for him would be a 12s 44v 10AH or even one of the 10s 36v 10AH.This is not hard to pull off. Its not a large pack. I could even set it up to balance through a db15 connector. It will have less wires and it will be easy to manage. Ive rode my bike out where he lives several times and its a pretty big area area with hills and stuff. I want him to have good range and performance with room to upgrade for the future.
 
If it boiled down to me buying from any vender for simplicity and piece of mind it would be a ping battery. I actually think that if Mike would get atleast 36v 15AH ping I would leave him alone. I forget that they have have a higher voltage than SLA and less sag so even if he upgrade to a a 36v 15AH ping he would get a small speed boost and performance gain simple plug and play charging. He could put it in a frame bag on the top tube in the triangle. Im still mad he didnt use the trek Sport he had. It would have been bad ass.
 
I personally leave my pack connected to the charger at all times and have medics on the packs doing their thing. I check on them 1 once or twice a day. The charger I had in mind was a simple 3A cc cv charger that terminates charge at a target voltage and when he goes to charge the balance plug and charging plug is 1 plug and the discharge plug is totally separate.
 
icecube,

Thank you so much for your patient instruction about LiPo possibilities. I'm starting to see why you might say that LiPo has a bad rap, and from the below see how the correct construction and gear might safely make up for my congenital forgetfulness were I to go this route, i.e., be significantly idiot proof. (g)

icecube57 said:
I personally leave my pack connected to the charger at all times and have medics on the packs doing their thing. I check on them 1 once or twice a day. The charger I had in mind was a simple 3A cc cv charger that terminates charge at a target voltage and when he goes to charge the balance plug and charging plug is 1 plug and the discharge plug is totally separate.

If I could impose on you once more to assuage my idiocy or at least ignorance. 1) what do "cc" and "cv" stand for? 2) In your suggested pack for Mike, how many units of gear are involved in this charging protocol for this unified battery pack. There's a charger and balancer or is this one unit? One or two units, are they AC plug in or is an AC to DC power supply needed to power the charger and/or balancer? Is there a BMS that is part of the pack to prevent over discharge and charge ("medics on the Packs)? Is balancing something that happens each charge cycle or a special procedure every once and awhile? 3) Or to turn it into one big question, where does the smartness in this set up happen? What talks to what to assure optimum charging, the charger, the BMS or other "medics", the individual cells or cell packs? 4) And in your proposed pack is the smartness programmable by computer or controls on the units?

This is what I think I know. With a lead-acid pack the 12 volt batteries in series of however many for various multiples of 12 volt voltages are dumb and to significant degree self balancing, so the smart charger simply senses full charge at a preset max battery voltage and shuts itself off. With an LIFeO4 pack, the charger works much the same as the lead acid charger but the cell pack has a BMS, one task of which is to balance the individual cells as the whole pack comes to max voltage charge and the charger cuts out. The BMS also prevents over discharge in use. If my current understanding is correct as to lead-acid and LiFeO4, how does the LiPo pack you are suggesting to Mike differ?

I've essential asked the same thing about 3 different ways so, hopefully, you can answer relatively simply to one of them. (g) Thanks again,
 
Well assuming you have a programmable controller You could program the LVC to where the cell stays at a safe voltage during discharge when this is combined with Lipo Buzzers you shouldnt reach the bottom of the pack.

If you size your pack larger than what you can use... You will never reach the bottom of the pack.

If you have a simple speedo one of the most simple ways to ensure you dont over discharge is to automatically factor 1AH a mile. 10 Miles 10AH. Thats worse case senario and you probably will have plenty of capacity left but

If you can afford a Cycle Analyst atleast buy a Watts Up Meter or a Turnigy Watt meter. This will help you on your ride.

You could use an RC charger with balancing functions(1 Unit). The RC charger should be able to charge and balance a pack with a few button presses and automatically shut off. This option you can wire 1 plug for plug and play. There are AC charger units and there are DC units requiring a power supply. I would get Mike an AC unit. It may have a low wattage like 50-100w but if you are charging overnight and dont mind waiting 4-5 hours then this is perfect.

If you use a CC CV charger which means constant current constant voltage it will charged up to a set voltage on the charger and end indefintely float at that voltage. When used with Battery Medics you can balance while its charging. That is if its needed. This also can be wired into one plug for charging and balancing if needed.

I probably would use an RC charger for Mike.

Both routes are intimidating but can be simplified if you take the time and make the harnesses.
 
icecube57 said:
Im still mad he didnt use the trek Sport he had. It would have been bad ass.

Oh, that's the dream, man. But there's no way I'm strappin' all that SLA to my Trek Pure. No way. I'm waiting for the right combination of battery and money.

I am horrible about remembering things, so whatever it is I AM going to forget I plugged it in.
 
what if you used one of those safes that they sell in wal-mart that are like one inch thick and fire proof? I happen to have one of those. I wonder if that would make LIPO safe for me.
 
morph999 said:
what if you used one of those safes that they sell in wal-mart that are like one inch thick and fire proof? I happen to have one of those. I wonder if that would make LIPO safe for me.

Even better would be to not overcharge it or overdischarge it :p

Realistically you are not going to take all your lipo off your bike and lock it in a safe to charge it each time. If you can't manage to follow a fule rules about charging lipo, a fireproof safe wont help either.
 
I think the main thing here is that at the end of the day, if you want to plug it in and forget it (for hours, days or weeks) and want to have no worries what so ever that it will harm anything then save up for a ping 2.5 pack... People leave those plugged into the charger in their bedroom all week ready for their weekend e-bike ride with no issues. I know myself that lipo is alot safer than it used to be and is fairly resilient now but there is still that chance that something could go wrong if something is forgot about or not conencted right.
 
I agree Icecube, that a 36v 15 ah ping might be just right for him. The extra range cannot help but be handy.
 
Damn battery tech won't keep still! LiNiCoMnO2 seems to be replacing LiMn as the chemistry of choice for low end batteries. It's lighter and smaller than LiFePo but with the same reduced lifetime of 1000 cycles or so compared with 2000 for LiFePo. We're also seeing this appear in high C rating cylindrical cells as well as the low C rating pouches. For a small 36v250w geared hub motor, this means it's feasible to make baby 36v5AHr batteries that are just as high performance as RC lipo but with a BMS so they're safe and plug and play. Alternatively there are cased 36v batteries no bigger than the standard 36v10AHr but now 12, 15 or higher AHr. There may also be alternatives to Ping with something like a shrinkwrap 36v15AHr that is 2/3 the weight and volume of an equivalent Ping.

The problem is where to find all this from a reputable supplier. People like Amped bikes really don't help themselves by not giving all the details on their web sites even though I think their water bottle style battery is very neat. With BMS Battery, their stock seems to appear and disappear at random. One week they've got cheap, light, shrink wrap LiNiCoMnO2 batteries, the next week they're gone and they're pushing Headway style packs.

If you've got a 36v250w or even 36v350w motor then 36v10AHr is fine and will get you a 20 mile range with ease. Put some effort in and avoid using the motor all the time and you'll easily get 30 miles. If you want to do short distances and/or use the motor only for hillclimbing, then 36v5AHr would be fine providing it can provide enough current (and hence have a C rating of 4-5 or so).
 
jbond said:
Damn battery tech won't keep still!
Would you want it any other way? Yeah, well maybe you would if you've just purchased a 20AH Ping good for 5 years of riding and the latest and greatest jumped out at you. (g)

The problem is where to find all this from a reputable supplier.
Wait a year. Awful hard to do, I know.
 
I have a 3 year old ping. I'd replace it today if I needed to with another. It does what I need just fine. You don't have to have the latest greatest, and if it's under 16 pounds and takes you 25 miles that doesn't exactly suck.

However, if I needed more, like more amps then obviously I'd want the latest and lightest I could afford. Like the lipo I bought for racing.

It would be very cool to be able to get this newish chemistry, and still send the money to Li Ping.
 
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